big difference between Catholics and Protestants

[nbtb1348]

This is a false statement. What do we see the converts doing at Pentecost? They devoted themselves to the Apostolic Teaching, the breaking of the bread, and the prayers. Becoming a disciple has not been separated from the gospel until the modern America fundamentalist movement in the 1900;s.

Guano, how can you make such a lame statement? Of course they devoted themselves to those things!! And so do we. This discussion has nothing to do with what a follower of Christ does after he is saved! I was talking about what Scripture says is necessary to RECEIVE eternal life and be adopted into the family of God! How many times do we have to tell you that the works follow as evidence that there was real new birth. Don’t keep hiding behind that. Faith saves, and works follow. But faith saves. You are doing exactly what Paul cursed. So if you want to continue, then stand in line and accept his pronouncement upon your head.

***“not by works of righteousness ***which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”–Titus 3:5

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone (like Guanophore) should boast.”–Eph 2:8,9

 

[guanophore]

And you see, if those quotes are true, it lays bare the ugly truth about the obssession with Mary in the Roman church.

The veneration of Mary is not a “Roman” phenomenon, nbtb. It is shared by all the Churches planted by the Apostles.

I don’t care whether they want to admit to worship or not.

One cannot worship with out the will, nbtb. Basically what you are saying is that Catholics mean their prayers differently than they think they mean them because you say so.

The fact is that to any honest observer who studies the Scriptures, those statements prove Mary have been placed in a postition of more prominence than Jesus.

Well, we read them differetntly

If you think that these prayers are not appropriate, then I suggest you not use them.

They can say all they want about Him being the supreme one, they spend blashpemous amounts of time and energy glorifying Mary when they should be glorifying Jesus Christ.

Basically what you have done is judge the hearts of others. You have assumed that you can look into the soul of Catholics, and determne that they have committed blasphemy.

The amazing thing is that they don’t see it, while the Christian world looks on from a Scrpiptural view and says, “You must be kidding!!” But of course, they are not.

Check out this link to Google on “Mother and Child Worship” It is older than the idolatrous and pagan Babylonian worship system.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=mother+and+child+worship&aq=0&oq=mother+and+child+wor

I agree that mother and child worship is older than the Babylonian system, however, what you would need to do is explain away all those parts of the Catholic Church not influenced either by Rome, or any Pagan Mother and Child Worship system have devotion to Mary. Some of these Apostolically planted churches also have no love lost on Rome.

First of all, I want to say this: The only way I see the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints being attacked is by citing a few verses that at first glance seem to contradict the VOLUME of verses that establish the doctrine. I’m sure you have had those verses listed before your eyes more than once.

I can understand why you see it that way. You don’t realize that Scripture does not form doctrine, people do. The Catholic Church, from the Apostles, established the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. During the reformation, there were some men who altered the doctrine to suit themselves. Itching ears, I expect. I is not verses that “establish” doctrine, but people. People use the scriptures to support their doctrine, just as the Arians used the same scriptures to support that Jesus was not God.

We are not “attacking” this doctrine, but defending the Apostolic Teaching from misunderstandings of it.

It is very GOOD to bring verses to bear in an argument (discussion ) just as you are doing, but not if you cannot exegete the other verses and harmonize ALL.

I agree, but I would add that they need to harmonize with the faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles. Interpreting scripture apart from that leads to all kinds of errors.

I don’t see that happening. But I will harmonize here. I doubt you will like the explanation, because I think we are dealing with pride of position. But here goes…

As you seem to see yourself as the only one who can properly exegete, who is it that is suffereing from pride?

The Hebrews passage is written to …Hebrews! There were many who were saved, and there were many who were tasting and had not yet fully come over to embrace the gospel. Some were falling back to the Law and the old ways as their hope for salvation. The writer of Hebrews is addressing that phenomenon.

This statement is false, and easily refuted from within the book of Hebrews itself. I am happy to do so, but first I want to wait to see if you will be around long enough to participate in such a discussion. Basically what you are saying here is that these passages don’t apply to Christians.

NOWHERE IN EITHER OF THESE PASSAGES DOES IT SAY THESE PEOPLE WERE SAVED, BORN AGAIN, OR CHRIST’S.

Well, we read them differently.

Lastly, John’s words shed much light on this phenomenon:
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”–I John 2:19*

There are several references to those who do not belong. There are also references to those that belong, then leave. It is possible to have one’s name blotted out of the book of life.

It is possible to be a partaker (member) of His grace, then to fall from it. It is possible to be cut off from grace.

The whole concept of a mortal sin is, I think, suspect.  I don't find it in Scripture

This just shows that you are reading scripture with your anti-catholic blinders on. It also shows that whatever you cannot “see” in scripture is suspect, which is further evidence that you have made yourself the standard of truth.

Jesus seemed to get far more upset with the hypocricies of the pharisees than He did with the adulterers, thieves…

And your point is?

You think that the sins of the faithless were less “sinful” because they were unreligious?

 

[jmcrae]

Paul was not Catholic in your sense at all. He opposed people who did what the RCC has a tendency to do–add to the simple gospel that frees people. You want to bind them to traditions that the Canon knows nothing about. You can say that Scriptures don’t teach all you want.

When it gets up in front of a classroom and starts accepting questions from the students, we can start to say that it “teaches” but until then, it’s a reference book; not a teacher.

I am way underimpressed with your vain repetitions of the party line that is off-base. I will close this portion of the conversation with this verse where Paul tells Timothy the exact opposite of what you said above. Maybe the reason that for you, the Scriptures don’t teach is that you don’t have the Teacher living inside you.

Catholics get the Teacher inside them every time they receive Holy Communion.

But we don’t confuse the Teacher with the teachings, nor with the ink and paper book that is called the Bible. Jesus and the Bible are not one and the same thing.

Just a thought to ponder.

You seem so underwhelmed with the majesty of the simple gospel, of grace, and of the power of the Scriptures.

When being read by a reader, proclaimed by a proclaimer, and taught by a teacher, they are powerful indeed. But with the covers shut and sitting on a top shelf collecting dust, they do nothing at all.

St. Paul says that they are useful for teaching, reproof, etc. - but it is human beings who need to use them for teaching, reproving, etc. - they don’t have legs of their own, and they don’t jump off the dusty shelf and start doing these things all by themselves.

 

[nbtb1348]

WRONG.
Every one of these verses is about those who have KNOWN the truth and have fallen away. Again with the rationalizations . . .

---

Every verse I provided you with is perfectly harmonious with these verses.
These verses speak of the HOPE of salvation IF we truly believe. To TRULY believe, we must submit ourselves to OBEDIENCE. (Romans 1:5 and 16:26) I means to believe and accept EVERYTHING the Lord has revealed.
If you have faith and have no obedience of faith, how does that faith Justify? (James 2)

---

You can’t have it both ways

You poor guy. No amazing grace for you!!!

Knowing the truth is a whole lot different than being regenerated because of it!

So, rather than Rom 8:15 and elsewhere, you have received a spirit of bondage to fear, while we have received a spirit of adoption whereby we cry ‘Abba Father’

Read Romans 1-8 about five times and you will either throw up or give up your legalism!

 

[guanophore]

Paul was not Catholic in your sense at all. He opposed people who did what the RCC has a tendency to do–add to the simple gospel that frees people.

I can understand why it seems that way to you, since you have been separated from the Apostolic Traditions, and don’t recognize that they are part of Jesus’ teachings. Since your early experience was not 'free" then I can also see why you missed the message of grace.

You want to bind them to traditions that the Canon knows nothing about.  You can say that Scriptures don't teach all you want.

Actually, the Canon itself is a Sacred Tradition. It always amazes me that anti-Catholics will accept this, and yet reject the other teachings that came before it.

I am way underimpressed with your vain repetitions of the party line that is off-base.  I will close this portion of the conversation with this verse where Paul tells Timothy the exact opposite of what you said above.  Maybe the reason that for you, the Scriptures don't teach is that you don't have the Teacher living inside you.   Just a thought to ponder.  You seem so underwhelmed with the majesty of the simple gospel, of grace, and of the power  of the Scriptures.

Here’s the verse from II Timothy 315. Don’t dare re-read vs 16

"…and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

Paul was referring here to the OT, since the NT did not yet exist. no one, apart from Apostolic Teaching, would be able to become wise through faith in Christ using the OT. I wonder what your church today would do, if you did not have a NT?

 

[guanophore]

Guano, how can you make such a lame statement? Of course they devoted themselves to those things!! And so do we. This discussion has nothing to do with what a follower of Christ does after he is saved!

Since the Apostles taught that we are saved after we leave this life in a state of grace, it is clear that what we do after we are saved is enjoy the fellowship of His presence in heaven. The notion that we are saved once in time, for all time, is immature, and a reflection of fear that is common to man.’

On the contrary, the Apostles taught that elements of our salvation occur at baptism, then through this life,we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and at the end of our days, if we finish the race, we will gain the prize. They taugh that salvation is past, present, and future.

Belieivng one has already attained that which is perfect is called the sin of presumption.

 I was talking about what Scripture says is necessary to RECEIVE eternal life and be adopted into the family of God!  How many times do we have to tell you that the works follow as evidence that there was real new birth.

As many as you wish to type it, I guess.
It will not alter the apostolic teaching that good works bring more grace into our lives and draw us to the prize.

Don't keep hiding behind that.  Faith saves, and works follow.  But faith saves.  You are doing exactly what Paul cursed.  So if you want to continue, then stand in line and accept his pronouncement upon your head.

I am not sure what you mean by this, but Paul was talking about the Mosaic law, not the works of righteousness that God created for us to walk in before the foundation of time.

***“not by works of righteousness ***which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”–Titus 3:5

A reference to the salvific effects of baptism, through which we are washed, regenerated, made into His adopted sons.
nbtb1348;4718649:

"For by grace you have been

saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone (like Guanophore) should boast."–Eph 2:8,9

Did you somehow get the impression I was boasting in my “good works”? Did you get the impression that I thought I was saved by them? Maybe you are getting frustrated, and not reading the posts?

 

[guanophore]

He carried EVERY sin I would ever commit with him to the cross and my sins were punished there.

Actually, it doesn’t say that. This is a man made doctrine, that emerged 1500 years after the Apostles.

The 'handwriting of ordinances which were against [me]" was blotted out! -Colossians Gone! I’m free. No possible condemnation even exists in the universe for me EVER AGAIN!

Paul was talking about the ordinances of the Mosaic Law. Jesus was clear that those who love Him will follow His commandments. Of those who do not, he says “I never knew you”. Being covered in grace is not a license to sin.

“Therefore, there is now *no *condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”–Rom 8:1

Mortal sin separates us from God. The nature of sin has not changed “this side of the cross”. Sin separated us in the garden, and it still separates us. When we sin, we bring condemnation upon ourselves.

What you don’t get is that when God saves a person in a moment of time, He planned it from all eternity past. At least 30 things happen to that person the moment he or she is saved, including the death of the old man, the fusing of his spirit with His Spirit, and this is no shaky little last minute, tentative thing God does.

We get that fine! We get it in baptism.

It is HUGE and it is forever.

It can be, but is not necessarily.

Maybe you need to ask yourself if at the point your trace your new birth back to, something HUGE happened to you? Or did you just get wet and join a church? I’m dead serious. Could be the best thing you ever do–asking that question.

It is true that some people grow up in the faith and never have a “Paul on the road to Damascus” type experience. Polycarp may have been such a one, baptized as an infant.

This does not make their faith less genuine. I am glad you had a HUGE thing happen to you spiritually, and that you now have a love for the Word of God.

 

[MDK]

The big difference between Catholic Church and various Protestant churches is in how the word of God is taught. In the Catholic Church, the word of God is taught infallibly due to the Spirit, in spite of the flesh. In the various Protestant faith systems, the word of God is distorted and perverted by the flesh, in spite of the Spirit.

The problem seems to be that of authority. Catholics submit to the authority established by Christ. Protestants put themselves in the place of that authority, in a usurping role. It’s not difficult to see what can happen as a result of usurping the authority set up through Christ. Evidence is all around us in the form of conflicting doctrine, and the rejection of Sacraments.

 

[guanophore]

When it gets up in front of a classroom and starts accepting questions from the students, we can start to say that it “teaches” but until then, it’s a reference book; not a teacher.

Catholics get the Teacher inside them every time they receive Holy Communion.

But we don’t confuse the Teacher with the teachings, nor with the ink and paper book that is called the Bible. Jesus and the Bible are not one and the same thing.



When being read by a reader, proclaimed by a proclaimer, and taught by a teacher, they are powerful indeed. But with the covers shut and sitting on a top shelf collecting dust, they do nothing at all.

St. Paul says that they are useful for teaching, reproof, etc. - but it is human beings who need to use them for teaching, reproving, etc. - they don’t have legs of their own, and they don’t jump off the dusty shelf and start doing these things all by themselves.

LOL! I loved this post. :clapping:

 

[guanophore]

You poor guy. No amazing grace for you!!!

when did God die, and leave you in charge of who gets his amazing grace?

Knowing the truth is a whole lot different than being regenerated because of it!

I am not so sure. When scripture speaks of “knowing” it is usually a reference to the experiential knowledge. This is what is meant in the book of Heb. when the writer speaks of “partaking” of His grace. “tasting” means being part of the communion.

So, rather than Rom 8:15 and elsewhere, you have received a spirit of bondage to fear, while we have received a spirit of adoption whereby we cry ‘Abba Father’

Read Romans 1-8 about five times and you will either throw up or give up your legalism!

nbtb, obedience to the commandments of God is not “legalism”. For those who are in a state of grace, obedience is not burdensome. Crying “Abba” is not an excuse to violate the commandments of God.

 

[Doc2be]

***“not by works of righteousness ***which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”–Titus 3:5

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone (like Guanophore) should boast.”–Eph 2:8,9

nbtb1348 have you ever read the verses directly proximal to these verses you keep quoting?

Here:

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Should we just throw the bold and underlined verse out of the Bible? Or do you just choose not to read it? Maybe you can explain to me what Paul means when he says “created in Christ Jesus to do good works.” Plus, Paul is talking about how people worshiped idols and were completely disobedient to the Will of God and that God saved us, through His son, not because we wanted Him to, but because He wanted to save us. That is how God’s grace has saved us, because God Choose to save us because he loved us and not because of some works we did to merit our salvation. This is all talking about BC or before Christ vs 1-7. Now that we have been saved through the sacrifice of Christ who came down from heaven not because of our works or deeds but because God wanted to. "It is not from works so no one can boast (v. 9) is referring to the salvation that God has granted us from our previously disobedient ways. It is not by some deed of a great king that God had mercy, it is by God’s simple will that Christ came to us…that is the work Paul is referring to, if you read the whole passage. If you read verses 8 and 9 by themselves you can read what you want to read into it, you can take the words out of context.

Now for your Titus quote:

1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.

3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Verse 5 which you quote again speaks of righteous deeds done by man to bring about the salvation offered through Christ. These refer to deeds done before the birth of Christ that warranted His coming. Of course, humanity did nothing to warrant salvation, it was God’s choice and His alone…it was “His Mercy” that saved us. If you read verse 5 in the context of verse 4 you can see this.

“4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,”

Christ came to save us not because of some righteous deed but because God choose to do so. Paul goes on in verses 6 and 7 to speak about the Holy Spirit which renews us in the bath of rebirth which is poured out on us through Jesus Christ. Through this grace we are justified, but where does it say through this grace alone are we justified? Also in Titus 3:8 why does he have to tell Christians to be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. Maybe doing good works is not a done deal if you just say you accept Christ? Maybe Paul knew this and wanted to make sure that Christians not only accepted Christ as their savior but did good works for the benefit of others in obedience to God’s Will.

God Bless.

 

[elvisman]

You poor guy. No amazing grace for you!!!

Knowing the truth is a whole lot different than being regenerated because of it!

So, rather than Rom 8:15 and elsewhere, you have received a spirit of bondage to fear, while we have received a spirit of adoption whereby we cry ‘Abba Father’

Read Romans 1-8 about five times and you will either throw up or give up your legalism!

WRONG** again.**
There is PLENTY of amazing grace for me.
Unfortunately, as the song goes, the writer – and you – had it wrong. It’s not from the hour you first believe. If you could p(name removed by moderator)oint your salvation like that, St. Paul wouldn’t have claimed that we should “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. Jesus wouldn’t have said that those who “persevere to the end will be saved.” (Matt. 24:13)

---

Again – the reason you believe that you cannot lose your salvation is because you believe that salvation is a one-time occurrence in the middle of your life. Sanctification is an ongoing process. Our Redemption from what Jesus did on the cross is a one-time occurrence. Oh, wait – you thought that was the same thing??

---

Paul didn’t teach that salvation was instantaneous. He still worked out his salvation with fear and trembling. He knew that it was a process and that is what he taught. So did Jesus. So did Peter and the rest. It was only 1500 years later that you Protestants taught a different message.

---

From your previous post – you don’t even know the context of the people he was preaching to. The “Hebrews” (if St. Paul was indeed the author) were Christianized Hebrews who knew the truth and were Followers of Jesus and had lost their way. That is the basis of the letter.

---

**Lastly - I should read Romans 1-8 until I vomit? What does that mean? I LOVE Romans – and every other Letter in the New Testament. When read in context with all of Scripture and understood, it backs the Catholic position. **

---

It is you, my confused friend, who have twisted the scriptures to your own destruction.

 

[nbtb1348]

I can understand why it seems that way to you, since you have been separated from the Apostolic Traditions, and don’t recognize that they are part of Jesus’ teachings. Since your early experience was not 'free" then I can also see why you missed the message of grace.

Actually, the Canon itself is a Sacred Tradition. It always amazes me that anti-Catholics will accept this, and yet reject the other teachings that came before it.

Paul was referring here to the OT, since the NT did not yet exist. no one, apart from Apostolic Teaching, would be able to become wise through faith in Christ using the OT. I wonder what your church today would do, if you did not have a NT?

Doesn’t matter what he was referring to. All Scripture is given by ispiration of God and is profitable…

Jesus said that wherever two or three are gathered in His name, He is in the midst. Period.

Everyone begins in bondage to sin. Christ sets us free, ONLY IF WE ARE BORN FROM ABOVE. Then the enemy comes in and tries to rob a believer of their incredible freedom in Christ by laying other things on them. This has nothing to do with a believer’s desire to obey his Savior. It has everything to do with someone else wanting to control and limit the grace of God. It is as old as the Church itself. Again, Paul clearly pronounces the curse.

We fully embrace Apostolic teaching. Our hearts have been shaped for it by the Holy Spirit the moment we were saved. I hope you get to experience that, Guanophore. I am praying for you as I write. God bless.

 

[jmcrae]

Doesn’t matter what he was referring to. All Scripture is given by ispiration of God and is profitable…

Well, I think it does matter. Timothy had no New Testament. He couldn’t just look up John 3:16 and read - it hadn’t been written, yet.

He was interpreting the Old Testament in the light of the Apostolic Tradition that was being given to him by St. Paul, who in his turn was receiving it from Peter and James.

Please notice also that St. Paul describes the Scriptures as being “profitable for” - not as being “solely sufficient for” the building up of the Kingdom.

 

[nbtb1348]

Unfortunately, as the song goes, the writer – and you – had it wrong. It’s not from the hour you first believe. If you could p(name removed by moderator)oint your salvation like that, St. Paul wouldn’t have claimed that we should “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. Jesus wouldn’t have said that those who “persevere to the end will be saved.” (Matt. 24:13)]

You don’t understand Romans. And it is clear from many Scriptures that Paul ABSOLUTELY treats the new birth as something that happens at a moment in time. Your unfortunate citing of Phil 2:12 happens OVER AND OVER AGAIN by Romanists! And once again, since you haven’t had the privilege of hearing it, I will explain, hopefully not to deaf ears: Paul says “work OUT your salvation”, not “work FOR your salvation”. The sad thing is, you are working FOR yours, while we are working OUT ours. Problem is, if you are doing the former, you don’t have salvation at all. God won’t give it to you. Becuase, you see, it is a totally FREE GIFT and God refuses to give it to people who insist on paying for part of it. He absolutely refuses."…that no one can boast."

Now here are a FEW of the verses where Paul confirms to us that know, that the new birth happens at a moment in time. (Isn’t that amazing…my physical birth happened exactly the same way. Guess that’s why Jesus said “YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!”)
I John 5:1,18-- Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ IS born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him…… For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I John 2-- If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

II Cor 1
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also HAS sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1- (All past tense—DONE!)*

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who** is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2—(notice past tense—DONE)**
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:5-- He saved us, (past tense) not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (done) and renewing (done) by the Holy Spirit,

I Peter 1—
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade— kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[jmcrae]

Nbtb;

A Catholic gets his salvation by being baptized into the Church; he does this when he is a baby. It is not “hard work” - it is free grace from God.

He keeps his salvation by not committing any sins.

If he sins, he goes to the Sacrament of Reconcilation and receives free forgiveness for his sins. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is also not “hard work”; seven year old children are able to do this.

Additionally, a Catholic can increase in grace (not “earn salvation” - if he has not sinned since his baptism or since his last good Confession, he is already “saved”) by performing works of mercy such as visiting the sick and the prisoners, burying the dead, preaching the Gospel, etc.

I’m just clarifying that for you, since you seem to think that Catholics “work” for salvation.

 

[Matariel]

You don’t understand Romans. And it is clear from many Scriptures that Paul ABSOLUTELY treats the new birth as something that happens at a moment in time. Your unfortunate citing of Phil 2:12 happens OVER AND OVER AGAIN by Romanists!

Using epithets, such as “Romanists”, “Papists”, etc. is strictly forbidden by CAF rules. If I catch you using such phrases again I will call a moderator.

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t matter what he was referring to. All Scripture is given by ispiration of God and is profitable…

I am surprised you would say this. You seem to have such a love of scripture, and are into “exegesis”. The truth is that it DOES matter what the Apostle was referring to when he wrote this passage. It matters because it helps us to understand the meaning of the passage, and how it applies to us.

Jesus said that wherever two or three are gathered in His name, He is in the midst. Period.

When people gather “in His name” it is a reference to all that He is, and all that He represents. He is the Head of the Body, the Church. His Church is in unity with Him. When we gather in His name, we are in that unity. Otherwise, we are just fooling ourselves.

Everyone begins in bondage to sin. Christ sets us free, ONLY IF WE ARE BORN FROM ABOVE. Then the enemy comes in and tries to rob a believer of their incredible freedom in Christ by laying other things on them. This has nothing to do with a believer’s desire to obey his Savior. It has everything to do with someone else wanting to control and limit the grace of God. It is as old as the Church itself. Again, Paul clearly pronounces the curse.

I will agree that the attacks of the enemy to lay things on the believer are, indeed, as old as the Church. However, it is the Church that triumphs over these attacks. She does because Jesus promised that the gates of hell (teaching of error) would not prevail. It is His infallibility that makes the Church unable to err.

We fully embrace Apostolic teaching.

Your posts have made it clear that this is not the case. However, I believe that you think you do, and that your failure to do so result from misunderstandings and ignorance of what they taught. You are clearly doing the best you can with what you have, limited though it is.

Our hearts have been shaped for it by the Holy Spirit the moment we were saved. I hope you get to experience that, Guanophore. I am praying for you as I write. God bless.

Thank you for your prayers. Every little bit helps! It was quite some time after I got “saved” and had the “personal Lord and saviour” experience that I returned to the One True Church founded by Christ. I did not know that all those other denominations were founded by men, separated from the Apostolic Tradition. I was in ignorance and misunderstanding too.

 

[elvisman]

You don’t understand Romans. And it is clear from many Scriptures that Paul ABSOLUTELY treats the new birth as something that happens at a moment in time. Your unfortunate citing of Phil 2:12 happens OVER AND OVER AGAIN by Romanists! And once again, since you haven’t had the privilege of hearing it, I will explain, hopefully not to deaf ears: Paul says “work OUT your salvation”, not “work FOR your salvation”. The sad thing is, you are working FOR yours, while we are working OUT ours. Problem is, if you are doing the former, you don’t have salvation at all. God won’t give it to you. Becuase, you see, it is a totally FREE GIFT and God refuses to give it to people who insist on paying for part of it. He absolutely refuses."…that no one can boast." Now here are a FEW of the verses where Paul confirms to us that know, that the new birth happens at a moment in time. (Isn’t that amazing…my physical birth happened exactly the same way. Guess that’s why Jesus said “YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!”)

WRONG again, friend.
First off – as Matariel has already pointed out – stop the name-calling. I’m a Catholic – not a “Romanist”. If you can’t have a charitable debate – go somewhere else. There’s no room for that immature and un-Christian behavior here.
**Secondly, your use of semantics is silly. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” means exactly what it says. You’re bobbing and weaving here because you can’t come up with anything to compare with the Catholic interpretation, nay the only interpretation of this passage as believed for 1500 years. Why? Because it’s the only one that makes sense. **
If only a “simple” faith is necessary, what would there be to work out with “fear and trambling”. Your case would be thrown out of any court.

First off, Paul says many times that even HE wasn’t certain that he was going to heaven.
**"I pummel my body and subdue it,lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).
Doesn’t sound like assurance to me. This is an admission that even he could fall away.

Acts 2:47 says:
**"And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved."
PRESENT tense - NOT past. It’s a process, my vitriolic friend.

Romans 5:9-10 says:
**“How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled,will we be saved by his life.”
FUTURE tense.

1 Cor. 3:12-15 he tells us:
**“If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.”
FUTURE tense.

Jesus tells us (Luke 8:13):
**“Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.”
This is about Christians who lose their faith and fall away – NOT those who NEVER WERE Christians. To believe anything different is to call our Lord a liar.

Finally, in 1 Tim 2:11-12, Paul says:
***This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; ***
**if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. **
Again - FUTURE tense.

 

[nbtb1348]

WRONG again, friend.
**
**First off, Paul says many times that even ****HE wasn’t certain that he was going to heaven.
***“I pummel my body and subdue it,***lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).
**Doesn’t sound like assurance to me. This is an admission that even **he could fall away.

Acts 2:47 says:
***“And every day the Lord added to their number those who ***were being saved.”
PRESENT tense - NOT past. It’s a process, my vitriolic friend.

Romans 5:9-10 says:
***“How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled,***will we be saved by his life.”
FUTURE tense.

1 Cor. 3:12-15 he tells us:
***“If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It ***will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.”
FUTURE tense.

**Jesus tells us (**Luke 8:13):
***“Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; ***they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.”
**This is about Christians who lose their faith and fall away – **NOT those who NEVER WERE Christians. To believe anything different is to call our Lord a liar.

**Finally, in **1 Tim 2:11-12, Paul says:
***This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; ***
if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.
Again - FUTURE tense.

There are 3 tenses to sanctification. But Paul makes it clear in Rom 8:29-30 that all he justifies will experience the final sanctification (glorification). I pray you can follow the beautiful chain of logic and theology in this passage. You believe God leaves the eternal destiny of those he has brought into his family, up to THEM. We believe when he planned in eternity past to save us, He committed to see his children through to the end. That’s the God of the Bible, the heavenly Father.

*“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed *to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Two more pearls for you…

“Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”–Rom 5:9,10

See if this describes you. If not…

*“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!”-- II Cor 5:17 *

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.