Big cultural problem for LDS church in America

[Cowboy_Pete]

So, quoting GBH from fair is “grossly misrepresenting”? LOL

It is, when you take out the word “traditional”

You know full well your quote was pulled, as well as my response due to moderator intervention, so nice try

Actually I didn’t know that. That explains why you feel free to misrepresent.

No, I know the difference between unamerican and bad american.

And I assure you that despite our differences, that I would speak loudly on your behalf if anyone ever called you “unamerican.” I do give your service at least that much respect!

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

They gymnastics you perform just amaze me.

IF you remember, I actually defended you on that thread.

Yes you did, and yes, I do remember it. And whether you believe it or not, I’m still grateful for that. But your later accusations were completely off the deep end. I can only assume that you switched posters.

you turn it personal,

Surely one of you two understands that when you accuse someone of being part of some satanic soul-stealing cult, and say they need to be put down by law, it’s already personal.

 

[twopekinguys]

It is, when you take out the word “traditional”

Actually I didn’t know that. That explains why you feel free to misrepresent.

No, I know the difference between unamerican and bad american.

And I assure you that despite our differences, that I would speak loudly on your behalf if anyone ever called you “unamerican.” I do give your service at least that much respect!

I never took the word “traditional” out. Now who is misrepresenting?

Keep telling yourself whatever helps you believe you said bad american. It’s ok, whatever gets you through the night. Just so you know, if you say either of those words to a Vet, it will never turn out good.

 

[twopekinguys]

Surely one of you two understands that when you accuse someone of being part of some satanic soul-stealing cult, and say they need to be put down by law, it’s already personal.

Whoa…pull up there Cowboy!!

I/we have NEVER said such a thing, or even implied it. I would love to see that quote, if it exists.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Maybe you’re trying to pull a Packer here and rewrite what you actually said.

Packer didn’t rewrite what he said; it’s **obvious **that the church censored him, just as the Church demanded that Elder McConkie edit his unfair and inaccurate accusations against the Catholic Church. You think that’s a bad thing? I don’t. On the contrary, I wish that they’d rewrite Elder Packer’s talks more often. But then, I’m a bad mormon for saying so out loud. Note that’s not the same thing as saying I’m “not a mormon.”

Is the distinction coming clear to you now? I keep hoping that your sense of humor and common sense is going to kick in.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Whoa…pull up there Cowboy!!

I/we have NEVER said such a thing, or even implied it.

I was certain that you implied exactly with the links that you were posting. If I confused you with someone else on that thread, then what I said was indeed inappropriate, and I apologize. But if you did post those links, and did not intend to imply that mormons were some sort of satanic soul-stealing cult, then you should be more careful what you link to.

Again, I did not call you “unamerican,” and would never use that word against any US veteran. I also said “bad Christian” but that actually means the same thing as “unChristian,” so that’s what’s called “a distinction without a difference.”

 

[twopekinguys]

Packer didn’t rewrite what he said; it’s **obvious **that the church censored him, just as the Church demanded that Elder McConkie edit his unfair and inaccurate accusations against the Catholic Church. You think that’s a bad thing? I don’t. On the contrary, I wish that they’d rewrite Elder Packer’s talks more often. But then, I’m a bad mormon for saying so out loud. Note that’s not the same thing as saying I’m “not a mormon.”

Is the distinction coming clear to you now? I keep hoping that your sense of humor and common sense is going to kick in.

The thing is, with Packer’s quote, you have what was televised, and recorded on video, then you have the corrected/sanitized, more politically correct version that is in print, and will be kept, and taught by the lds.

You don’t have the same thing with GBH’s quote, even though that option was clearly available to him.

How many times have we heard that what was said at a speech couldn’t have really been what was said because it was transcribed wrong? (there used to be an lds poster on here that used that defense constantly)

Somehow, somewhere, down the food chain, there is going to be Joe Everyday Mormon that will think the video was doctored, and the written speech is correct.

At best it will turn into a theological and PR nightmare, just like the whole black and the priesthood thing. We all know they were denied the priesthood for a period of time, now they can. Unfortunately, there are young everyday mormons who don’t believe it is true, and think the person pointing it out is lying, and/or persecuting them.

See the dilema?

 

[twopekinguys]

I was certain that you implied exactly with the links that you were posting. If I confused you with someone else on that thread, then what I said was indeed inappropriate, and I apologize. But if you did post those links, and did not intend to imply that mormons were some sort of satanic soul-stealing cult, then you should be more careful what you link to.

Again, I did not call you “unamerican,” and would never use that word against any US veteran.

Apology accepted.

I disagree with the whole baptize the dead thing (but that’s on another thread), because I think it will give future generations the wrong impression. To the everyday person seeing that their long lost relative had this stuff done is going to make it look like they converted at some point. That is why it riles up the Jewish community so bad, and I agree with them.

But then again, all of that is for another thread.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

You don’t have the same thing with GBH’s quote, even though that option was clearly available to him.

No need to revise. His meaning was clear to anyone who wasn’t out to mangle, or to foolishly assume that mormins think that tradition = Bible.

The thing is, with Packer’s quote, you have what was televised, and recorded on video, then you have the corrected/sanitized, more politically correct version that is in print, and will be kept, and taught by the lds.

Do you really believe in them black helicopters? You think that Mormons don’t know that the church censored Packer? Think, man. The video is still accessible, and the difference sends the message that Packer said X, but the Church says Y. That frustrates the haters because it makes it harder for you to claim that any one church leader’s opinion represents the whole church.

How many times have we heard that what was said at a speech couldn’t have really been what was said because it was transcribed wrong? (there used to be an lds poster on here that used that defense constantly)

Uh, for talks given 150 years ago? Kind of different now that we have the audio version, doncha think?

Somehow, somewhere, down the food chain, there is going to be Joe Everyday Mormon that will think the video was doctored, and the written speech is correct.

Wow, you’ve got the whole conspiracy theory all mapped out. You’d better check if Ed Decker is hiring. At least for the Protestant half of you.

We all know they were denied the priesthood for a period of time, now they can. Unfortunately, there are young everyday mormons who don’t believe it is true, and think the person pointing it out is lying, and/or persecuting them.

No; the only time you approach persecution is when you try to use the law to suppress our Temple worship. But I’m just scared what you’ll do when you realize that your lawyers have taken you for a ride and that you’ve got no recourse. Sorry, man, this isn’t 1840s Illinois, and your state govt is still ashamed of its betrayal of everything this country stands for during that period.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Apology accepted.

Thank you.

On seeing that, I deleted my angry retort to something else that you’d said, not out of desire for “political correctness” but because I’d rather make peace with you if that is possible.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

You don’t have the same thing with GBH’s quote, even though that option was clearly available to him.

No need to revise. I think his meaning was quite clearly to say that we reject the creeds.

The thing is, with Packer’s quote, you have what was televised, and recorded on video, then you have the corrected/sanitized, more politically correct version that is in print, and will be kept, and taught by the lds.

If you don’t think that Mormon realize that the church censored Packer, then please run a search of the mormon blogosphere. The video is still accessible, and the difference sends the message that Packer said X, but the Church says Y. I think that’s a good thing.

How many times have we heard that what was said at a speech couldn’t have really been what was said because it was transcribed wrong? (there used to be an lds poster on here that used that defense constantly)

Given the horrid standards of 19th century journalism in general, and of mormon 19th century record keepers in particular, that’s quite plausible for then. Less so for now, now that we have audio and video.

Somehow, somewhere, down the food chain, there is going to be Joe Everyday Mormon that will think the video was doctored, and the written speech is correct.

I doubt that very much. Those that remain aware of the discrepancy, will know why it exists.

We all know they were denied the priesthood for a period of time, now they can. Unfortunately, there are young everyday mormons who don’t believe it is true, and think the person pointing it out is lying, and/or persecuting them.

I’m unaware of any such mormons-in-denial. There are some who aren’t aware of our unfortunate racist history, just as there are Catholics who aren’t aware of some unfortunate incidents in your past. I don’t use the latter example to excuse us, but rather to say that yes, we’re all human and God’s not done with any of us.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I disagree with the whole baptize the dead thing (but that’s on another thread), because I think it will give future generations the wrong impression. To the everyday person seeing that their long lost relative had this stuff done is going to make it look like they converted at some point.

If that’s your only concern, do you think there might be another solution than suppressing our temple worship? What if we put into the records “baptized by proxy” rather than “baptized,” etc? Because whether you believe it or not, the church has no interest in trying to change your ancestors’ mortal history, or to deceive future generations about who chose to get baptized. We perform the long, sometimes tedious, geneaology and temple work because we believe God has commanded us to do this for the whole human race. Not to rewrite history.

That is why it riles up the Jewish community so bad,

Well no. Not all Jews have the same opinion of our sacred rites. Some Jews don’t care; some Jews share the history concern that you articulated, some Jews actually have some weird superstitious belief that mormon rituals are a dangerous form of necromancy that must be stopped, Constitution be damned. And some Jews (and many who pretend to be concerned for Jews) want to force changes on what we do in our sacred places, even though they know very well that it doesn’t affect them.

How would you feel if someone tried to pass a law saying that you weren’t allowed to pray for or light a candle for holocaust victims? Because that’s essentially what’s being proposed here.