big difference between Catholics and Protestants

[hays1122]

Not me. I was raised Protestant fundamentalist, and then I studied the Bible and Church history and realized I was living a man-made religion from the 1500’s, and the Christ’s 2,000-year-old Church was there all along. I’m in RCIA now, and will be confirmed in the Catholic Church this Easter Vigil.

There is so much division, disunity, and splintering in Protestantism, which is condemned in the letters of St. Paul. And everyone has their own little interpretations of Scripture, and everyone disagrees. When people have disagreements Christ told them to “take it to the Church”, but in Protestantism, which church? Everyone will have a different answer. Protestantism is an untenable mess of splintergroups of splintergroups of protesting splintergroups.

As a protestant convert to the Catholic church,how do you see Mary now?
I was raised Baptist and am learning all I can about the Catholic church in these few months now.
I feel like I could walk into a Catholic church this Sunday coming up IF I knew I wouldn’t feel like Mary was put in the same position as Christ.
I hear speakers on the radio talk about Mary as if she were Christ.
“Pray to Mary she will help you.”
“If it weren’t for Mary I would not be saved today.”
“Mother Mary saved my soul.”
“It’s because of Mother Mary I am where I am today.”
These are phrases I hear often while listening to EWTN.
Father Corapi makes these statements often. But there are others I listen to that feel the same way.
I can’t seem to let go of the idea that Christ is the one and only Lord God almighty whom we should worship and give credit for ALL we are now and ever will be.(I know Catholics don’t worship Mary,I’ve read many threads here on this.)
As you know Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I can not bring myself to say,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
How did you make that transition?

 

[Always_For_Him]

hays1122,
I know that you addressed someone else, but I would like to try. As I try to forumulate my answer, I am supplying you with these to give you a start.

Fr Vincent Serpa, O.P gives a wonderful answer:

Acknowledging God to be who He is constitutes worship. Only God, therefore can truly be worshipped. We do not acknowledge Mary to be God. We revere her and love her for the holy mother that she is. We give her no more honor than God Himself has given her. No other human being has ever been honored to the degree that Mary has by God. We simply treat her as Jesus treats her: as our holy Mother whom He gave to the whole human race when from the cross, He gave her to the apostle John.

We ask her to pray for us just as we ask each other for prayer. To ask someone to pray for me does not put that person in competition with Jesus. All prayer goes through Him anyway. But the more people are praying, the more love is happening. We are a part of each other in that we are all members of the Body of Christ. It’s all about love. (Jn 20:26-27)

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

And Again, Fr. Vincent Serpa:

First and foremost, Catholics only consider Mary because of who her Son is. If God had not chosen her to be the mother of His Son, Catholics would not single her out at all. But because God did single her out, we do also. This is the crux of the whole matter. It was God who sent the Archangel Gabriel to her with the words, “Hail, full of grace!” (Lk 1:28) Full of grace doesn’t mean having a substantial amount of grace. It means full! This is where we find Scriptural evidence that she was conceived, full of grace.

Such exalted words from God through His messenger expresses the sublime place she was to have in the salvation of the human race. SHE was to be the human channel through which the Savior would come. The Catholic Church did not invent this. This is solely the result of God’s determination.

In the process of our redemption God has had the co-operation of many, including Mary’s parents: Anna and Joachim, her husband Joseph, Elizabeth and Zacharia, John the Baptist and the prophets that preceded him, and the angel-messengers. These, in this sense, could be called co-redeemers so long as we understand what we mean by such a term. Of all of these, no one had a more intimate place in co-operating with the redemption Jesus has achieved for us than Mary. Her role is unique and we acknowledge this. But to suggest that any of the above co-redeemers are equal to the one, perfect Redeemer, Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church considers heresy.

The examples of art and the statements quoted are examples of hyperbole, exaggerations for effect and not meant to be taken literally. If one wants to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches regarding Mary, then one ought to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, beginning with #971.

Michelle Arnold - another Apologist on this forum explained:

Not all prayer is worship. Prayer simply means to make a request. Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her unique role in his mission, Catholics believe that Mary’s intercession is particularly powerful.

Catholics also believe in honoring God’s friends. Because Mary is the Mother of God, Catholics believe that she is particularly worthy of special honor that recognizes her Motherhood of God and her unique holiness. Sometimes such honor can take the form of a religious procession with an image of the Blessed Mother. If there is nothing wrong with honoring living human beings with parades in their honor, as we do for everyone from political leaders to sports heroes, then there is nothing wrong with honoring God’s saints in a similar manner.

Recommended reading:

Mary and the Saints
Any Friend of God’s Is a Friend of Mine by Patrick Madrid

 

[nbtb1348]

I would think that would be backing up your apparently spurious accusations with some facts.

Then it puts you in a tenuous position to assert with such confidence that this has happened, does it not?

Perhaps, before you continue advancing such groundless calumny, you will do some research?

Given your apparent gross lack of understanding of what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, this comment really has very little merit.

nb, Scripture does not teach. People teach. You acquired your understandings of what the scriptures mean by listening to people who teach this.

The reason scripture states that the moment a person is saved they step into a heavenly family where the Father adopts us is because Scripture was written by Catholics, and therefore, reflects the Catholic faith. This is what the Catholic Church teaches. That is why you are reading it in Scripture.

Yes. This is the faith we have received from the Apostles.

I agree that when people sin they experience a loss of grace.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

I accept that you did not experience it that way as a child and an altar boy. I, too, did not understand grace until I left the RCC. Although some of the fault for this is in poor catechesis, and it lack of parental adherance to baptismal vows, it primarily falls upon me to understand what the Church teaches, which I did not do.

There are not a lot of people in the world who would be impressed with your trite comments about Scripture not teaching. The Holy Spirit teaches, and ‘faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ’ John said believers have ‘the annointing’ so that they do not actually need teachers the way someone without the Spirit would need them. When Dawson Trotman started what became The Navigators, he taught seamen to memorize Scripture after they were saved, because he knew the power there and the fuel for the Spirit to work with. The rest is incredible history across the globe and on campuses, and it is one tiny yet huge part of the Non Catholic evangelization of the world. Your words about who wrote the Bible and the need to get the RCC’s view sound like tiny grains of sand falling into a roaring ocean of worldwide evangelical celebration and evangelization. They mean nothing to us, affect nothing of our progress and sound foreign to God’s word. I think you embrace what Evangelicals are doing, so why do you at the same time persist in attempting to marginalize such a huge and effective work of God?

 

[Matariel]

As a protestant convert to the Catholic church,how do you see Mary now?

Once you become aware of how the Catholic worldview, you find it absurd that you ever thought Catholics worshipped Mary. In fact, becoming Catholic has made my worldview emphasize Christ, because when we say Mary was concieved immaculately, and bore no more children, it’s really showing how holy Christ is, because her reason for being those things is because of Christ’s holiness. I mean, Mary’s body was conjoined to Christ intimately for nine months. They shared a blood supply. When I think of that, I cannot imagine Mary having any trace of sin at all. But it’s because of Christ’s holiness.

I was raised Baptist and am learning all I can about the Catholic Church in these few months now.
I feel like I could walk into a Catholic church this Sunday coming up IF I knew I wouldn’t feel like Mary was put in the same position as Christ.

If you knew just how Christocentric the Mass is, perhaps it would help. Have you read the early Christian writings of St. Ignatius, the personal disciple of St. John the Apostle? Or of St. Clement the personal disciple of Peter and John? It’s really eye-opening.

I hear speakers on the radio talk about Mary as if she were Christ.

I watch Catholic television on the time, and I have never heard something like that.

“Pray to Mary she will help you.”

Catholics, like the early (Catholic) Christians of the early centuries, do not believe saints are dead-- they are alive in Christ. “to be absent in the body is to be present with the lord.” In Revelation and other places in the Bible we see the saints know what’s happening down here on Earth. We invoke saints to intercede for us to God, much like asking a friend to pray for you here on Earth.

“If it weren’t for Mary I would not be saved today.”

They are not saying Mary saved them apart from Christ, they are attributing their salvation to Mary’s petitioning Christ for them. Mary only interceded for them, but Christ in His infinite mercy forgave the sinner and draws them closer to His Divine Heart of God.

“Mother Mary saved my soul.”

Who said this? This is not a normal way Catholics I have heard speak of Mary.

“It’s because of Mother Mary I am where I am today.”

Maybe that person has a very particular devotion to God by Mary’s intercession, and maybe Mary’s life was an outstanding example to them.

But these aren’t doctrinal issues. Just last year the Vatican excommunicated a group called “The Lady of Nations”, because they elevated Mary to Christ’s level. The Vatican called it heresy and called them to repentance.

These are phrases I hear often while listening to EWTN.
Father Corapi makes these statements often. But there are others I listen to that feel the same way.

Fr. Corapi is wonderful, and has a devotion to Mary. But you have to understand that Catholics use hyperbolë, mystical statements, and metaphor when speaking about religious things-- and most importantly, Catholics usually have a both/and mentality (Christ and Mary, although Christ is God and Mary is a creature-- an immaculate creature, but a creature nonetheless) whereas Protestants tend to have an either/or mentality (It’s Mary or Christ-- not both!)

I can’t seem to let go of the idea that Christ is the one and only Lord God almighty whom we should worship and give credit for ALL we are now and ever will be.(I know Catholics don’t worship Mary,I’ve read many threads here on this.)

And Catholics agree! Mary would have nothing without God. Mary did not do all those things on her own-- being conceived immaculately, having embryonic God within her, sharing her flesh and blood supply with God-- it was God’s plan from the beginning.

As you know Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I can not bring myself to say,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
How did you make that transition?

At first it’s hard to change a worldview, but once you get your gears shifted. But it wasn’t easy with my family being anti-Catholic and all…

 

[Church_Militant]

As a protestant convert to the Catholic church,how do you see Mary now?
I was raised Baptist and am learning all I can about the Catholic church in these few months now.
I feel like I could walk into a Catholic church this Sunday coming up IF I knew I wouldn’t feel like Mary was put in the same position as Christ.
I hear speakers on the radio talk about Mary as if she were Christ.
“Pray to Mary she will help you.”
“If it weren’t for Mary I would not be saved today.”
“Mother Mary saved my soul.”
“It’s because of Mother Mary I am where I am today.”
These are phrases I hear often while listening to EWTN.
Father Corapi makes these statements often. But there are others I listen to that feel the same way.
I can’t seem to let go of the idea that Christ is the one and only Lord God almighty whom we should worship and give credit for ALL we are now and ever will be.(I know Catholics don’t worship Mary,I’ve read many threads here on this.)
As you know Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I can not bring myself to say,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
How did you make that transition?

The Blessed Virgin is the all time great when it comes to intercessory prayer, (not to mention her OUTSTANDING example of Christian life and suffering. Luke 2:35.) a real Prayer Warrior Maiden!

Read My Testimony and see why I credit Our Lady with my return to our most holy faith. I believe she was praying for me, along with a great many members of my faithful departed family and that because of that God gave me the graces to repent and come home.

You won’t find any faithful Catholic who would ever even infer that they replace Our Blessed Lord with His dear mother and if you ask them to clarify instead of hearing through the polemics and propaganda of n-Cs/a-Cs who desperately wish we did as you suggest (or fear, whatever), then they’ll set you straight right quick.

You really need a better understanding of the Biblical basis for The Communion of Saints. That link will take you to a free MP3 Bible study on that topic. Feel free to PM me afterward if you have any questions.

 

[Matariel]

…view sound like tiny grains of sand falling into a roaring ocean of worldwide evangelical celebration and evangelization.

Buddy, Christ’s Catholic Church was evangelizing the world with the true Gospel 1,500 + years before the man-made evangelical sects emerged in the world. Truth is, the Catholic Church has converted billions of souls in the last 2,000 years of its existence.

 

[elvisman]

The Blessed Virgin is the all time great when it comes to intercessory prayer, (not to mention her OUTSTANDING example of Christian life and suffering. Luke 2:35.) a real Prayer Warrior Maiden!

Read My Testimony and see why I credit Our Lady with my return to our most holy faith. I believe she was praying for me, along with a great many members of my faithful departed family and that because of that God gave me the graces to repent and come home.

You won’t find any faithful Catholic who would ever even infer that they replace Our Blessed Lord with His dear mother and if you ask them to clarify instead of hearing through the polemics and propaganda of n-Cs/a-Cs who desperately wish we did as you suggest (or fear, whatever), then they’ll set you straight right quick.

You really need a better understanding of the Biblical basis for The Communion of Saints. That link will take you to a free MP3 Bible study on that topic. Feel free to PM me afterward if you have any questions.

[SIGN]AMEN, MY FRIEND!!![/SIGN]

 

[Church_Militant]

… Your words about who wrote the Bible and the need to get the RCC’s view sound like tiny grains of sand falling into a roaring ocean of worldwide evangelical celebration and evangelization.

That’s too bad. it would explain why I wrote this article for my blog.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

They mean nothing to us, affect nothing of our progress and sound foreign to God’s word. I think you embrace what Evangelicals are doing, so why do you at the same time persist in attempting to marginalize such a huge and effective work of God?

If you say so. I think the fact is that (as the article above points out) that God might have a different view of the work that you mention. I leave that to Him.

BTW, I did the Navigators Bible studies many long years ago. The memory of scripture has made me a better Catholic apologist and it was that love of scripture and truth that God used to bring me home to the Catholic faith.

The fact that you deride facts presented by Catholics that are based upon history and not the revisionist modern post reformation propaganda that I was subjected to for over 30 years means that if and when you realize the truth, you are likely to be kinda angry with all those well intentioned people with Bibles that taught you that stuff.

 

[nbtb1348]

Buddy, Christ’s Catholic Church was evangelizing the world with the true Gospel 1,500 + years before the man-made evangelical sects emerged in the world. Truth is, the Catholic Church has converted billions of souls in the last 2,000 years of its existence.

Poor Billy Graham and the millions who were saved, poor DL Moody and the missionaries sent from his school, poor Bill Bright, and the 200 ministries reaching around the world, poor Rick Warren and the 20,000 that get EXCITED! to attend that one church, poor Willow Creek, with another 20,000 plus, and the poor (at least their happy in Jesus) saints in the hundreds of thousands of evangelical churches around the world. They are just missing sooooo much! They really all just missed the boat completely according to you, didn’t they?

Christ has one Church. You better get used to it. All these people are part of it. “Catholic” means “universal” Just make sure you’re in the true Church. You have to be born again to be in it. If you are, you know it. Not because of the label, but because you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and the Holy Spirit is inside you. You can know tons of scripture and not know the Author.

Just a thought.

 

[Always_For_Him]

hays1122,

I want to ask you to read about typology in reference to Mary’s privileges revealed in the OT - Mary as the Second Eve, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Queen Mother. This is a little start.

We worship God alone. We do not worship Mary, we revere her, we honor her. We honor Mary because of her great privileges: she was conceived without sin, became the mother of God while remaining a virgin, and was assumed bodily into heaven. There she reigns as queen of heaven and earth, mother of the Church, God’s greatest creature. We honor her because Jesus honored her - perfectly obeying the fourth commandment - and we are called to imitate Jesus.
She is the Mother of God. We pray to God through Mary. Just as we pray for eachother here on earth, the Catholic Church has always taught that those who have passed before us are more alive now in heaven than they were here with us and can hear and intercede for us just as humans can on earth. Because Jesus is the one mediator between earth and heaven, we intercede for one another as members of Christ’s body. If people praying for us on earth do not destroy Christ’s role as the one mediator, neither do glorified saints praying for us in heaven. Mary is the greatest saint.
God honored Mary above all creatures by making her the mother of His Son. Mary’s special privileges were given to her by God, not men. She is the Blessed Virgin Mary as stated in Scripture. Scripture teaches that Mary is the Mother of God. The Early Church Fathers confirm Mary’s Divine Maternity.
All three pillars of the Reformation, Luther, Calvin and Zwingli insist that Mary is the Mother of God and Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and Ever Virgin. These beliefs were present at the formation of Protestantism. What has happened to them? Why has Mary become so unimportant?

Martin Luther’s dying prayers were to Mary. He believed in intercessory prayer.

The Communion of Saints and Intercessory Prayer are not really going to be too difficult for you to believe and understand once you learn it the way that the Church has embraced and taught it for 2,000 years.

Heb 12:1 tells us that we are surrounded by “a cloud of witnesses.”. Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3. The petitions offered as incense to God must before those who still need help, the holy ones on earth. They are offered by those who can help the most, the holy ones in heaven. LK 16:19-30, the parable of Lazarus…the rich man is able to pray to Abraham and intercede for his brothers…There is more, but I will stop there. You get the idea.

It really is amazing once you get it. The love just flows. I hope I have been helpful. There are so many people on this forum that can explain it much better than me.

There are also a lot of great threads on the subject of Mary. Just search the forum for them. Some may be closed, but they are still a fantastic read.

 

[Matariel]

Poor Billy Graham and the millions who were saved, poor DL Moody and the missionaries sent from his school, poor Bill Bright, and the 200 ministries reaching around the world, poor Rick Warren and the 20,000 that get EXCITED! to attend that one church, poor Willow Creek, with another 20,000 plus, and the poor (at least their happy in Jesus) saints in the hundreds of thousands of evangelical churches around the world. They are just missing sooooo much! They really all just missed the boat completely according to you, didn’t they?

Not exactly-- they are imperfectly united to the Catholic Church through their baptism. Rick Warren is a Neo-Evangelical though-- are you sure you want to put Billy Graham in the same boat? Rick Warren invited the Transcendental Meditation due to his compound, and also a yogi, as well as some others.

Christ has one Church. You better get used to it. All these people are part of it. “Catholic” means “universal” Just make sure you’re in the true Church.

Where do you get the notion that there is an amorphous “hidden invisible church”? You do know such a notion was invented in the 1500’s, by people who wanted to justify leaving the Church, don’t you? Before then, let me tell you, everyone knew who the real Church of Christ was-- the unfailing, 2,000-year-old Catholic Church.

You have to be born again to be in it.

Yep, born again in baptism.

And reconciling with the holy Catholic Church this Easter!

 

[Church_Militant]

Poor Billy Graham and the millions who were saved, poor DL Moody and the missionaries sent from his school, poor Bill Bright, and the 200 ministries reaching around the world, poor Rick Warren and the 20,000 that get EXCITED! to attend that one church, poor Willow Creek, with another 20,000 plus, and the poor (at least their happy in Jesus) saints in the hundreds of thousands of evangelical churches around the world. They are just missing sooooo much! They really all just missed the boat completely according to you, didn’t they?

Yeah. Why settle for portions of the truth when one can have the fullness of it.

In the context of the New Testament, one has to wonder why anyone would not want the original New Testament “full gospel” Christianity of the early church.

I “settled” for it for so many years and it was only as I began my journey home to Catholicism that so much of Christianity really began to make sense at last. One former Presbyterian pastor here in town converted to our most holy faith and in talking to him one morning at breakfast after Mass I asked him what had compelled him to convert and almost cried when the dear old soul looked me right in the eye and said, “I had to have the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Michael. I just had to.” God bless him, he has gone to his reward now but I think of him often.

Christ has one Church. You better get used to it. All these people are part of it. “Catholic” means “universal” Just make sure you’re in the true Church. You have to be born again to be in it. If you are, you know it. Not because of the label, **but because you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and the Holy Spirit is inside you. **

You can know tons of scripture and not know the Author.

Just a thought.

I hear more about being born again and living the Christian life than I ever did as a protestant in all those years, and without all the cute remarks about the other faith communities around us that were really such a huge waste of time. The Gospel speaks for itself and people respond.

Oh, we know in whom we have believed.

But let me ask you this. How do you know that this verse doesn’t apply to you?

Some n-Cs try to tell people that there is a greater “assurance of salvation” in their particular religion than among Catholics, but that is just theologically errant hype. We definately have a Biblically based Assurance of Salvation.

 

[guanophore]

As a protestant convert to the Catholic church,how do you see Mary now?
I was raised Baptist and am learning all I can about the Catholic church in these few months now.
I feel like I could walk into a Catholic church this Sunday coming up IF I knew I wouldn’t feel like Mary was put in the same position as Christ.

Well, keep studying! You will get over this.

I hear speakers on the radio talk about Mary as if she were Christ.

This is because we, the saints of God, are now the manifestation of Christ. He has made us partakers of His grace, and promised that greater things than He did will we do. The reason it is hard for some to accept this is because there is a deficient understanding of God’s plan for us in Christ. I lived as a Baptist for several years, and experienced the same thing.

"Pray to Mary she will help you."

This is the same sense in which the prayers of all the saints can help one another.

“One thing more — prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping through your prayers to be restored to you”. Philem 22

2 Cor 1:9-11
" He who rescued us from so deadly a peril will continue to rescue us; on him we have set our hope that he will rescue us again, 11 as you also join in helping us by your prayers, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many."

We can help one another by our prayers.

“If it weren’t for Mary I would not be saved today.”

I don’t see how this is disturbing. If it were not for some person or persons, none of us would hear the gospel, and come to know the Lord. Is it strange to be grateful to the Godly for their ministries of evangelization? Look how many credit their salvation to the preaching Billy Graham!

“Mother Mary saved my soul.”

All of us can participate in the ministry of reconciling souls to God. Paul writes about this:

Rom 11:13-14
Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry 14 in order to make my own people jealous, and thus save some of them.

1 Cor 9:22-23
22 To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings.

Do any of us imagine that Paul believes he can “save some” apart from Christ? Nor do we believe that Mary leads anyone to salvation apart from Christ.

“It’s because of Mother Mary I am where I am today.”

I can say this about each one of the excellent teachers and prayer warriors that have supported by spiritual growth. I could also say this about a parent, a mentor, a spouse…What is disturbing about this? Do you not beleive we are able to contribute to the good of others?

These are phrases I hear often while listening to EWTN.
Father Corapi makes these statements often. But there are others I listen to that feel the same way.
I can’t seem to let go of the idea that Christ is the one and only Lord God almighty whom we should worship and give credit for ALL we are now and ever will be.(I know Catholics don’t worship Mary,I’ve read many threads here on this.)

Yes, and Jesus is glorified in the lives of His saints. It is His expression of Himself through us, the Church that reveals Him to the world.

As you know Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I can not bring myself to say,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
How did you make that transition?

It helps to ask Jesus to develop in us the attitude He would like us to have for His mother.

If you ask others to pray for you, how is this prayer any different? Do you believe Mary is not Holy?

Not the Mother of God?

Not able to pray for us?

Will any mother abandon her child at the hour of his death? She stood faithfully at the foot of Jesus’ cross till He gave up His spirit. from that cross, He gave her as mother to us also. She will not abandon those who follow the commandments of her son.

 

[guanophore]

There are not a lot of people in the world who would be impressed with your trite comments about Scripture not teaching. The Holy Spirit teaches, and ‘faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ’ John said believers have ‘the annointing’ so that they do not actually need teachers the way someone without the Spirit would need them.

This is true, but it is true because the HS is a person, and only persons can teach. Teaching requires discernment, judgement and accountability. These are not qualities of the Holy Writings. Valuable (profitable) as they are, the require a teacher. this is why Jesus authorized the Apostles to teach, and they authorized their successors. Teaching is one of the gifts of the HS to the Church.

 When Dawson Trotman started what became The Navigators, he taught seamen to memorize Scripture after they were saved, because he knew the power there and the fuel for the Spirit to work with.  The rest is incredible history across the globe and on campuses, and it is one tiny yet huge part of the Non Catholic evangelization of the world.

Indeed yes! the work of the Navigators and the memorization of scripture transformed my life as a young student.

However, this evangelization is effective because of the Catholic Church. The Church gave the world the Bible, and it was Catholics who passed down through the apostolic succession that ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.

Your words about who wrote the Bible and the need to get the RCC's view sound like tiny grains of sand falling into a roaring ocean of worldwide evangelical celebration and evangelization.

I made no such words, so I cannot imagine what you are talking about here.

I will say, however, that the great evangelistic spirit of our separated brethren is a great example for some lethargic Catholics.

They mean nothing to us, affect nothing of our progress and sound foreign to God’s word.

I think this is very true. Modern day Protestants are, by and large, separated from the portion of God’s word that is not found in the Scripture. They are cut off from the rest of the Divine Deposit of Faith.

I think you embrace what Evangelicals are doing, so why do you at the same time persist in attempting to marginalize such a huge and effective work of God?

I have said nothing to marginalize the huge and effective work of God.

I have pointed out to you that the bible does not “teach” itself, and those who take it up with such a myth in their minds find themselves increasingly separated from the Apostolic teachings that produced the New Testament.

 

[guanophore]

Poor Billy Graham and the millions who were saved, poor DL Moody and the missionaries sent from his school, poor Bill Bright, and the 200 ministries reaching around the world, poor Rick Warren and the 20,000 that get EXCITED! to attend that one church, poor Willow Creek, with another 20,000 plus, and the poor (at least their happy in Jesus) saints in the hundreds of thousands of evangelical churches around the world. They are just missing sooooo much!

Your sarcasm notwithstanding, yes they are. However, as the woman said, even crumbs from the table are better than nothing!

 They really all just missed the boat completely according to you, didn't they?

Not a bit. They are clinging with all faith to the One Boat that Jesus left in the world to save sinners, the Church.

Christ has one Church. You better get used to it. All these people are part of it. “Catholic” means “universal” Just make sure you’re in the true Church. You have to be born again to be in it. If you are, you know it. Not because of the label, but because you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and the Holy Spirit is inside you. You can know tons of scripture and not know the Author.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[rinnie]

There are not a lot of people in the world who would be impressed with your trite comments about Scripture not teaching. The Holy Spirit teaches, and ‘faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ’ John said believers have ‘the annointing’ so that they do not actually need teachers the way someone without the Spirit would need them. When Dawson Trotman started what became The Navigators, he taught seamen to memorize Scripture after they were saved, because he knew the power there and the fuel for the Spirit to work with. The rest is incredible history across the globe and on campuses, and it is one tiny yet huge part of the Non Catholic evangelization of the world. Your words about who wrote the Bible and the need to get the RCC’s view sound like tiny grains of sand falling into a roaring ocean of worldwide evangelical celebration and evangelization. They mean nothing to us, affect nothing of our progress and sound foreign to God’s word. I think you embrace what Evangelicals are doing, so why do you at the same time persist in attempting to marginalize such a huge and effective work of God?

Here is the thing yes scriptures do teach. But you must learn what they are saying and what Jesus wanted to get across to us by those scriptures first. If you teach one thing I teach another ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;down the line what are we to believe.

So we must have authority to explain what they mean, then of course you can learn from them. But scripture itself cannot teach. The Church is here to teach what the point of those scriptures mean. Example thy shall not kill, To kill is a mortal sin. But there are ways that you can kill and it not be a mortal sin. Self defense. See what I mean. You must understand the gospel before you can teach it. And that teaching power comes from one source the Holy Spirit. We do not have that gift. Sure we can help eachother and teach the truth once it is revealed to us. BUt it must come from the HS which works through the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

As you know Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I can not bring myself to say,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
How did you make that transition?

First, you have to realize what worship is. It is the sacrifice of the bread and wine and money. Watch next time you are at Mass: where do they put the bread, the wine, and the baskets of money, at the time that we are making the offering of sacrifice?

Notice that it does not go to the statue of Mary; rather, it goes to the Altar of Christ. And when the priest makes the offering, who is he praying to? To Jesus, right? Not to Mary, or to anyone else.

Mary is one of us. She can pray for us. But we don’t give her offerings, and the priest doesn’t make any sacrifice of any kind to her on our behalf.

But if you are used to never giving sacrifices to God - if your whole interaction with God has been on the “one of us” level - giving praise, and talking to Him, but that’s it, then it’s easy to see how doing the same for Mary would seem uncomfortable.

 

[nbtb1348]

Your sarcasm notwithstanding, yes they are. However, as the woman said, even crumbs from the table are better than nothing!

Not a bit. They are clinging with all faith to the One Boat that Jesus left in the world to save sinners, the Church.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

So many of our churches are made up of former Catholics who discovered the difference.

 

[nbtb1348]

Here is the thing yes scriptures do teach. But you must learn what they are saying and what Jesus wanted to get across to us by those scriptures first. If you teach one thing I teach another ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;down the line what are we to believe.

So we must have authority to explain what they mean, then of course you can learn from them. But scripture itself cannot teach. The Church is here to teach what the point of those scriptures mean. Example thy shall not kill, To kill is a mortal sin. But there are ways that you can kill and it not be a mortal sin. Self defense. See what I mean. You must understand the gospel before you can teach it. And that teaching power comes from one source the Holy Spirit. We do not have that gift. Sure we can help eachother and teach the truth once it is revealed to us. BUt it must come from the HS which works through the Church.

Everything you just said and a thousand times more is taught with power and accuracy in many many non Catholic churches around the world.

You ere, however, where we don’t: Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that murder is a mortal sin. And do you know which sin seemed to anger Jesus the most while He was here?

 

[nbtb1348]

That’s too bad. it would explain why I wrote this article for my blog.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

If you say so. I think the fact is that (as the article above points out) that God might have a different view of the work that you mention. I leave that to Him.

BTW, I did the Navigators Bible studies many long years ago. The memory of scripture has made me a better Catholic apologist and it was that love of scripture and truth that God used to bring me home to the Catholic faith.

The fact that you deride facts presented by Catholics that are based upon history and not the revisionist modern post reformation propaganda that I was subjected to for over 30 years means that if and when you realize the truth, you are likely to be kinda angry with all those well intentioned people with Bibles that taught you that stuff.

You know, as Will Rogers said a long time ago, Saying it doesn’t necessarily make it so. You guys say a lot that just isn’t true. I celebrate the fact that the Roman church holds to the deity of Christ, the virgin birth and the divine inspiration of scripture. I do not celebrate the things I have pointed out.

First…it shows the anemia of your argument that when you point to Peter’s sermon and response in Acts, you try to make your case for a works-involved salvation (your words in your article) by pointing to the command to be baptized! For one thing, baptism was the way people made their ‘profession of faith’ You didn’t ‘come forward’ at the end of the sermon; you got baptised. It was woven into the decision to repent and believe. For another thing, that is the only act other than repentance and faith, that you can cite in Scripture where a writer or speaker says you have to do anything to be saved, beyond those things. You just don’t get the fact that salvation by grace through faith is what makes you an ETERNAL child of God. The works that follow simply PROVE you are!

I’m glad you quote Galatians again, where Paul curses anyone who preaches another gospel. Notice what he says about that matter in Galatians:

***“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified ***by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

Don’t you think if there was more to it, Paul would have said so right here? **He didn’t, and he doesn’t anywhere! ** You have to hide from his teaching on salvation by grace through faith in order to protect your pernicious and cursed teaching about works being part of what saves us. You are in a very dangerous and unenviable place.