Big cultural problem for LDS church in America

[Cowboy_Pete]

Clearly you speak a different English, have a different standard of accurate representation.

The quote from fair, which I included a link to does have the word “traditional” in it.

So the fact that you linked to an accurate quote to support your grossly misleading attribution is supposed to seem what, honest?

why did he make a

If you can’t even be trusted to accurately report what was actually said, I’ve no interest in debating with you what was meant.

I’m livid.

Bon Apetit

In your dreams.

I said that if he said

“a different Jesus,”

–than the one worshiped by other Christians.
He didn’t.

You may mouth your creeds, but if you are Christian, it’s Christ’s crucifixion and atonement that’s at the heart of your worship, same as ours. Show me a person who, in the depth of torment for his sins, has cried out for God’s mercy, while focusing on Christ being co-equal and sharing in “substance” with the Father, and I’ll show you a fictional character.

The Divine Image
By a fellow-heretic named William Blake

TO Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
All pray in their distress;
And to these virtues of delight
Return their thankfulness.

For Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
Is God, our Father dear,
And Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
Is man, His child and care.

For Mercy has a human heart,
Pity a human face,
And Love, the human form divine,
And Peace, the human dress.

Then every man, of every clime,
That prays in his distress,
Prays to the human form divine,
Love, Mercy, Pity, Peace.

And all must love the human form,
In heathen, Turk, or Jew;
Where Mercy, Love, and Pity dwell
There God is dwelling too.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie taught that Christians have “a mythical Christ” (Mormon Doctrine, p.269).

As we’ve repeatedly established on this forum, Elder McConkie never could make up his mind whether he worshiped Jesus with all his might, or not at all.

If the prophet GBH’s statement was dispositive, you all would not have seen the need to all misrepresent it in exactly the same way.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie taught that Christians have “a mythical Christ” (Mormon Doctrine, p.269).

As we’ve repeatedly established on this forum, Elder McConkie never could make up his mind whether he worshiped Jesus with all his might, or not at all.

If the prophet GBH’s statement was dispositive, you all would not have seen the need to all misrepresent it in exactly the same way.​

Mainstream Christians worship the “traditional” Christ, depicted in the Bible.

Please don’t be obtuse.

You know very well that GBH does NOT believe that your “traditional” creeds protray the Christ depicted in the Bible. For you to equate Catholic Tradition to Bible is one thing; I know that’s what you believe. But for you to impute that belief to GBH mouth, is either foolish or shamefully disingenuous, and I do not believe that you are a fool. If there is a conscience between you two, I appeal to it. Retract this inflammatory false accusation.

 

[truthsave]

One thing I have learnt in this forum.
There is nothing can be said to mormons without creating this kind of things: evrybody understand everything that mormons undersand wrongly? Could be.

But at the very end what wanted to say the mormon prophet GBH with his statement then?

Maybe that out of mormonism the unrevelated message of Christ make unfaithfull Christians or what? Or that that having "just " the traditional christ make them loosing the fullness of the His word? Or you can be Christian either in believing in the traditional Christ or believing in a non traditonal Christ? Or what else.
Jesus Christ then is Jesus Christ just if you believe He is our Saviour doesn’t matter our Saviour from what and from who and what he tought. Since we have nevertheless frankly admit that Christ message for the last dispensation (I think it is called like this) and the vision of Joseph Smith have a lot of differences and if you don’t believe He needed to reveal Himself through Joseph Smith it is true that He, Jesus, would be difficult to be recognized from His new revelations given to Joseph Smith.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

But at the very end what wanted to say the mormon prophet GBH with his statement then?

GBH is saying that we do not accept the Nicene Creed or other post-NT writings as authoritative as to the nature and character of Jesus Christ.

That we are Christians, but not “traditional Christians.”

According to Catholic tradition, you should call us Christian Heretics.

Certainly our views on the Godhead are closer to yours than the Arians or the Alberginsians!

The Catholics rejected the Arian Baptism and the Albergisnian baptism, did it not?

And yet your term for them is Heretics, not “non-Christians.”

It seems a strange thing that you abandon your tradition of what Christianity means, in order to exclude us … and moreover, to do so, you’re borrowing the vocabulary and propaganda of organizations that hate you nearly as much as they hate us.

Jesus wept.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Clearly you speak a different English,

Odd how every thread re: the LDS faith eventually returns to this.

 

[twopekinguys]

Clearly you speak a different English, have a different standard of accurate representation.

So the fact that you linked to an accurate quote to support your grossly misleading attribution is supposed to seem what, honest?

If you can’t even be trusted to accurately report what was actually said, I’ve no interest in debating with you what was meant.

I’m livid.

In your dreams.

I said that if he said

–than the one worshiped by other Christians.
He didn’t.

You may mouth your creeds, but if you are Christian, it’s Christ’s crucifixion and atonement that’s at the heart of your worship, same as ours. Show me a person who, in the depth of torment for his sins, has cried out for God’s mercy, while focusing on Christ being co-equal and sharing in “substance” with the Father, and I’ll show you a fictional character.

Another case of mental gymnastics on your part I’m afraid, with a whole lot of dancing around the subject thrown in.

Yes, you said “different Jesus”. You do realize that the “traditional Christ”, and the one he said he worshiped were not the same one. He himself made a distinction that the one he worshiped was “different”. So in fact, the lds prophet at the time stated that a “different” Jesus was worshiped.

BTW, how is providing an exact quote from a pro mormon source not “accurately” reporting what was said? Are you saying that fair didn’t provide a correct quote?

 

[twopekinguys]

GBH is saying that we do not accept the Nicene Creed or other post-NT writings as authoritative as to the nature and character of Jesus Christ.

Don’t you think that if what you say is true, he would have said that? Or was he speaking a different English?

 

[truthsave]

GBH is saying that we do not accept the Nicene Creed or other post-NT writings as authoritative as to the nature and character of Jesus Christ.

That we are Christians, but not “traditional Christians.”

According to Catholic tradition, you should call us Christian Heretics.

Certainly our views on the Godhead are closer to yours than the Arians or the Alberginsians!

The Catholics rejected the Arian Baptism and the Albergisnian baptism, did it not?

And yet your term for them is Heretics, not “non-Christians.”

It seems a strange thing that you abandon your tradition of what Christianity means, in order to exclude us … and moreover, to do so, you’re borrowing the vocabulary and propaganda of organizations that hate you nearly as much as they hate us.

Jesus wept.

I appreciated your answer.
It is clear and make sense since simple and understandable.
I haven’t used the therm heretic since it is commonly charged of a wrong connotation and also historically is not very nice.
Though I still consider mormonism went much farther in their “heresy” then the “heretics” you have cited so for me was difficult to apply to them the therms of heretics and for this same reason I thought it was more elegant to refer to mormon people as Smithonians. I found this therm to be politically correct since follower of Joseph Smith revelation for them accepted as truth.

But I am still free to, for you wrongly, consider mormons not Christians I guess and to feel sadned by the use they do of the names I consider Holy in a traditional way.?

 

[twopekinguys]

You know very well that GBH does NOT believe that your “traditional” creeds protray the Christ depicted in the Bible. For you to equate Catholic Tradition to Bible is one thing; I know that’s what you believe. But for you to impute that belief to GBH mouth, is either foolish or shamefully disingenuous, and I do not believe that you are a fool. If there is a conscience between you two, I appeal to it. Retract this inflammatory false accusation.

LOL, you of all can’t be serious with this, especially after the extremely inflammatory and false and disgusting statement you made to us on another thread.

We have not imputed anything to GBH other than what he said with his own mouth. It is merely disingenuous of you to try and say that he meant something completely different that what he himself said.

That’s one of the neat things about the modern age. You say it, it’s recorded, and it is credited to that individual for all time. It makes it a lot harder to wiggle out of things later.
Kind of like Packer’s speech at a recent conference that was changed after he spoke.
abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/UPDATE-Packer-makes-changes-to-sermon-regarding/OecTkSc980K76VXGKo2bSg.cspx
If Packer could change his speech to “clarify” his intent, why didn’t GBH?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Don’t you think that if what you say is true, he would have said that? Or was he speaking a different English?

Clearly a different English than what’s spoken in Peking. But I suspect that says more about you than it says about GBH.

I appreciated your answer.
It is clear and make sense since simple and understandable.
I haven’t used the therm heretic since it is commonly charged of a wrong connotation and also historically is not very nice.
Though I still consider mormonism went much farther in their “heresy” then the “heretics” you have cited so for me was difficult to apply to them the therms of heretics and for this same reason I thought it was more elegant to refer to mormon people as Smithonians. I found this therm to be politically correct since follower of Joseph Smith revelation for them accepted as truth.

But I am still free to, for you wrongly, consider mormons not Christians I guess?

I understand and appreciate that you prefer “non Christian” to “Christian heretic” because the word Heretic sounds offensive to you. But I tell you that I would rather be called heretic, or any number of offensive words, than have my faith and the faith of my fathers called “not Christian.” Nevertheless, you’re free to say so, and it’s no bar to our being friends.

But if you claimed that GBH said that we weren’t Christians, or that GBH saod we worship a “different Jesus” than the biblical Jesus, then I would not trust you enough to buy groceries from you, let alone to be friends.

 

[twopekinguys]

Clearly a different English than what’s spoken in Peking. But I suspect that says more about you than it says about GBH.

.

LOL, and we’re the ones speaking a different English…LOL

Try reading where we’re from. You realize Illinois is part of the US right?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

LOL, you of all can’t be serious with this, especially after the extremely inflammatory and false and disgusting statement you made to us on another thread.

What I said was entirely subjective, and I didn’t say what you pretended that I’d said, i.e. that you weren’t “patriotic.” I never questioned your patriotism. I questioned your commitment to the first amendment. If that hurt your feelings, then cry me a river. Also, I didn’t make that remark to both of you; I wasn’t even aware at the time that you were One Odd in Two Persons.

 

[twopekinguys]

What I said was entirely subjective, and I didn’t say what you pretended that I’d said, i.e. that you weren’t “patriotic.” I never questioned your patriotism. I questioned your commitment to the first amendment. If that hurt your feelings, then cry me a river. Also, I didn’t make that remark to both of you; I wasn’t even aware at the time that you were One Odd in Two Persons.

You don’t think calling someone un-American is not calling them un-Patriotic? Not to mention calling us un-christian.

You’ll notice, that you are the one making personal attacks toward other posters. I haven’t seen where anyone has gotten that personal, or attacked you in a similar way.

But then again, why didn’t GBH correct his statement if he meant something different than what he actually said? That is just one of several questions you have failed to answer.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

But then again, why didn’t GBH correct his statement if he meant something different than what he actually said? That is just one of several questions you have failed to answer.

I did answer it. Twice. To you I said that it’s futile to discuss motives with someone who has no respect for the underlying facts. I did however discuss motives with another poster whose honesty I’m more confident of.

You don’t think calling someone un-American is not calling them un-Patriotic?.

There you go mangling quotes again. Calling someone “un-American” indeed means unpatrotic, but that’s not what I said. I never called you “un-American.” I called you a bad American. I’m only repeating that statement here to correct your misrepresentation.

Please take the last word again, if you can do so without misrepresenting me, and then leave me alone. You know what I think of you, and there’s no need for me to repeat it. If you want to change my mind about, then show a different side of yourself. The veteran card does not excuse all sins; Timothy McVeigh was a veteran, but I’d call him a bad American, and a bad human being.

 

[twopekinguys]

There you go mangling quotes again. I didn’t call you “un-American.” I called you a bad American. I never questioned Tim McVeigh’s patriotism either.

Please take the last word again, and then leave me alone. You know what I think of you, and there’s no need for me to repeat it. If you want to change my mind about, then show a different side of yourself. The veteran card does not excuse all sins; Timothy McVeigh was a veteran.

Again with the snide personal attacks, and I’m afraid it is you that is mangling quotes. You most definitely used the words un-American. Maybe you’re trying to pull a Packer here and rewrite what you actually said.

Also, I notice you are still sidestepping the questions that have been posed to you previously.

You know, there is a little function that you can avail yourself of, and that is the ignore feature. If you don’t like the truth’s and questions that we have posed to you, then by all means, please use it.

Just remember one last thing. Veterans, good and bad, fought and died for you, and everyone else in this country whether we agree with you or not.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Again with the snide personal attacks, and I’m afraid it is you that is mangling quotes. You most definitely used the words un-American.

Then you’d better link to it, because you’re already on the record on this thread for grossly misrepresenting the GBH quote. Your attribution credit is sagging.

 

[twopekinguys]

Then you’d better link to it, because you’re already on the record on this thread for grossly misrepresenting the GBH quote. Your attribution credit is sagging.

So, quoting GBH from fair is “grossly misrepresenting”? LOL

You know full well your quote was pulled, as well as my response due to moderator intervention, so nice try.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Just remember one last thing. Veterans, good and bad, fought and died for you, and everyone else in this country whether we agree with you or not.

I do remember that. It doesn’t give you a license to misrepresent me. And it’s clear from what you said on the other thread that you didn’t exactly have my personal civil liberties on your mind when you fought for the country. But if you didn’t scare me, I might very well feel grateful on behalf of the country.

 

[twopekinguys]

I do remember that. It doesn’t give you a license to misrepresent me. And it’s clear from what you said on the other thread that you didn’t exactly have my personal civil liberties on your mind when you fought for the country. But if you didn’t scare me, I might very well feel grateful on behalf of the country.

They gymnastics you perform just amaze me.

IF you remember, I actually defended you on that thread. Then you turn around and say what you said?

You have done what many mormons due, and that is when you cannot adequately defend your position, you turn it personal, and/or drag the thread so far off topic that it no longer addresses the issue. (just like you’ve done here)

Why didn’t GBH correct what he said, just like Packer changing his conference speech?

I have not misrepresented what you or GBH said, and you know it.