big difference between Catholics and Protestants

[hays1122]

First, you have to realize what worship is. It is the sacrifice of the bread and wine and money. Watch next time you are at Mass: where do they put the bread, the wine, and the baskets of money, at the time that we are making the offering of sacrifice?

Notice that it does not go to the statue of Mary; rather, it goes to the Altar of Christ. And when the priest makes the offering, who is he praying to? To Jesus, right? Not to Mary, or to anyone else.

Mary is one of us. She can pray for us. But we don’t give her offerings, and the priest doesn’t make any sacrifice of any kind to her on our behalf.

But if you are used to never giving sacrifices to God - if your whole interaction with God has been on the “one of us” level - giving praise, and talking to Him, but that’s it, then it’s easy to see how doing the same for Mary would seem uncomfortable.

My interaction with God has been one of praise and giving glory to my creator and savior. I am not uncomfortable giving sacrifices to God at all.
I am uncomfortable giving praises,glory,honor and sacrifices to any other being besides my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is Lord and God almighty.
The bible does say that the Lord delights in our sacrifice of praise. So if praise is a sacrifice,then Catholics offer their sacrifice of praise to Mary as pointed out in my earlier post.
I am very used to offering God my sacrifice of praise,honor and Glory. Which belong to him and him alone.
Hebrews 13:15
“By him therefore let us offer the SACRIFICE OF PRAISE to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.”
I also make the sacrifice of giving to the Lord’s work in tithing and giving to charity.
You actually didn’t really answer my question. It seems like you avoided it by accusing me of not knowing how to worship the Lord properly and that’s why I couldn’t understand doing that to Mary.
How did you If you were a protestant make the transition from not thinking of Mary as someone who can intercede for us and then being able to say a prayer such as ,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
That was my question. Why not answer it?
Instead of attacking me by saying I never understood worshiping God in the first place.

 

[nbtb1348]

As a protestant convert to the Catholic church,how do you see Mary now?
I was raised Baptist and am learning all I can about the Catholic church in these few months now.
I feel like I could walk into a Catholic church this Sunday coming up IF I knew I wouldn’t feel like Mary was put in the same position as Christ.
I hear speakers on the radio talk about Mary as if she were Christ.
“Pray to Mary she will help you.”
“If it weren’t for Mary I would not be saved today.”
“Mother Mary saved my soul.”
“It’s because of Mother Mary I am where I am today.”
These are phrases I hear often while listening to EWTN.
Father Corapi makes these statements often. But there are others I listen to that feel the same way.
I can’t seem to let go of the idea that Christ is the one and only Lord God almighty whom we should worship and give credit for ALL we are now and ever will be.(I know Catholics don’t worship Mary,I’ve read many threads here on this.)
As you know Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I can not bring myself to say,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
How did you make that transition?

And you see, if those quotes are true, it lays bare the ugly truth about the obssession with Mary in the Roman church. I don’t care whether they want to admit to worship or not. The fact is that to any honest observer who studies the Scriptures, those statements prove Mary have been placed in a postition of more prominence than Jesus. They can say all they want about Him being the supreme one, they spend blashpemous amounts of time and energy glorifying Mary when they should be glorifying Jesus Christ. The amazing thing is that they don’t see it, while the Christian world looks on from a Scrpiptural view and says, “You must be kidding!!” But of course, they are not.

Check out this link to Google on “Mother and Child Worship” It is older than the idolatrous and pagan Babylonian worship system.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=mother+and+child+worship&aq=0&oq=mother+and+child+wor

 

[elvisman]

You know, as Will Rogers said a long time ago, Saying it doesn’t necessarily make it so. You guys say a lot that just isn’t true. I celebrate the fact that the Roman church holds to the deity of Christ, the virgin birth and the divine inspiration of scripture. I do not celebrate the things I have pointed out.

First…it shows the anemia of your argument that when you point to Peter’s sermon and response in Acts, you try to make your case for a works-involved salvation (your words in your article) by pointing to the command to be baptized! For one thing, baptism was the way people made their ‘profession of faith’ You didn’t ‘come forward’ at the end of the sermon; you got baptised. It was woven into the decision to repent and believe. For another thing, that is the only act other than repentance and faith, that you can cite in Scripture where a writer or speaker says you have to do anything to be saved, beyond those things. You just don’t get the fact that salvation by grace through faith is what makes you an ETERNAL child of God. The works that follow simply PROVE you are!

I’m glad you quote Galatians again, where Paul curses anyone who preaches another gospel. Notice what he says about that matter in Galatians:

***“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified ***by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

Don’t you think if there was more to it, Paul would have said so right here? **He didn’t, and he doesn’t anywhere! **You have to hide from his teaching on salvation by grace through faith in order to protect your pernicious and cursed teaching about works being part of what saves us. You are in a very dangerous and unenviable place.

**Ummmm, *YOOHOO!! ***

---

**nbtb1348?? **

Are you ever going to answer one of my responses??
You’ve been dodging me on many threads. I believe it’s because you can’t answer them.

Please answer my response to you in this thread - Post #191.
Thank you!!

 

[nbtb1348]

*2 Peter 2:20-21 - "*For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

These verses are clearly about those who were in God’s grace and LOST it. Don’t twist the scriptures to your own destruction.

Sorry, I didn’t see your post. I don’t navigate this site as well as some. I’m not hiding! I enjoy answering honest questions.

First of all, I want to say this: The only way I see the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints being attacked is by citing a few verses that at first glance seem to contradict the VOLUME of verses that establish the doctrine. I’m sure you have had those verses listed before your eyes more than once.

It is very GOOD to bring verses to bear in an argument (discussion ) just as you are doing, but not if you cannot exegete the other verses and harmonize ALL. I don’t see that happening. But I will harmonize here. I doubt you will like the explanation, because I think we are dealing with pride of position. But here goes…

The Romans passage is talking about the fact that we are in what some call “the period of the Gentiles”. God has temporarily blinded the Jews as a whole )though Jews are still being saved today) and He, starting perhaps when Paul told the Jews in Acts he was turning to the Gentiles, has opened the flood gates to the Gentiles. He is simply saying here that He could easily reverse that at any time. He’s talking people groups.

The Hebrews passage is written to …Hebrews! There were many who were saved, and there were many who were tasting and had not yet fully come over to embrace the gospel. Some were falling back to the Law and the old ways as their hope for salvation. The writer of Hebrews is addressing that phenomenon.

The Peter passage is talking about just what we have discussed on these forums–people who say they are believers, have knowledge, but are not really saved, and they turn away.

NOWHERE IN EITHER OF THESE PASSAGES DOES IT SAY THESE PEOPLE WERE SAVED, BORN AGAIN, OR CHRIST’S.
*
Lastly, John’s words shed much light on this phenomenon:
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”–I John 2:19*

Here are just some of the many verses that teach the perseverence of the saints:
John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 10:27-28 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Ephesians 1:13-14 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
1 Peter 1:5 - …who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time
Romans 8:1 - There is therefor now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:32. “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?”
Romans 8:38-39 - For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 1:6 - …being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 1:12 - For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
2 Timothy 4:18 - Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Jude 24-25 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Savior, Who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.

 

[rinnie]

Everything you just said and a thousand times more is taught with power and accuracy in many many non Catholic churches around the world.

You ere, however, where we don’t: Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that murder is a mortal sin. And do you know which sin seemed to anger Jesus the most while He was here?

It is not taught in Scripture that Murder is not a sin. What about one of the ten Commandments. Thou shall not Kill.

 

[Salonika]

First, you have to realize what worship is. It is the sacrifice of the bread and wine and money. Watch next time you are at Mass: where do they put the bread, the wine, and the baskets of money, at the time that we are making the offering of sacrifice?

Notice that it does not go to the statue of Mary; rather, it goes to the Altar of Christ. And when the priest makes the offering, who is he praying to? To Jesus, right? Not to Mary, or to anyone else.

Mary is one of us. She can pray for us. But we don’t give her offerings, and the priest doesn’t make any sacrifice of any kind to her on our behalf.

A good description. Thank you.

 

[nbtb1348]

It is not taught in Scripture that Murder is not a sin. What about one of the ten Commandments. Thou shall not Kill.

But my question is where do you find scripture delineating the 10 commandments as the ones that, if you break them, you commit a ‘mortal’ sin?

1. The whole concept of a mortal sin is, I think, suspect. I don’t find it in Scripture
2. Jesus seemed to get far more upset with the hypocricies of the pharisees than He did with the adulterers, thieves…
3. He carried EVERY sin I would ever commit with him to the cross and my sins were punished there. The 'handwriting of ordinances which were against [me]" was blotted out! -Colossians Gone! I’m free. No possible condemnation even exists in the universe for me EVER AGAIN!

“Therefore, there is now *no *condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”–Rom 8:1

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No possible condemnation even exists in the universe for me EVER AGAIN!

The Scriptures disagree with you:

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

or if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 20:20-21

Maybe you you should take your problems up with the writers of the NT?

“Therefore, there is now *no *condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”–Rom 8:1

You underlined the wrong part of the verse:

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”–Rom 8:1

…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling… Phil 2:12

“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” Rom. 11:22

God bless

 

[nbtb1348]

The Scriptures disagree with you:

Maybe you you should take your problems up with the writers of the NT?

You underlined the wrong part of the verse:

God bless

See my posting to Elvis above. What you don’t get is that when God saves a person in a moment of time, He planned it from all eternity past. At least 30 things happen to that person the moment he or she is saved, including the death of the old man, the fusing of his spirit with His Spirit, and this is no shaky little last minute, tentative thing God does. It is HUGE and it is forever. Maybe you need to ask yourself if at the point your trace your new birth back to, something HUGE happened to you? Or did you just get wet and join a church? I’m dead serious. Could be the best thing you ever do–asking that question.

 

[mmcloug]

“Priests have the power to…” is lacking in content. Please elaborate that Catholic Priests have the power through the *Holy Spirit *to…".

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

See my posting to Elvis above. What you don’t get is that when God saves a person in a moment of time, He planned it from all eternity past. At least 30 things happen to that person the moment he or she is saved, including the death of the old man, the fusing of his spirit with His Spirit, and this is no shaky little last minute, tentative thing God does. It is HUGE and it is forever. Maybe you need to ask yourself if at the point your trace your new birth back to, something HUGE happened to you? Or did you just get wet and join a church? I’m dead serious. Could be the best thing you ever do–asking that question.

“Unless I am convicted by Scripture or by right reason (for I trust neither in [you] nor your [interpretation], for they have often erred and contradicted themselves)-- unless I am thus convinced, I am bound by the texts of the Bible, my conscience is captive to the Word of God, I neither can nor will recant anything, since it is neither right nor safe to act against conscience. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen”



Sorry nbtb I will take the Word of God over your word any day of the week, so help me God.

No possible condemnation even exists in the universe for me EVER AGAIN!

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

God bless

 

[nbtb1348]

“Unless I am convicted by Scripture or by right reason (for I trust neither in [you] nor your [interpretation], for they have often erred and contradicted themselves)-- unless I am thus convinced, I am bound by the texts of the Bible, my conscience is captive to the Word of God, I neither can nor will recant anything, since it is neither right nor safe to act against conscience. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen”



Sorry nbtb I will take the Word of God over your word any day of the week, so help me God.

God bless

I love Luther’s quote. It is one of the greatest things ever spoken, short of Scripture, and in fact that could just be my answer to every question. How have I misrepresented the Scriptures? Exegete one of the verses I explained.

 

[jmcrae]

My interaction with God has been one of praise and giving glory to my creator and savior. I am not uncomfortable giving sacrifices to God at all.

Giving one’s offering to the priest so that he can sacrifice it on the Altar is what constitutes biblical worship. As far as I know, most Protestants have no priesthood, and no altars; thus, nothing that the Bible would recognize as “worship.”

I am uncomfortable giving praises,glory,honor and sacrifices to any other being besides my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is Lord and God almighty.

Well, I hope that you give praise to your spouse and children, for the sake of their mental and emotional health.

The bible does say that the Lord delights in our sacrifice of praise.

Yes, He does - but He also praises the righteous. Is He giving them the worship that is due only unto Himself? It doesn’t make any sense to say that, does it? So, the answer has to be that, no, praise is not the worship that is due only to God. Praise is obviously essential as well, but it is not the main event.

You actually didn’t really answer my question. It seems like you avoided it by accusing me of not knowing how to worship the Lord properly and that’s why I couldn’t understand doing that to Mary.
How did you If you were a protestant make the transition from not thinking of Mary as someone who can intercede for us and then being able to say a prayer such as ,“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
That was my question. Why not answer it?
Instead of attacking me by saying I never understood worshiping God in the first place.

Because if you think that asking Mary (or anyone) to pray for you, or if you think giving voice to your appreciation for her (or anyone’s) good qualities is the same thing as the oblation of bread and wine, or the money that is given to the collection, that is placed upon the Altar, then you have a confused idea of what is meant by the term “worship” (in the sense of adoration of God).

 

[rinnie]

But my question is where do you find scripture delineating the 10 commandments as the ones that, if you break them, you commit a ‘mortal’ sin?

1. The whole concept of a mortal sin is, I think, suspect. I don’t find it in Scripture
2. Jesus seemed to get far more upset with the hypocricies of the pharisees than He did with the adulterers, thieves…
3. He carried EVERY sin I would ever commit with him to the cross and my sins were punished there. The 'handwriting of ordinances which were against [me]" was blotted out! -Colossians Gone! I’m free. No possible condemnation even exists in the universe for me EVER AGAIN!

“Therefore, there is now *no *condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”–Rom 8:1

You just gave me Proof of what I am saying. You will not find everything in the Bible. That is why you need more than the bible. That is why you do not undertand all of the teachings, you dont got em. What I and everyone here is trying to tell you is WE ALL NEED A TEACHER, Just like school. If the teacher hands you a book, thats not enough. We need someone who understands the book to teach the book. And without SS you could not understand the BIBLE. Its kind of like the OT and the NT. Without the NT the Bible is not complete for a Christian. That is why Jesus went out and on purpose picked Men to teach. Certain MEN. That is why he left them the HOLY SPIRIT. Read back in the bible and you will see, they like us did not understand everything Jesus did or said either.

Remember what he said? He said you do not understand now, but I will send to you the Advocate (the HOLY SPIRIT) Thats how they understand. ITs not on their own either.

Everything that the Bishop, Pope, Priests, etc does not come from reading the bible. They were chosen to TEACH. God comes to them and gives them the words, the understanding to share with us.

 

[elvisman]

Sorry, I didn’t see your post. I don’t navigate this site as well as some. I’m not hiding! I enjoy answering honest questions.

First of all, I want to say this: The only way I see the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints being attacked is by citing a few verses that at first glance seem to contradict the VOLUME of verses that establish the doctrine. I’m sure you have had those verses listed before your eyes more than once.

It is very GOOD to bring verses to bear in an argument (discussion ) just as you are doing, but not if you cannot exegete the other verses and harmonize ALL. I don’t see that happening. But I will harmonize here. I doubt you will like the explanation, because I think we are dealing with pride of position. But here goes…

The Romans passage is talking about the fact that we are in what some call “the period of the Gentiles”. God has temporarily blinded the Jews as a whole )though Jews are still being saved today) and He, starting perhaps when Paul told the Jews in Acts he was turning to the Gentiles, has opened the flood gates to the Gentiles. He is simply saying here that He could easily reverse that at any time. He’s talking people groups.

The Hebrews passage is written to …Hebrews! There were many who were saved, and there were many who were tasting and had not yet fully come over to embrace the gospel. Some were falling back to the Law and the old ways as their hope for salvation. The writer of Hebrews is addressing that phenomenon.

The Peter passage is talking about just what we have discussed on these forums–people who say they are believers, have knowledge, but are not really saved, and they turn away.

NOWHERE IN EITHER OF THESE PASSAGES DOES IT SAY THESE PEOPLE WERE SAVED, BORN AGAIN, OR CHRIST’S.

Lastly, John’s words shed much light on this phenomenon:
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”–I John 2:19

Here are just some of the many verses that teach the perseverence of the saints:
John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 10:27-28 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Ephesians 1:13-14 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
1 Peter 1:5 - …who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time
Romans 8:1 - There is therefor now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:32. “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?”
Romans 8:38-39 - For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 1:6 - …being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 1:12 - For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
2 Timothy 4:18 - Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Jude 24-25 - Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Savior, Who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.

**WRONG. **
Every one of these verses is about those who have KNOWN the truth and have fallen away. Again with the rationalizations . . .

---

Every verse I provided you with is perfectly harmonious with these verses.
These verses speak of the HOPE of salvation IF we truly believe. To TRULY believe, we must submit ourselves to OBEDIENCE. (Romans 1:5 and 16:26) I means to believe and accept EVERYTHING the Lord has revealed.
If you have faith and have no obedience of faith, how does that faith Justify? (James 2)

---

You can’t have it both ways**

 

[hays1122]

Giving one’s offering to the priest so that he can sacrifice it on the Altar is what constitutes biblical worship. As far as I know, most Protestants have no priesthood, and no altars; thus, nothing that the Bible would recognize as “worship.”

Well, I hope that you give praise to your spouse and children, for the sake of their mental and emotional health.

Yes, He does - but He also praises the righteous. Is He giving them the worship that is due only unto Himself? It doesn’t make any sense to say that, does it? So, the answer has to be that, no, praise is not the worship that is due only to God. Praise is obviously essential as well, but it is not the main event.

Because if you think that asking Mary (or anyone) to pray for you, or if you think giving voice to your appreciation for her (or anyone’s) good qualities is the same thing as the oblation of bread and wine, or the money that is given to the collection, that is placed upon the Altar, then you have a confused idea of what is meant by the term “worship” (in the sense of adoration of God).

I see from your response that you are obiously full of yourself as a now about to be Catholic. You obviously hate the protestant faith which you were a part of and have no wish to converse in a respectful manner.
May God bless you on your journey.

 

[guanophore]

So many of our churches are made up of former Catholics who discovered the difference.

Oh, indeed! I used to be one of them. Poorly catechized, living in mortal sin, refusing to accept the teaching of the Apostles.

Everything you just said and a thousand times more is taught with power and accuracy in many many non Catholic churches around the world.

You ere, however, where we don’t: Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that murder is a mortal sin. And do you know which sin seemed to anger Jesus the most while He was here?

The Scriptures dont’ “teach”, that is why, nbtb. Violating all of the 10 commandments places a person in mortal sin.

You guys say a lot that just isn't true.

What you have done is replaced the authority that Jesus appointed as the standard of “true” with your own perceptions.

First…it shows the anemia of your argument that when you point to Peter’s sermon and response in Acts,

I think what is anemic is a gospel that has been separated from the Sacred Traditions of the Apostles who taught it!

you try to make your case for a works-involved salvation by pointing to the command to be baptized!

No, nbtb, that is your anti catholic rhetoric talking. Peter clearly commanded for the converts to be baptized. Baptism is the manner in which God has ordained that the grace should flow into us. It is not something we do, but something He does. We participate.

For one thing, baptism was the way people made their 'profession of faith'  You didn't 'come forward' at the end of the sermon; you got baptised.

It is true that the profession of faith has never been separated from valid baptism. Jesus said it is necessary to be born from above by water an Spirit in order to have eternal life. In fact, they did come forward after the sermon to be baptized!

 It was woven into the decision to repent and believe.

Yes, and this is what Church Militant means when he says that our response is “involved”. Our response to God’s grace is “woven in”.

For another thing, that is the only act other than repentance and faith, that you can cite in Scripture where a writer or speaker says you have to do anything to be saved, beyond those things.

This is a false statement. What do we see the converts doing at Pentecost? They devoted themselves to the Apostolic Teaching, the breaking of the bread, and the prayers. Becoming a disciple has not been separated from the gospel until the modern America fundamentalist movement in the 1900;s.

  ***You just don't get the fact that salvation by grace through faith is what makes you an ETERNAL child of God.  The works that follow simply PROVE you are!***

We don’t separate our response to grace from the grace that saves us by faith. We continue reading into verse 10, and we realize that we are saved “for” those works.

I'm glad you quote Galatians again, where Paul curses anyone who preaches another gospel.  Notice what he says about that matter  in Galatians:

***“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified ***by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

Don’t you think if there was more to it, Paul would have said so right here? **He didn’t, and he doesn’t anywhere! **

On the contrary, Paul has plenty to say on the relationship of works to salvation. But, right here, he is talking about the Mosaic law, and that Gentile Christians are not bound to it. Works of faith that are the obedience to Christ are another matter entirely.

You have to hide from his teaching on salvation by grace through faith in order to protect your pernicious and cursed teaching about works being part of what saves us. You are in a very dangerous and unenviable place.

This is a very hostile anti-catholic statement, nbtb. Paul was Catholic, and everything he wrote is for and about Catholics. Catholics have no need to “hide” from anything he writes.

I again find myself wondering why you are here. Did you come here to insult the Catholic faith?

 

[nbtb1348]

Giving one’s offering to the priest so that he can sacrifice it on the Altar is what constitutes biblical worship. As far as I know, most Protestants have no priesthood, and no altars; thus, nothing that the Bible would recognize as “worship.”

Well, I hope that you give praise to your spouse and children, for the sake of their mental and emotional health.

Yes, He does - but He also praises the righteous. Is He giving them the worship that is due only unto Himself? It doesn’t make any sense to say that, does it? So, the answer has to be that, no, praise is not the worship that is due only to God. Praise is obviously essential as well, but it is not the main event.

Because if you think that asking Mary (or anyone) to pray for you, or if you think giving voice to your appreciation for her (or anyone’s) good qualities is the same thing as the oblation of bread and wine, or the money that is given to the collection, that is placed upon the Altar, then you have a confused idea of what is meant by the term “worship” (in the sense of adoration of God).

You were in the wrong churches before. Tell me what city you live in and I will send you to a worship service that, without being a ‘pentecostal’ style, will blow you away. I left a church that had a lot of ritual, and it felt very dry to me, in retrospect, compared to the Holy Spirit-led worship I am involved in now.

And I think I would be careful before bragging about the priesthood today in the RCC

 

[nbtb1348]

Oh, indeed! I used to be one of them. Poorly catechized, living in mortal sin, refusing to accept the teaching of the Apostles.

The Scriptures dont’ “teach”, that is why, nbtb. Violating all of the 10 commandments places a person in mortal sin.

What you have done is replaced the authority that Jesus appointed as the standard of “true” with your own perceptions.

I think what is anemic is a gospel that has been separated from the Sacred Traditions of the Apostles who taught it!

No, nbtb, that is your anti catholic rhetoric talking. Peter clearly commanded for the converts to be baptized. Baptism is the manner in which God has ordained that the grace should flow into us. It is not something we do, but something He does. We participate.

It is true that the profession of faith has never been separated from valid baptism. Jesus said it is necessary to be born from above by water an Spirit in order to have eternal life. In fact, they did come forward after the sermon to be baptized!

Yes, and this is what Church Militant means when he says that our response is “involved”. Our response to God’s grace is “woven in”.

This is a false statement. What do we see the converts doing at Pentecost? They devoted themselves to the Apostolic Teaching, the breaking of the bread, and the prayers. Becoming a disciple has not been separated from the gospel until the modern America fundamentalist movement in the 1900;s.

We don’t separate our response to grace from the grace that saves us by faith. We continue reading into verse 10, and we realize that we are saved “for” those works.

On the contrary, Paul has plenty to say on the relationship of works to salvation. But, right here, he is talking about the Mosaic law, and that Gentile Christians are not bound to it. Works of faith that are the obedience to Christ are another matter entirely.

This is a very hostile anti-catholic statement, nbtb. Paul was Catholic, and everything he wrote is for and about Catholics. Catholics have no need to “hide” from anything he writes.

I again find myself wondering why you are here. Did you come here to insult the Catholic faith?

Paul was not Catholic in your sense at all. He opposed people who did what the RCC has a tendency to do–add to the simple gospel that frees people. You want to bind them to traditions that the Canon knows nothing about. You can say that Scriptures don’t teach all you want.

I am way underimpressed with your vain repetitions of the party line that is off-base. I will close this portion of the conversation with this verse where Paul tells Timothy the exact opposite of what you said above. Maybe the reason that for you, the Scriptures don’t teach is that you don’t have the Teacher living inside you. Just a thought to ponder. You seem so underwhelmed with the majesty of the simple gospel, of grace, and of the power of the Scriptures.

Here’s the verse from II Timothy 315. Don’t dare re-read vs 16

"…and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

 

[jmcrae]

I see from your response that you are obiously full of yourself as a now about to be Catholic. You obviously hate the protestant faith which you were a part of and have no wish to converse in a respectful manner.
May God bless you on your journey.

Do you have a response to the actual content of my message, or is this personal attack a signal of surrender?