Bigger Government or Smaller?

[LemonAndLime]

How can you rob from the poor? The poor don’t have anything to steal.

Whereas the rich have the money to stop themselves being robbed. Who do taxes hit the most? Who makes the decisions about who gets taxed?

 

[RWMorris]

Big government doesn’t work. When it comes down to it, we don’t want the government to control us or what we do. We have the 10th amendment for a reason although its been forgotten. One day the people of America will realize that the only way for this country to get back to its roots is for the government to get out of our business and just do the things necessary to keep us going.

The problem Leslie, is there are are a large number of voters who are more than willing to trade our liberty for their security.

 

[coolduude]

The problem Leslie, is there are are a large number of voters who are more than willing to trade our liberty for their security.

Reference Thomas Hobbes’ work Leviathan for more info on that.

 

[Ruthyankees]

Whereas the rich have the money to stop themselves being robbed. Who do taxes hit the most? Who makes the decisions about who gets taxed?

ideally we would all be taxed EQUALLY, the fact that people want the “rich” to get taxed more, IMO is disturbing. punish them for success? In this country everyone can work hard to become successful. if one is upset with their fiscal sitution, then change it. And also, the people (us) chose who gets taxed. not only do we get to vote on lots of local taxes, but we vote for out representatives. so we, in turn, “make those decisions”

 

[John21652]

Well said. I, too, have no desire to live in a country where the government controls absolutely everything. I seem to recall Germany tried that in the 1930s and '40s. It didn’t work out so well.

You’re right, but the Germans really screwed up the idea of Big Government. I mean, Adolf had deputies he trusted, like Himmler and Goering and they managed big government departments. They stuffed up big time. The ones who got big government nearly working properly were Stalin and Mao. Those two replaced bureaucratic innefficiency with more fear. Worked a treat. They made millions poor and the rest they killed off. Big government and representative democracy don’t go together too well. If you want to make big government work properly, you need to stifle the democratic process so you can pull the wool over people’s eyes more easily. Look at how successful big government was under Mao. Everyone ended up on the same page. Of course the big government made that much easy to achieve because they just printed less pages. Mao’s Little Red Book worked a treat because it was, well, little. Bureacracies are notoriously difficult beasts to manage. They become like little governments, making their own rules and regulations and always demanding more and more cash. Under a mix of democracy and big government you either have to pay them lots more to keep them onside, or wrap them up with more and more rules and regulations to keep them under control. It’s all so inneficient. Stalin really had them in line and working well. Dissenters he shot. Much cheaper, saves argument and doesn’t waste the time of courts, a parliament, and it stops the media from focusing on silly issues when they should be focusing on the great achievments of the supreme and dear leaders who lead big governments.

 

[LemonAndLime]

ideally we would all be taxed EQUALLY, the fact that people want the “rich” to get taxed more, IMO is disturbing. punish them for success? In this country everyone can work hard to become successful. if one is upset with their fiscal sitution, then change it. And also, the people (us) chose who gets taxed. not only do we get to vote on lots of local taxes, but we vote for out representatives. so we, in turn, “make those decisions”

American dream… no one wants to vote for higher taxes on the rich incase they themselves become rich, as being rich is “successful”.

An income tax of say, 10%, is going to hit the poor harder than the rich. That’s why we shoudn’t be taxed the same. If we’re talking about fairness, why is it fair that one family have to struggle to pay taxes while some milionnaire pays it in their equivilant of small change?

 

[RWMorris]

American dream… no one wants to vote for higher taxes on the rich incase they themselves become rich, as being rich is “successful”.

An income tax of say, 10%, is going to hit the poor harder than the rich. That’s why we shoudn’t be taxed the same. If we’re talking about fairness, why is it fair that one family have to struggle to pay taxes while some milionnaire pays it in their equivilant of small change?

The problem is that someone gets to decide how the progression is determined, and that is tyrannous of the majority.

Then again, the fact that using a standard deduction for all taxpayers results is a true tax rate (given your suggested 10%) ranging from zero for low income people to 10% for high income people sounds somewhat reasonable.

 

[stinkcat_14]

So your theory is rob from the poor? Nursing home coverage, medicare…

Actually medicare does not provide health care for the poor. It provides health care for people above 65, most of whom have the means to pay for their health care. There is no reason for the government to be involved in providing healthcare to this group of people who can take care of themselves. Its called taking responsibility.

 

[coolduude]

Actually medicare does not provide health care for the poor. It provides health care for people above 65, most of whom have the means to pay for their health care. There is no reason for the government to be involved in providing healthcare to this group of people who can take care of themselves. Its called taking responsibility.

I agree with your position. But for the sake of debate, what would happen to the people in that group that can’t legitimately take care of themselves? Taking responsibility only goes so far. What would they do if they can’t help themselves?

 

[stinkcat_14]

I agree with your position. But for the sake of debate, what would happen to the people in that group that can’t legitimately take care of themselves? Taking responsibility only goes so far. What would they do if they can’t help themselves?

That is where the Church should step in, but I would not be against the government having a role to play for people who are poor and are unable to work. The problem, however is setting up a program that mitigates the behavior problems that always come with government programs. For example, if we give health care to the poor elderly, some of them will give money to their kids or stash it overseas and magically become poor. But we just cannot afford the “you hit the magic number so here are your goodies and cash”.

 

[RWMorris]

I agree with your position. But for the sake of debate, what would happen to the people in that group that can’t legitimately take care of themselves? Taking responsibility only goes so far. What would they do if they can’t help themselves?

Why can’t Medicare have a deductible that requires an insured person to use a set percentage of their personal wealth before the taxpayers have to ante up for the rest?

 

[coolduude]

Why can’t Medicare have a deductible that requires an insured person to use a set percentage of their personal wealth before the taxpayers have to ante up for the rest?

Makes sense to me

 

[ProVobis]

I’ll tell you this: I’d much rather live in a country full of corrupt CEOs than a country in which CEOs are micromanaged by corrupt politicians.

Corporations and their ability to get the Fed to print money for them now control the government, which is supposed to be OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people.

If you want less government, kill the FED, kill the Cabinet, make Congresspeople employ staff at their own expense, and defund the schools. And that’s just for starters.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

ideally we would all be taxed EQUALLY, the fact that people want the “rich” to get taxed more, IMO is disturbing. **punish them for success? In this country everyone can work hard to become successful. **if one is upset with their fiscal sitution, then change it. And also, the people (us) chose who gets taxed. not only do we get to vote on lots of local taxes, but we vote for out representatives. so we, in turn, “make those decisions”

Our income tax system is based on the sins of coveting and envy. This nation used to be viewed as “the land of opportunity.” Now it’s more like “The Land of What Can I get Without Earning Any of It.”

 

[ProVobis]

Big government doesn’t work. When it comes down to it, we don’t want the government to control us or what we do.

Problem is the Chinese and Japanese control us. We (the Government) OWE them for their low-interest loans. This $14 Trillion debt didn’t happen overnight, either.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

That is where the Church should step in, but I would not be against the government having a role to play for people who are poor and are unable to work. The problem, however is setting up a program that mitigates the behavior problems that always come with government programs. For example, if we give health care to the poor elderly, some of them will give money to their kids or stash it overseas and magically become poor. But we just cannot afford the “you hit the magic number so here are your goodies and cash”.

Actually, the hierarchy of care should be:

1. Family
2. Neighborhood
3. Church (2 & 3 are inter-changeable and some might see church before neighborhood)
4. Larger area such as city
5. State
6. etc.
7. Federal government (none of the poor would ever make it to this level nor should they, having been served at the immediate and local level and made to return the favor).

Letting the state and federal government take over our responsibilities as individuals and the Church dehumanizes the people in need and causes us to shrug our shoulders and think “I already do enough.”

 

[ProVobis]

Our income tax system is based on the sins of coveting and envy. This nation used to be viewed as “the land of opportunity.” Now it’s more like “The Land of What Can I get Without Earning Any of It.”

What about our state, property, and sales taxes? Seems as if property taxes take away your ability to own anything unconditionally.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Why can’t Medicare have a deductible that requires an insured person to use a set percentage of their personal wealth before the taxpayers have to ante up for the rest?

Or at least set the minimum estate tax equal to what your health costs during your lifetime were. Although I imagine there are clever lawyers and accountants who would find a way around this.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

American dream… no one wants to vote for higher taxes on the rich incase they themselves become rich, as being rich is “successful”.

An income tax of say, 10%, is going to hit the poor harder than the rich. That’s why we shoudn’t be taxed the same. If we’re talking about fairness, why is it fair that one family have to struggle to pay taxes while some millionaire pays it in their equivalent of small change?

Most people with low income in this country don’t pay taxes. If taxes are withdrawn from their paycheck, they get it all back at the end of the tax year in the form of a refund. So this idea of people struggling to pay their taxes is false. And they receive a lot of free stuff from the government such as education for their children, as well as being eligible for food cards and Medicaid.

The “wealthy” pay a heck of a lot more than 10% and it does not amount to “small change.” The top 10% of income earners in this country pay 70% of the taxes.

 

[PPeterson]

The problem, however is setting up a program that mitigates the behavior problems that always come with government programs. For example, if we give health care to the poor elderly, some of them will give money to their kids or stash it overseas and magically become poor. But we just cannot afford the “you hit the magic number so here are your goodies and cash”.

I think another problem is the assumption that there are easy answers to the problems you noted. Trying to figure out who is deserving versus who is scamming takes more government. Skipping this because it creates more government leads to more scamming. social welfare is one of those things where the perfect quickly becomes the enemy of the good.