Big Bang Myth

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim_Baur
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I see nothing wrong with the idea that God created everything by using a Big Bang type method.

Just because we are Catholic doesn’t mean we cannot accept scientific fact or even theories. If the Big Bang is fact, wouldn’t that just confirm God’s power and greatness? What else could create such power.

God has given us science so that we would understand his power to a greater extent and not rely on superstition to describe his works.
I was taught that God created all things by thought! he would just think things and it would happen, Why do we have to believe he made allot of noise when he did it? Even if you did believe in the big bang it would not prove there was not a higher power at all. I remember Dawins theory and it was a fluke also.
 
Just because we are Catholic doesn’t mean we cannot accept scientific fact or even theories.
I agree, but after carefull study of evolution I’m convinced that almost everything in it are
deliberately made up lies and no science at all.

Real science points to an instant creation and that’s exactly what you’d expect from Almighty God. Who doesn’t need to play tricks over billion of years.

Also the real science and common sense point to a young earth - about 6000 years old.

This fits perfectly with my Roman Catholic faith.

I’m convinced that the whole purpose of evolution is to get people to not believe in God
 
That’s a great idea for atheists. But for Catholics:

Search for God always, everywhere, all the time. Appreciate God by seeing beauty, everywhere it exists. Thank God for order (instead of chaos), everywhere it exists. Seek justice where needed, because when you do, you imitate God. Love our neighbors, even our enemies, because that also imitates God.

People find God in art, music, drama, and other fields - even mathematics. As they should. As we are told to do. We are not told to “Find God - except for science.” With whom do you think THAT idea originated?
You are missing very important distinctions. I am not denying that people find God in science or art or music and so on. The important thing is to understand the nature of art, music, science, philosophy, theology and so on, and how they differ from each other. Catholic scientists at the Vatican Observatory do not view Catholic stars. A mathematician who happens to be a devout Catholic does not do Catholic equations.

If an astronomer speaks about his belief in God as having been made stronger by or completely derived from his work in astronomy, he is not speaking “as an astronomer”, he is speaking “as a man” or “as a philosopher”. His reflections on nature that led him to a belief in God are not scientific reflections or astronomical reflections. That is where you miss the mark.

This is the Catholic understanding of the sciences in relation to religion. You seem fearful of science, but only because you do not understand it. Modern science arose only in the Christian West, science in the sense of one discovery followed by another, because of the teachings of the Catholic Church about creation and its promotion of the sciences in Medieval universities. In fact, in a Catholic University (it was the Church that originally founded the European universities) students, including seminarians had to study astronomy before they could study philosophy or theology. Think about it.
 
I agree, but after carefull study of evolution I’m convinced that almost everything in it are
deliberately made up lies and no science at all.
If that is what you believe, then one must question your claim to having made “a careful study of evolution.”
Real science points to an instant creation and that’s exactly what you’d expect from Almighty God. Who doesn’t need to play tricks over billion of years.
Real science cannot point to an instant creation, or creatio ex nihilo, because creation is a theological idea. Science does not do theology.
Also the real science and common sense point to a young earth - about 6000 years old.
This fits perfectly with my Roman Catholic faith.
If that is the case, then you better inform the Vatican, which does not agree with you. Also, write a letter to Cardinal Christoph Schonborn who said belief in a 6,000 year old Earth is “nonsense”, and the “creationism has no place in the Catholic Church.”
I’m convinced that the whole purpose of evolution is to get people to not believe in God
Do you think the purpose of Theistic Evolution “is to get people to not believe in God”?
 
The Big Bang or the origins of being transcends science.
Big Bang theory does not transcend science. It is strictly a scientific theory. I am not sure how anyone can get so confused on this matter.
 
You seem fearful of science, but only because you do not understand it.
Well, I’ve got a degree in Electrical Engineering and Applied Physics. And I used science for…35 years or so to actually design things that mostly worked as they should have.

How about you? Have you actually DONE anything with science, or do you just do “theory?”
Modern science arose only in the Christian West, science in the sense of one discovery followed by another, because of the teachings of the Catholic Church about creation and its promotion of the sciences in Medieval universities. In fact, in a Catholic University (it was the Church that originally founded the European universities) students, including seminarians had to study astronomy before they could study philosophy or theology. Think about it.
That’s true. And most of those Catholic Scientists were trying to learn more about God by learning more about his creation.

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is a good book if you care to read it.

God did not give us science so we could use it to ignore him. Everything God gave us was so that we could find him.
 
That’s true. And most of those Catholic Scientists were trying to learn more about God by learning more about his creation.

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is a good book if you care to read it.

God did not give us science so we could use it to ignore him. Everything God gave us was so that we could find him.
Define Western Civilization. How has the Catholic Church influence the politics and epistemology of the enlightenment? I do remember that Occam of the Franciscans introduced Occam’s razor which preferred parsimony over extraneous elements when choosing competing explanations. Surely the monasteries preserved some elements of Latin and Greek civilization during the so-called Dark Ages of Western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire through illuminated manuscripts in their libraries, but one can also attribute some of this preservation due to the work of Arabic scholars during the Islamic golden age. But wasn’t a main point of the Enlightenment, the embodiment of Western Civilization’s embrace of modernity, due to the merchant bourgeois who were prosperous from their commercial activities seeking liberation religious authority and respect of their property acquired through those activities from monarchic authority? Regarding capitalism, why doesn’t Calvinism receive more credit from that institution instead of Catholicism for its emphasis on outward material success as a signal for being among the predestined elect?

For more:

henryckliu.com/page60.html
 
Well, I’ve got a degree in Electrical Engineering and Applied Physics. And I used science for…35 years or so to actually design things that mostly worked as they should have.

How about you? Have you actually DONE anything with science, or do you just do “theory?”

That’s true. And most of those Catholic Scientists were trying to learn more about God by learning more about his creation.

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is a good book if you care to read it.

God did not give us science so we could use it to ignore him. Everything God gave us was so that we could find him.
Thomas Woods wrote a good book.

Other than background in computer science, I’m a bit of an amateur naturalist, scholare vagrante, theorist to boot, plus Jack of all trades but master of none.

You might be interested in an essay by Fr. Stanley L. Jaki, “Science: Western or What?” I believe the booklet is out of print. In certain of his other books, Jaki traces the specific origin of modern science to the discovery of inertial motion in the Medieval University.
 
Thomas Woods wrote a good book.

Other than background in computer science, I’m a bit of an amateur naturalist, scholare vagrante, theorist to boot, plus Jack of all trades but master of none.

You might be interested in an essay by Fr. Stanley L. Jaki, “Science: Western or What?” I believe the booklet is out of print. In certain of his other books, Jaki traces the specific origin of modern science to the discovery of inertial motion in the Medieval University.
It is okay to be a jack of all trades 🙂 . Specialization restrictions your freedom…

According to Taoist thought:
Only by not applying effort can one achieve that state in which nothing is not attainable effortlessly (wu-wei ze wu-suo-bu-wei). Every Taoist knows this famous Taoist assertion, although none can fully explain it. Translated, it reads literally: Only by avoiding effort can one achieve that state in which nothing is not attainable effortlessly. This well-known Taoist assertion, the inherent paradox of which defies logic, is still effortlessly driving modern students of Chinese philosophy insane.
A person’s role in modern economic life, when observed with detached insight, illustrates the truth of the famous Taoist dilemma of aiming to be effortless.
Before one chooses a profession, one has the option of a wide range of endeavors with which to satisfy one’s interest and to enable one to be useful in life. One can become a philosopher, an artist, a politician, a teacher, a scientist, a lawyer, a doctor, etc. As soon as one decides to be a lawyer, for example, then one can no longer afford to spend much time on other fields of endeavor, thus greatly narrowing one’s options. If, in order to be the best in one’s field, one devotes all of one’s time and effort to the study of law and nothing else, one ends up being ignorant of other aspects of life. One can therefore end up aimlessly as a useless expert. Thus the exclusive study of law may neutralize one’s original purpose which is to lead a useful life by promoting justice. For a specialization to be truly useful, it needs to be defined so inclusively that excessive specialization itself becomes a pitfall to avoid. The corollary: the desire for one’s objective will block one’s attainment of it. This is so because the distracting impact of one’s desire will obscure one’s focus on the objective itself.
henryckliu.com/page59.html
 
It is okay to be a jack of all trades 🙂 . Specialization restrictions your freedom…

According to Taoist thought:

henryckliu.com/page59.html
Aside from the trades, specializing too early in any science or discipline without first acquiring a sound liberal education narrows the mind, according the Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain.
 
Aside from the trades, specializing too early in any science or discipline without first acquiring a sound liberal education narrows the mind, according the Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain.
That raises a few questions. Why cannot a person specialise in chemistry and then later on widen his knowledge to include a “sound liberal education.”
But anyway, what is a sound liberal education? What constitutes a sound liberal education and how will it help you in life? People are questioning this because it appears that there are clergy who have had a liberal education, but have failed the test of having a good moral character. In other words, this sound liberal education did not do them any good. Whereas there are some chemists who have very high moral standards and are of good character. Yet they are lacking in this socalled sound liberal education since they have specialised in chemistry.
 
That raises a few questions. Why cannot a person specialise in chemistry and then later on widen his knowledge to include a “sound liberal education.”
There is no reason why one cannot do that. And if he missed a liberal education before specializing, then he should certainly pursue it afterward, either formally in college, or on his own making liberal education a lifetime pursuit.
But anyway, what is a sound liberal education? What constitutes a sound liberal education and how will it help you in life?
A liberal education, in contrast to vocational training which is what most colleges offer, trains the person as a person, rather than as an engineer, or nurse, and so on.

By liberal education I mean education in the liberal arts. Do not think of what the majority of colleges call a liberal arts program, which consists mostly in a smattering of introductions to various subjects, with nothing that unifies the knowledge or various discipline. One is left seeing the world through a kaleidoscope.

St. Thomas Aquinas College in Santa Paula, CA is one of the few good liberal arts colleges. If you look over their mission statement and curriculum you will get an idea of what liberal education is all about. St. John’s College in Annapolis has been another good liberal arts college. The liberal arts curriculum is based on and is a modification of the traditional education of the Catholic Medieval universities that taught the seven liberal arts. The Catholic Encyclopedia article explaining the Seven Liberal Arts education is one of the best I have found on the internet.

A true liberal arts education unifies knowledge under the principles of classical philosophy, and further so under theology.

Philosopher and educator Mortimer J. Adler has organized liberal education under “The Great Ideas Program” in which the great ideas of western civilization in all areas, science, history, poetry, philosophy, theology, and so on are studied from original sources (in translation usually) from the greatest works available in each area such as Plato and Aristotle, Thucydides and Hippocrates, Sts. Augustine and Aquinas, Dante Shakespeare, Galileo and so on. You can read up on the Great Ideas approach to liberal education here: Center for the Study of The Great Ideas.
People are questioning this because it appears that there are clergy who have had a liberal education, but have failed the test of having a good moral character. In other words, this sound liberal education did not do them any good. Whereas there are some chemists who have very high moral standards and are of good character. Yet they are lacking in this socalled sound liberal education since they have specialised in chemistry.
The clergy problem is related to the problems with many seminaries who don’t properly screen candidates, and they do not train properly in spiritual formation. Many seminaries are in a state of moral and spiritual crisis (and don’t even know it). I have known a number of seminarians that have had real problems in the seminary solely because they accepted the official teachings of the Church in matters of faith and morals. One seminarian (Dan is his first name) had difficulty getting ordained merely because he believed in the Sacraments. Yes, it is that bad in many seminaries.

So, the problem is more complicated and more serious than is realized by those who focus on liberal education.

I spoke with a college professor who teaches at a public college. He is Catholic and teaches the great books, but not from an obviously Catholic perspective since he is in a public institution… He said he has had many students convert to Catholicism just from studying the great books even though he never promoted Catholicism in the classroom.

On the other hand, education does not guarantee moral virtue. There are intellectual virtues and moral virtues. Knowledge does not automatically make one virtuous. Socrates made the mistake of thinking that if people knew the good then they would become good. He thought moral evil was just a matter of ignorance. Socrates judged the matter to quickly. More correctly, a person can be properly educated but still choose to live a life of sin. It’s called free choice, or rather an abuse of freedom.

On another note, there is a proper order to education, as St. Augustine says, “It is the duty of good education to arrive at wisdom by means of a definite order.” And Cardinal Newman said, “Education is a high word; it is the preparation for knowledge, and it is the imparting of knowledge in proportion to that preparation.” Newman also said, “I say then, if a liberal education be good, it must necessarily be useful too.”

Thus the proper order of education means a liberal education first, with its training in logic and the Socratic method of dialogue. Many of the great scientists of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century received an early liberal education. It is also known that generally one who receives a liberal education and then goes on to specialize does much better in his area of specialization than those without liberal training.

That’s my quick spiel. Hope it answered some of your questions.
 
itinerant1

itinerant1 said: "Big Bang theory does not transcend science. It is strictly a scientific theory. I am not sure how anyone can get so confused on this matter. "

The issues of the origin of the universe transcends science.

That is what I was trying to say, sorry.
 
Human reason is the creator of many tools to investigate the origins of created being.

Human reason created and developded: math, science, philosophy of science, and philosophy.

Human reason is added by revelation.

Human reason then utilizes revelation by its use of theology.

All of these should be used to investigate the origins of created being, that is, revelation, theology, math, science, philosophy and the philosophy of science.

The origins of created being transcends science.
 
Saint Gregory the Great informs us that Moses wrote a prophecy of the past. This prophecy of the past is mentioned when teaching about the origins of the universe as it was revealed to Moses.

I use this as one of my most basic principles.

This places Moses’ Genesis account into salvation history.

Moses did not write about math, science or the history of math and science.
 
itinerant1

itinerant1 said: "Big Bang theory does not transcend science. It is strictly a scientific theory…
And an inadequate one. Since the universe is expanding at an accelerating not declerating rate scientists have to graph onto the Big Bang theory a few band-aids such as “dark energy” and “dark matter” theories to hold the thing together. With too many band-aids, a theory is usually best abandoned for a new one.
 
This is from the LA Times this morning:

The $10-billion structure at Geneva collides particles at three times previous energy levels. It hopes to find smaller particles and make other physics discoveries.

This is another principle, we have many more things to find, from the smallest particles to the end of the observable universe. We do not know how small or how big the universe is.
 
Another principle, human ability to reason does not know the essence of natural laws. Our ability to reason describes the laws of nature, but does not know the essence of those laws.

As Kant said, there are possible beings that transcend our ability to even observe them.
 
Another principle that adds to the myth of the Big Bang: every assumption and every unknown adds to the myth.

We do not even know that number of unknowns. The number could be infinite.

Also, we do not know the nature of space itself.

Is space expanding?

We do not know the size of the universe.

The unknowns are unknown.

Is space’s movement causing the shift in light?

Is there beings outside the observable universe pulling the light shifts?

Are those beings coming towards us even if there pull is causing the shift in lights?

Well, the number of questions toward our quest is perhaps infinite.
 
Are the elements that we observe on earth the only elements in the universe?

Are these the only elements that have ever existed?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top