big difference between Catholics and Protestants

[rinnie]

In so much as the pope is infallible when he speaks from the throne of St. Peter…I don’t believe he is. Your own doctrine makes no claims to infalliablilty outside of speaking from the Throne of Saint Peter. Throughout history there have been some pretty bad popes. However the current pope and John Paul II are and were very holy and good men. They set an amazing example of faith and hope for the rest of the world. I believe that they probably are a lot closer to God than I am. But honestly they should be…that’s their JOB. They spend there entire day everyday devoted to doing God’s work…I would hope they are closer to him than I am. That being said…I’ve also met protestant clergy that were amzing examples of faith and hope too.

I see that more than sacraments and theology…most protestants have more of an issue with the exclusionary nature of the Catholic Church than all the other stuff. That’s my biggest issue. I really don’t worry too much about if the Pope really is infallible or not, or if Mary was born without sin or not, or if marriage is a sacrament or a covenant…I don’t honestly care about it that much. I do care about the fact that my pastors are more than willing to work with my interfaith marriage, but my husbands priest is not.

I understand. And you are correct the Pope is human as far as personal opinion. But his authority to teach us the true gospel is something I myself take very true to heart. I understand there were mistakes by Popes but never in the teaching of scripture. But did Jesus not warn us. But he said his Church would prevail and has. And to be honest it does bother me when people can say the Mother of Christ is full of Sin, But I figure those words will never come out of my mouth. THey can go to their grave with it. I know she was free from sin. Thats all that counts. I cannot comment on your Husbands Priest for I have no right. Nor know the facts. But I do believe in the Church. My husband was protestant when we married and we had a really cool Priest. He had no problem with it. I will pray for you and your husband though. God Bless.

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 18:15-18 15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

He said that to Peter but it wasn’t just unique to Peter. It was true of all the other Apostles, it’s true of all preachers, it’s true of all of us.

I agree that it was not directed only to Peter, but to all the Apostles. Interesting that they seem to have misunderstood what He meant, and He was too weak or disinterested in the Church to correct their misunderstanding. The Apostles believe He had given them authority, and that it should be passed on just as He ordained them. Since the beginning, this has been the purview of the bishops, ordained by successors of the Apostles. How is it that Jesus was unable to make any of the Apostles and the early fathers of the church aware of their mistake? How did He inspire the scripture, and reveal the canon, and leave them in the dark about the forgiveness of sins?

The rabbis used to say, “If you don’t repent your sin is bound to you. If you do, it’s loosed from you.” That’s an old rabbinical concept. The rabbis/teachers would say, “You obey the Law, you’re free. You disobey the Law, you’re bound in sin.” And that’s what that’s saying.

He is, indeed. However, to follow this instruction, one has to be able to find the “church”, which means it must be visible. When we ask how this was done, what do we find?

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. Ignatius Letter to Smyrna ch. 8 AD110

Sounds to me like it applies to those who are in union with the successors of the Apostles, and no others.

In other words, when you say to someone…“You won’t repent, you’re bound in your sin,” heaven is in agreement with that. You’re doing on earth what has been done in heaven, like the disciples’ prayer says. And if you say to someone, “You know, I want to tell you, because of your confession of faith in Jesus Christ and your affirmation that He’s your Savior and Lord, your sins are loosed from you, you are forgiven,” and when you said that you know you’re saying on earth what heaven has already said.

I agree with this, but there are also much more complex matters with regard to sin and forgiveness. I think a study of the nature of mortal sin makes this clear.

 

[guanophore]

In so much as the pope is infallible when he speaks from the throne of St. Peter…I don’t believe he is.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said that the Spirit would lead the Church into “all Truth”?

Your own doctrine makes no claims to infalliablilty outside of speaking from the Throne of Saint Peter.

This is not true. We also accept the councils as infallible.

…most protestants have more of an issue with the exclusionary nature of the Catholic Church than all the other stuff. That’s my biggest issue.

Can you please explain what you mean by this?

I do care about the fact that my pastors are more than willing to work with my interfaith marriage, but my husbands priest is not.

What do you mean by “work with”? Does the Catholic Church consider your current marriage invalid?

 

[Newbie2]

Why do you keep repeating this over and over again, bigger and bigger text? And exactly what are you meaning? Seriously if no one is answering your question, yelling it louder and louder isn’t going to help.

I wonder too. Perhaps it would help if he or she would give an example of how he or she thinks Moral matters differ significantly between Catholics and protestants.

 

[rinnie]

It is a sad fact that many Catholics do not understand their baptism, and are poorly catechized about what it means, and how to live it out.

You know guanophore I used to agree with this, but to be honest I really don’t anymore. I will tell you why. Alot of Catholic’s like myself included always knew the faith. But I just didn’t realize how I knew it. But you go to church day in and day out throughout your life, things do sink in. I found that to be the case with me. I knew it, just did not know how to defend it, was talking in another thread about this.

We were never taught to defend it. I would be asked where is this or that in the bible I would say give me time I will find it. And you know what It was always there too. If anything, in defending it was like a way to prove my faith to others but also to myself.

But here is the main difference between catholic’s and every other Religion. And I know this is going to get me into alot of trouble but I cant help it, its the truth, Here it is

WE NEVER QUESTIONED OUR FAITH. WE NEVER EVER HAD A NEED TO. CATHOLICS HAVE A FAITH LIKE NONE OTHER ITS JUST PURE CLEAN UNREAL FAITH IN GOD THAT IS JUST WHAT IT IS. BLIND TRUE FAITH!

 

[Church_Militant]

In so much as the pope is infallible when he speaks from the throne of St. Peter…I don’t believe he is. Your own doctrine makes no claims to infallibility outside of speaking from the Throne of Saint Peter.

Your lack of belief does not change the fact that the vast majority of the doctrines of Christianity are those that have been affirmed, explained, and defended by the popes.

Naturally, His Holiness is not infallible in weather and football score predictions.

Throughout history there have been some pretty bad popes.

Just as there have been some equally bad Protestants and n-Cs over the last 500 years. King James was no angel, Martin Luther, Cromwell, etc…

However the current pope and John Paul II are and were very holy and good men. They set an amazing example of faith and hope for the rest of the world. I believe that they probably are a lot closer to God than I am. But honestly they should be…that’s their JOB. They spend there entire day everyday devoted to doing God’s work…I would hope they are closer to him than I am. That being said…I’ve also met protestant clergy that were amazing examples of faith and hope too.

I agree except that that is not just their job, it’s their vocation and calling from God. Still, I have shared your experience as well.

I see that more than sacraments and theology…most protestants have more of an issue with the exclusionary nature of the Catholic Church than all the other stuff.

We don’t see it as exclusionary at all. It is in fact a witness to the truth. To do any less would be unfaithful to God.

That’s my biggest issue. I really don’t worry too much about if the Pope really is infallible or not, or if Mary was born without sin or not, or if marriage is a sacrament or a covenant…I don’t honestly care about it that much.

This harks back to the unscriptural n-C belief that some beliefs are peripheral, or “non core”. Yet how can one grow up in the faith and not resolve these issues?

I do care about the fact that my pastors are more than willing to work with my interfaith marriage, but my husbands priest is not.

That would depend upon what you are asking for. If it is intercommunion, that is out of the question as Pope John Paul II explained in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (see paragraphs 43-46). Perhaps whatever these issues with your husband’s pastor are should be the topic of another thread where we can better address them

 

[SIA]

What did I say that offended you? I just stated what I have read on here for the last 2 years, and just what I saw to be the biggest issues. What statements did you disagree with?

I disagree with the large melting pot that you and so many others here wish to put all Protestants in despite the huge differences between many of them. I think what is most important to you is that to Catholics, Protestants are just Protestants no matter what they believe. You do not even wish to educate yourself on what some Protestants believe compatred to what others believe.

 

[Alix1912]

What do you think Jesus meant when He said that the Spirit would lead the Church into “all Truth”?

This is not true. We also accept the councils as infallible.

Your lack of belief does not change the fact that the vast majority of the doctrines of Christianity are those that have been affirmed, explained, and defended by the popes.

Naturally, His Holiness is not infallible in weather and football score predictions.

I agree except that that is not just their job, it’s their vocation and calling from God. Still, I have shared your experience as well.

The Holy Spirit will lead and guide us here on earth. Just not always through the Pope. The Holy Spirit and the Pope are not the same entity. And many popes have defended the faith…AS have priests, protestant pastors, and normal everyday people. Defense and affirmation of doctrine doesn’t make one infallible. Just because I don’t believe that the pope is infallible doesn’t mean I don’t believe in many of the doctrines they have defended.

Refering to it as a job was meant a little tongue and cheek. I believe anyone called to the ministry is answering a vocation, and should be deeply respected for the sacrifices and service they give.

Just as there have been some equally bad Protestants and n-Cs over the last 500 years. King James was no angel, Martin Luther, Cromwell, etc…

I would never deny that there are bad people of every race, color creed, and religon. However, I really don’t think that Martin Luther should be lumped in with Cromwell. Seriously, you type that and a couple sentences later wonder…why do protestants think we are exclusionary jerks sometimes. I’ll give you that Luther did have some scathing things to say about Jewish people…but so do Catholic rulings of that time as well. You can call him what you will, but even the Vatican has to admit that many of the points he raised were very valid criticisms of the church at the time, and that the church of the time failed to address them until it was too late.

We don’t see it as exclusionary at all. It is in fact a witness to the truth. To do any less would be unfaithful to God.This harks back to the unscriptural n-C belief that some beliefs are peripheral, or “non core”. Yet how can one grow up in the faith and not resolve these issues?

Of course you don’t see yourselfs as exclusionary…you’re a member and have the seceret decoder ring and everything. However, when you are treated like a little evil heretic who came lure away good Catholic Boys, and that any children you have must be sheltered and protected from you and your evil protestant ways, you kinda feel excluded. Course after that treatment…I really don’t want to belong.

As to not really caring about certain doctrinal things that much. I have my beliefs about Mary, Papal Infalliability, etc. However God asks us to believe in him, to live our lives as Christians, and to acknowledge Christ as our saviour. Our first and primary concern is to do this and worry about our own salvation. I don’t think God is going to deny Salvation to someone because they didn’t believe the Pope was infalliable, or that Mary was an eternal virgin, or saw their marriage as a covenant. I think he is looking for something more from us as his people than debating things like this. Not that it’s not important at all…it’s just that some many other things are so much more important in the grand scheme of salvation.

What do you mean by “work with”? Does the Catholic Church consider your current marriage invalid?

My marriage went through Radical Sanation (sp?). What I mean by work with is…no Lutheran pastors upon meeting my husband and finding out he is Catholic, their first response is not to GASP and go “YOU ARE RAISING THE KIDS LUTHERAN”. (BTW we don’t even have kids yet) Which has pretty much been how every priest and parishoner in the local parish has reacted. The Lutheran pastors have simple welcomed us to their church and expressed how glad they are that we are there. There has been no pressure on my husband to convert or go along with it from my church (from my mother…that’s another story), but there certainly has been that pressure put on me by his church. So yeah, it is exclusionary, and they don’t try and work with you that much.

Perhaps whatever these issues with your husband’s pastor are should be the topic of another thread where we can better address them

Been there done that…was sort of useful, but didn;t really help the situation all that much.

It’s funny how in college I was the first to jump in and defend my Catholic friends from the ultra non denoms who would utter all sorts of misinformation. Their ignorance and intolerance drove me nuts. I appreciated the beauty and tradition that the Catholic Church had to offer, and admired the faith of the people I knew who were Catholic. Now that I realize that ignorance can be found on both sides, and that I have been a victim of some pretty intolerant behavior myself, I have to say my admiration has dimmed a bit. It’s also the reason why I will push to not have any children raised Catholic. I would never want a furture DIL or SIL put through what I have gone through.

So I guess I stand by my statement that the doctrinal differences are not what most mainstream protestants have against the Catholic Church it is their exclusionary attitude that we have the most issues with.

 

[Alix1912]

I disagree with the large melting pot that you and so many others here wish to put all Protestants in despite the huge differences between many of them. I think what is most important to you is that to Catholics, Protestants are just Protestants no matter what they believe. You do not even wish to educate yourself on what some Protestants believe compatred to what others believe.

I concure whole heartly. I particulary like the post on another thread that seemed to infer that the word Puritan was merely a different word for Protestant.

Off topic…Thames Swim Team…assuming that means converting to the Church of England?

I guess all call myself a Wittenburg Resident for Life. Born Lutheran…staying that way.

 

[SIA]

I concure whole heartly.

Off topic…Thames Swim Team…assuming that means converting to the Church of England?

I guess all call myself a Wittenburg Resident for Life. Born Lutheran…staying that way.

God bless you for your strong faith in Christ.

 

[a_priori]

Born Lutheran…staying that way.

Is that part of the human genome?

 

[Alix1912]

Is that part of the human genome?

I don’t think so . But it would be cool if being Christian was part of the Human Genome…

 

[Alix1912]

God bless you for your strong faith in Christ.

Thank you, God Bless you as well for your strong faith too.

 

[rinnie]

I disagree with the large melting pot that you and so many others here wish to put all Protestants in despite the huge differences between many of them. I think what is most important to you is that to Catholics, Protestants are just Protestants no matter what they believe. You do not even wish to educate yourself on what some Protestants believe compatred to what others believe.

I do not feel that we put protestants in a large melting pot. That is your opinion of me. But you really don’t know what I think. . Over 50% of my friends are protestant. And I love them. I married a protestant for goodness sake. I just don’t agree with any faith that leaves the CC. But I still love the People. You act like if someone is protestant I dislike them or something. I just don’t see eye to eye with them on their faith is all. What is a Protestant, a faith that protests the CC. A true Catholic will never be swayed from their Church. If so not for long. It is the true Church. Do you deny that it is the Church that Peter started. I never said I disagree with everything in the faith, ALot of it is the same as ours. But if Christ started the Church why would I feel that I could change it. I can’t. There is no need to be bitter or mean because I do not agree with your faith. You disagree with mine and that is fine. What I love about the RCC is it is the bible. It has it all. And in the bible it says to stay true to your church. Why does that upset you so bad? Where does it say in the bible that someone will come along and change your Church? IT does not. But does it say there will be trials yes it does, And has it happened yes it has. And is it still here, Yes it is. Just like Jesus said.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit will lead and guide us here on earth. Just not always through the Pope. The Holy Spirit and the Pope are not the same entity.

Of course! Was there something we said that made you think we believed otherwise?

 And many popes have defended the faith....AS have priests, protestant pastors, and normal everyday people.   Defense and affirmation of doctrine doesn't make one infallible.

Of course! Was there something we said that made you think we believed otherwise?

Just because I don’t believe that the pope is infallible doesn’t mean I don’t believe in many of the doctrines they have defended.

It appears to me that you may have a very strange view of what infallibility means in this context.

It is likely that you disagree with some concept that is not taught at all by the church.

You can call him what you will, but even the Vatican has to admit that many of the points he raised were very valid criticisms of the church at the time, and that the church of the time failed to address them until it was too late.

It is not the criticism, but his solutions that were the problem.

Of course you don't see yourselfs as exclusionary....you're a member and have the seceret decoder ring and everything. :p  However, when you are treated like a little evil heretic who came lure away good Catholic Boys, and that any children you have must be sheltered and protected from you and your evil protestant ways, you kinda feel excluded.  Course after that treatment.....I really don't want to belong.

Is that what you meant by exclusionary? If so, I am not sure anything can be done about that. It is necessary to try to protect people from falling into error.

My marriage went through Radical Sanation (sp?). What I mean by work with is…no Lutheran pastors upon meeting my husband and finding out he is Catholic, their first response is not to GASP and go “YOU ARE RAISING THE KIDS LUTHERAN”. (BTW we don’t even have kids yet) Which has pretty much been how every priest and parishoner in the local parish has reacted. The Lutheran pastors have simple welcomed us to their church and expressed how glad they are that we are there. There has been no pressure on my husband to convert or go along with it from my church (from my mother…that’s another story), but there certainly has been that pressure put on me by his church. So yeah, it is exclusionary, and they don’t try and work with you that much.

Thank you fore explaining this. It seems that you are saying that he is included in the Lutheran community, but you are not equally included in the Catholic, and that amounts to exclusion. Is that right?

  Now that I realize that ignorance can be found on both sides, and that I have been a victim of some pretty intolerant behavior myself, I have to say my admiration has dimmed a bit.    It's also the reason why I will push to not have any children raised Catholic.   I would never want a furture DIL or SIL put through what I have gone through.

This is a sad fact.

So I guess I stand by my statement that the doctrinal differences are not what most mainstream protestants have against the Catholic Church it is their exclusionary attitude that we have the most issues with.

I think what you seem to be desrcribing as “exclusionary” is really the evidence of the doctrinal differences. I think the Church sees the failure of a Catholic parent to raise their child in the faith is allowing the child to fall into heresy, and possibly lose salvation as a result.

 

[guanophore]

But if Christ started the Church why would I feel that I could change it.  I can't.

You might, like the Reformers, look at the people that claim to be members of it and see very little or nothing of what Christ’s Church is supposed to look like!

 

[NonCatholic]

Few or Many?; remnant theology?
This is the real question; are you part of the FEW or the MANY?

Matthew 7:13-14 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are** few** who find it.

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.”

Luke 13:23-24 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there a **few **who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.”

Matthew 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.} 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.”

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.”

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.”

 

[Salonika]

Alix1912:

So I guess I stand by my statement that the doctrinal differences are not what most mainstream protestants have against the Catholic Church it is their exclusionary attitude that we have the most issues with.

Think many people find an exclusionary attitude (in the sense we are the only ones that have the truth) difficult whatever the organisation. I certainly do.

I do not feel there can be a proper respectful discussion when the other side of the conversation is only discussing the topic with the intention of changing the other person’s views.

 

[SIA]

I do not feel that we put protestants in a large melting pot. That is your opinion of me. But you really don’t know what I think. . Over 50% of my friends are protestant. And I love them. I married a protestant for goodness sake. I just don’t agree with any faith that leaves the CC. But I still love the People. You act like if someone is protestant I dislike them or something. I just don’t see eye to eye with them on their faith is all. What is a Protestant, a faith that protests the CC. A true Catholic will never be swayed from their Church. If so not for long. It is the true Church. Do you deny that it is the Church that Peter started. I never said I disagree with everything in the faith, ALot of it is the same as ours. But if Christ started the Church why would I feel that I could change it. I can’t. There is no need to be bitter or mean because I do not agree with your faith. You disagree with mine and that is fine. What I love about the RCC is it is the bible. It has it all. And in the bible it says to stay true to your church. Why does that upset you so bad? Where does it say in the bible that someone will come along and change your Church? IT does not. But does it say there will be trials yes it does, And has it happened yes it has. And is it still here, Yes it is. Just like Jesus said.

I do know how you feel. You used alot of words to merely say that Protestants are all the same in your eyes. That is exactly what I said in my previous post that you refuted.

 

[Alix1912]

Of course! Was there something we said that made you think we believed otherwise?

Of course! Was there something we said that made you think we believed otherwise?

Please re read my posts and the responses to them…Your response to my statement about not believing in papal infallibility was: “What do you think Jesus meant when He said that the Spirit would lead the Church into “all Truth”?”

It appears to me that you may have a very strange view of what infallibility means in this context.

It is likely that you disagree with some concept that is not taught at all by the church.

Again please reread posts and responses.

Posted by Church Militant
Your lack of belief does not change the fact that the vast majority of the doctrines of Christianity are those that have been affirmed, explained, and defended by the popes.

Is that what you meant by exclusionary? If so, I am not sure anything can be done about that. It is necessary to try to protect people from falling into error.

Thank you fore explaining this. It seems that you are saying that he is included in the Lutheran community, but you are not equally included in the Catholic, and that amounts to exclusion. Is that right?

I think what you seem to be desrcribing as “exclusionary” is really the evidence of the doctrinal differences. I think the Church sees the failure of a Catholic parent to raise their child in the faith is allowing the child to fall into heresy, and possibly lose salvation as a result.

Are you saying that Salvation is a Catholics only thing? Because that is exclusionary indeed. I guess I’m not overly concerned that my husband is Catholic from a salvation stand point because I don’t see salvation as a Lutheran only thing.