Biggest Error of Protestant Reformers

[rjs1]

dfkuz:

The Reformers’ biggest error was to hold onto infant baptism in their churches. Water baptism was part of Israel’s program for induction into the priesthood (Ex. 29:4) and remission of sins (Acts 2:38), but under the program for the Body of Christ made known to Paul, we are to be followers of Paul as he follows Christ (1 Cor. 11:1) and he declares in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. Israel required a sign; we walk by faith. There is but one baptism (Eph. 4:5) and that is supernaturally performed by the Holy Spirit the instant we believe the gospel. Believing that the agency of water can effect any or all of our initial salvation is a dangerous and immature error.

It’s a shame that you have decided to reject the clear words of Jesus Our Lord, in Holy Scripture - “Unless one is born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:50) and “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)
In addition there are numerous references in the New Testament to the fact that immediately after a person or family or crowd heard the message of the Christian faith, and decided to become followers of Jesus, they were baptised.

All this you have rejected - because, like the original Reformers and their followers ever since, you have set yourself up as an infallible interpreter of God’s message. As I said before, this is the sin of Adam, the most dangerous of all sins, the sin of pride.

 

[Character_Zero]

Sola Scriptura is the worst heresy. When each man becomes his own pope, he can throw any other doctrine out the window. And look how divided Christians are!! When you throw out Apostolic tradition and an infallible Magisterium you are going to get doctrinal chaos.
According to Calvin’s principle of “I know the Bible is inspired because the Holy Spirit tells me,” Joseph Smith “proved” that the Book of Mormon was inspired because the BoM said so!
Luther even admitted the problems that his “The Bible is its own interpreter” and Sola Scriptura doctrines caused:

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgement; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth his prophecies as ravings and dreams.”
Sorry, I better stop or I will go on a rant.

 

[dfkuz]

Regarding comments defending the practice of infant baptism, or water baptism in general, I would just like to point out that Jesus Christ was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as salvation was to be sent to the whole world through the redeemed house of Israel as prophesied by God throughout the Old Testament. Israel was to become a nation of priests and kings ministering God’s salvation to the Gentile nations. (Is. 61:6) With their abject failure to accept this role, and with the ‘last straw’ of stoning Stephen as he made them aware of this while filled with the Holy Spirit (see Matt.12:31), God began to set aside His program with Israel, while He began something completely new with His message of Grace through the apostle Paul sent directly to all mankind w/o going through the agency of the Chosen Nation. Water baptism, required for the remission of sins under Israel’s program, continued to be performed during the transition period covered by the Book of Acts, but Paul makes no mention of it in his later letters, and denigrates it in 1 Cor. 1. The Hebrew epistles found following Paul’s letters, Hebrews through Revelation, are waiting for their future application when God again resumes His prophetic program with Israel, and through them, the world, which will take place after God removes our mystery program along with the Body of Christ when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and this Dispensation of Grace ends with the Rapture.

More information may be found at www.bereanbiblesociety.org where the book, ‘Things That Differ,’ by C.R. Stam may be ordered.

2 Timothy 2:15: ‘Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.’

 

[rjs1]

dfkuz:

Regarding comments defending the practice of infant baptism, or water baptism in general, I would just like to point out that Jesus Christ was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as salvation was to be sent to the whole world through the redeemed house of Israel as prophesied by God throughout the Old Testament. Israel was to become a nation of priests and kings ministering God’s salvation to the Gentile nations. (Is. 61:6) With their abject failure to accept this role, and with the ‘last straw’ of stoning Stephen as he made them aware of this while filled with the Holy Spirit (see Matt.12:31), God began to set aside His program with Israel, while He began something completely new with His message of Grace through the apostle Paul sent directly to all mankind w/o going through the agency of the Chosen Nation. Water baptism, required for the remission of sins under Israel’s program, continued to be performed during the transition period covered by the Book of Acts, but Paul makes no mention of it in his later letters, and denigrates it in 1 Cor. 1. The Hebrew epistles found following Paul’s letters, Hebrews through Revelation, are waiting for their future application when God again resumes His prophetic program with Israel, and through them, the world, which will take place after God removes our mystery program along with the Body of Christ when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and this Dispensation of Grace ends with the Rapture.

More information may be found at www.bereanbiblesociety.org where the book, ‘Things That Differ,’ by C.R. Stam may be ordered.

2 Timothy 2:15: ‘Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.’

I’m afraid somebody is giving you apallingly bad Bible instruction. The statement that water baptism is allowed in the period covered by the Acts but not in Paul’s “later” epistles is absolute rubbish. The Epistles of Paul were written DURING the period covered by Acts, because St Luke in writing Acts, covers the whole time of Paul’s mission until Paul arrived in Rome and just before he was martyred. St Luke in fact during the Acts refers to the various places that to which Paul wrote his epistles. To say that Paul “denigrates” water baptism is nonsense. Give references for your remark so that we can reply to them.

 

[Giovanni]

I have to say, that the biggest error of the Protestant Reformers is that thy believe “they” have the truth, and catholics are somewhat mislead. Well, they are living in the shadow of a lie, all 20,000 Christian denominations, for the devil by his name and nature has succeeded in dividing the church, and up to this day, they are blind to the full truth of God’s Church on earth.
In the meantime, let us pray for our brothers and sisters, that one day we will all be one as God inteded it to be.

 

[RobHom]

The greatest errors are the “Sola’s”…they have been the foundation s for the “hijacking” of Christian beliefs… Based on those principles…any “semi-literate-self-educated-Bible-scholar”… can, does, and will claim to have all of the answers justifying his or her particular set of beliefs, and using those “bits and pieces” of scripture normally taken grossly out of context to condemn and bash anyone who does not “toe their particular line”… be it a Catholic or another protestant…

In conversations…real life and in forums, I am ever amazed at the “strange theologies” that some people embrace…its actually scary!

 

[puzzleannie]

our pastor in his sermon this morning on Romans, discussing baptism, pointed out the fundamental error of Luther and hence all the reformers: the view of the human soul as dirt, as essentially, able to be saved only through Jesus Christ covering his sins, but irredeemable in essence, the “snow-covered dunghill” view of salvation. From this anti-Catholic rejection of the essential goodness of humanity, and of all creation, flow all the other errors. The denial of the Eucharist, the Real Presence, the priesthood, the sacraments etc. all flow from the partial denial or refusal to accept all the implications of the Incarnation: that in assuming our human nature Christ affirmed its essential goodness, refusal to accept that Christ’s salvific act redeemed all of creation, affirmed the goodness of all created things, and that therefore the use of humble created things as efficacious signs and symbols of His action in our lives proves His activity in the sacraments, as during His earthly ministry.

Luther and the Reformers succumned to an idea that in the Catholic church emerged as the Jansenist heresy, and idea that goes back to the ancient heresy of Manicheeism, which held creation was essentially evil. Old heresies, new names, new manifestations. It is this denial of the goodness and value of creation that underlies the rejection of the sacramental economy as it exists in the Catholic church, relying as it does on “matter and form”, words & actions of creatures, signs and symbols taken from creation.

 

[dfkuz]

In regard to the objections of rjs 1, I would remind that I did reference my remark about Paul ‘denigrating’ water baptism with 1 Corinthians Chapter 1. The actual verses I was referring to are v.14-18: “I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius, lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect.”

Don’t you find it odd that if Paul was laboring under the so-called ‘great commission,’ given by Christ to His disciples before His ascension, in which baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation (Mark 16:16) and that everyone should do it (Matt. 28:19), that he could even make such a remark? The 12 were certainly sent to baptize, but Paul says for some reason, he wasn’t! My contention is that this is because Paul was given a new gospel in which only belief in Jesus Christ and His death for our sins is required! Paul’s epistles are filled with this idea, and later in 1 Cor. 1:21, he says, 'For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Now, if you make the mistake of going to Scriptures that are written to, for, and about Israel in their prophetic program with God, then you pervert the Gospel of pure Grace that Paul was given to preach. Water baptism did play a part in their program, but it now plays no part in ours. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism.’ Paul makes it clear throughout his epistles that when we believe, we are supernaturally baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13)…so, if there’s only one baptism, this is it. You can’t add another one (water) without contradicting Paul’s clear inspired statement here in Eph. 4:5.

Don’t you also find it odd that in the epistles that Paul did write after the Book of Acts period, which definitely include his prison epistles and pastoral epistles, that even with all of his detailed advice to the pastors he had established, Timothy and Titus, he never once mentioned any instructions for or exhortations to, water baptize? If it’s as important as churches make it, especially the Roman Catholic Church, you’d think he’d make some reference to its importance before he died. Instead, what we do find is an emphasis on the supernatural, spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3 for example) we have in Christ; not physical signs and manifestations. By the end of the Book of Acts period, even Paul, who had formerly healed whole communities by sending them his handkerchief (Acts 19:12), had to resort to advising Timothy to ‘take a little wine,’ for his stomach problems. (Tim. 5:23), and reportedly left ‘Trophimus’ at Miletum ‘sick.’ The earthly, physical signs associated with Israel’s program were withdrawn, as we are now to walk by faith not by sight.

We receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion to the Gospel Paul preached. Just look at children who have been water-baptized as infants…do they act like they have the Holy Spirit? Only a person who has knowingly and willingly placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His death for our sins receives the gift of the Holy Spirit as their seal.

The Scriptures explain themselves when you see the Divinely-inspired boundaries God has placed in His Word to let us know which part of His Message is specifically to and for us today. Jesus Christ came to earth to fulfill the remaining events in Israel’s prophetic timetable that had been foretold by the mouths of all His holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21, Luke 1:70; Matt. 25:34). The unprophesied message He returned in the air to give to Paul for us was hid in God and kept secret since BEFORE the world began. (Eph. 3:4-5, 8-9; Col 1:25-26; Romans 16:25) At the time of Paul’s conversion, God started something new, interrupting Israel’s program until ours is completed. Then, God will resume His dealings with the Nation of Israel right where He left off. (We’re His Body; they’re His Bride!)

The Bible isn’t hard to understand…it’s hard to believe, especially when self-proclaimed ‘learned’ men spiritualize away the plain meaning of the text!

 

[iwonder]

dfkuz:

In regard to the objections of rjs 1, I would remind that I did reference my remark about Paul ‘denigrating’ water baptism with 1 Corinthians Chapter 1. The actual verses I was referring to are v.14-18: “I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius, lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect.”

Don’t you find it odd that if Paul was laboring under the so-called ‘great commission,’ given by Christ to His disciples before His ascension, in which baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation (Mark 16:16) and that everyone should do it (Matt. 28:19), that he could even make such a remark? The 12 were certainly sent to baptize, but Paul says for some reason, he wasn’t! My contention is that this is because Paul was given a new gospel in which only belief in Jesus Christ and His death for our sins is required! Paul’s epistles are filled with this idea, and later in 1 Cor. 1:21, he says, 'For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Now, if you make the mistake of going to Scriptures that are written to, for, and about Israel in their prophetic program with God, then you pervert the Gospel of pure Grace that Paul was given to preach. Water baptism did play a part in their program, but it now plays no part in ours. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism.’ Paul makes it clear throughout his epistles that when we believe, we are supernaturally baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13)…so, if there’s only one baptism, this is it. You can’t add another one (water) without contradicting Paul’s clear inspired statement here in Eph. 4:5.

Don’t you also find it odd that in the epistles that Paul did write after the Book of Acts period, which definitely include his prison epistles and pastoral epistles, that even with all of his detailed advice to the pastors he had established, Timothy and Titus, he never once mentioned any instructions for or exhortations to, water baptize? If it’s as important as churches make it, especially the Roman Catholic Church, you’d think he’d make some reference to its importance before he died. Instead, what we do find is an emphasis on the supernatural, spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3 for example) we have in Christ; not physical signs and manifestations. By the end of the Book of Acts period, even Paul, who had formerly healed whole communities by sending them his handkerchief (Acts 19:12), had to resort to advising Timothy to ‘take a little wine,’ for his stomach problems. (Tim. 5:23), and reportedly left ‘Trophimus’ at Miletum ‘sick.’ The earthly, physical signs associated with Israel’s program were withdrawn, as we are now to walk by faith not by sight.

We receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion to the Gospel Paul preached. Just look at children who have been water-baptized as infants…do they act like they have the Holy Spirit? Only a person who has knowingly and willingly placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His death for our sins receives the gift of the Holy Spirit as their seal.

The Scriptures explain themselves when you see the Divinely-inspired boundaries God has placed in His Word to let us know which part of His Message is specifically to and for us today. Jesus Christ came to earth to fulfill the remaining events in Israel’s prophetic timetable that had been foretold by the mouths of all His holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21, Luke 1:70; Matt. 25:34). The unprophesied message He returned in the air to give to Paul for us was hid in God and kept secret since BEFORE the world began. (Eph. 3:4-5, 8-9; Col 1:25-26; Romans 16:25) At the time of Paul’s conversion, God started something new, interrupting Israel’s program until ours is completed. Then, God will resume His dealings with the Nation of Israel right where He left off. (We’re His Body; they’re His Bride!)

The Bible isn’t hard to understand…it’s hard to believe, especially when self-proclaimed ‘learned’ men spiritualize away the plain meaning of the text!

The desire to read and learn in the Bible is a gift of the Holy Spirit. One has to be careful about condemning those who either read it literally or not. To be able to even pick up a Bible and read it with interest and love is a sign of the working of the Holy Spirit. Personally I am not Sola Scriptura. But I will not condemn anyone for reading a Bible.
The Lord said “Go and baptise.” Having said that, why would anyone who was sola scriptura condemn anyone for infant water baptisms? How silly. For the desire to do what the Lord says is a gift of the Holy Spirit. One should not be constantly trying to condemn the work of the Holy Spirit because it dies not live up to one’s standards. Look first for the Holy Spirit- then judge the action.

 

[rjs1]

dfkuz:

In regard to the objections of rjs 1, I would remind that I did reference my remark about Paul ‘denigrating’ water baptism with 1 Corinthians Chapter 1. The actual verses I was referring to are v.14-18: “I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius, lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect.”

!

Paul’s statement that he was glad that he had not baptised many of the Corinthians was simply because baptism was so important that some of the Corinthians were starting to form cliques around those who had baptised them and Paul wanted to remain outside of such groupings.
However, rather than attempt to reply to every reference you have given I would simply ask you again why you are ignoring the specific command of Our Lord Himself to go and baptise all nations? Your group seems so determined to “spiritualise” God’s dealings with man that even Our Lord’s own command is ignored. Jesus said, whether the Bereans accept it or not, that “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Water baptism was the accepted form of entry into the Christian Church, without exception, for one thousand five hundred years, from the time of the Apostles onwards, until some Reformers decided to replace God’s word with their own.
I can only repeat that time after time in the New Testament, as an individual or family or group decide to accept Christ as their Lord and become Christians, they are then immediately baptised.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

They are all pretty bad, but…
The one that I think is worst is the Iconoclasm and other forms of vandalism that happened. The reason is because in all the other cases you still have the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church, where as with the vandalism the stuff was LOST FOREVER!!!
Who can imagine what was burned and trashed? Sacred writings, relics that came directly from the Apostles, early Christian pictures and statues, fragments of the Cross, graves of important people, etc. GONE!!! The list goes on and on. Imagine for years a sacred object that was used in Masses for ages (maybe since apostolic times) was suddenly lost forever because some uneducated peasant was told to torch a cathedral or shrine?

 

[dfkuz]

This is in reply to both posts objecting to my stand on water baptism. (rjs 1 and iwonder). I’m sorry, maybe I’ve been so wordy that you’ve missed my point entirely!

Jesus’ commands to water-baptize given during His earthly ministry and obeyed in early Acts DO NOT apply to this Dispensation of Grace in which we now live.

The practice of water baptism continued throughout most of the Book of Acts period during the transition from the Kingdom program to the Grace program, but Paul is clear in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was not sent to baptize. Then he never speaks of it again in the remainder of his epistles. He does speak of the Spirit’s Work of baptizing us into the Body of Christ, but no water is involved.

Paul warned that after his departure grievous wolves would enter in among his churches, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Even while Paul was still alive, those who would mix the legalistic Kingdom Gospel with the Gospel of Grace led the Galatians astray. And this is exactly what happened in the years following Paul’s death. The Kingdom Gospel with all of its laws and works was favored over the gospel that God wanted preached…salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. The Words of Christ on earth superceded His Words to Paul, but which ones were more recent? Satan succeeded in perverting the Gospel of Christ with the set-aside doctrines of an earlier program. Of course, there have been true believers during the past 2,000 years, but the vast majority of sincere seekers were led astray by a huge, man-made system of religious performance mixed with pagan practices that had the gloss of ‘Christianity’ about it. The majority is not always right…and in this case, it’s dead wrong.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

dfkuz-

Jesus’ commands to water-baptize given during His earthly ministry and obeyed in early Acts DO NOT apply to this Dispensation of Grace in which we now live.

If your saying we dont need to be Baptized up to today your way off.

The practice of water baptism continued throughout most of the Book of Acts period during the transition from the Kingdom program to the Grace program, but Paul is clear in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was not sent to baptize. Then he never speaks of it again in the remainder of his epistles. He does speak of the Spirit’s Work of baptizing us into the Body of Christ, but no water is involved.

First of all St Paul did Baptize people, it was what anyone who wanted to be a Christian had to do asap. Second of all anyone he was writing a letter to was an already established local church, they were all already Baptized or had local authorized leaders to perform the Baptism. Water is always involved, just read the Gospels (ie the very words of Jesus). Baptism was so important that if the people St Paul was writing to werent Baptized then he had a bigger problem on his hands.

Paul warned that after his departure grievous wolves would enter in among his churches, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Even while Paul was still alive, those who would mix the legalistic Kingdom Gospel with the Gospel of Grace led the Galatians astray. And this is exactly what happened in the years following Paul’s death. The Kingdom Gospel with all of its laws and works was favored over the gospel that God wanted preached…salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. The Words of Christ on earth superceded His Words to Paul, but which ones were more recent? Satan succeeded in perverting the Gospel of Christ with the set-aside doctrines of an earlier program. Of course, there have been true believers during the past 2,000 years, but the vast majority of sincere seekers were led astray by a huge, man-made system of religious performance mixed with pagan practices that had the gloss of ‘Christianity’ about it. The majority is not always right…and in this case, it’s dead wrong.

Yes wolves did come in thats why bishops were appointed in each town, some were ordained by direct command of St Paul. Second of all you ask which was more recent? Thats totally irrelevant, Jesus and Paul were NEVER at odds with their teachings, St Paul was a servant of God and nothing he says “supercedes”.
I have some quick questions if you dont mind:
How do we know what books belong in the Bible?
What happens when two people disagree on what a passage says? Who is right?

 

[timothy2]

Giovanni:

I have to say, that the biggest error of the Protestant Reformers is that thy believe “they” have the truth, and catholics are somewhat mislead. Well, they are living in the shadow of a lie, all 20,000 Christian denominations, for the devil by his name and nature has succeeded in dividing the church, and up to this day, they are blind to the full truth of God’s Church on earth.
In the meantime, let us pray for our brothers and sisters, that one day we will all be one as God inteded it to be.

There are a lot of “denominations”, and there is much error taught and practiced in many of them. But, to be fair… If you read the Bible and compare clear Biblical teaching with the practice and teachings of most “protestant” denominations and the RCC… You will find that most protestand denominations are closer to the Biblical model.

The RCC claim that they are the “only ones” can not be supported Biblically. As a matter of fact, there are a tremendous amount of teaching and practices that are in opposition to what the Bible teaches.

Preston

 

[Nan_S]

dfkuz:

Jesus’ commands to water-baptize given during His earthly ministry and obeyed in early Acts DO NOT apply to this Dispensation of Grace in which we now live.
The practice of water baptism continued throughout most of the Book of Acts period during the transition from the Kingdom program to the Grace program, but Paul is clear in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was not sent to baptize. Then he never speaks of it again in the remainder of his epistles. He does speak of the Spirit’s Work of baptizing us into the Body of Christ, but no water is involved.
Thank you for your kind consideration.

In the spirit of kind consideration, I must disagree with your assertion that Paul (and by implication everyone else) never again speaks of water baptism after writing First Corinthians. I offer the following, with dates from the timeline in my NIV Study Bible:

First Corinthians was written in AD55.

Romans was written in AD57, and speaks of baptism; most scripture scholars recognize this as a reference to water baptism. Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

In AD59, Paul was arrested in Jerusalem and before being sent to Rome. He speaks of water baptism to the Roman commander and the crowds. Acts 22:16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.

Colossians was written in AD60 and compares water baptism to circumcision. Col 2:11-12 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Ephesians was written in AD60 and speaks of the seven “unities” of the Church; one is spirit, another is baptism. Eph 4:4-6 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Paul to Titus was written between AD63 and AD65, and speaks of both water and spirit baptism. Tit 3:4-5 But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit.

First Peter was written after AD60, and definitely speaks of water baptism. 1 Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews was written before AD70, although how much earlier is uncertain. Hebrews explicitly speaks of water baptism. Heb 10:21-22 And since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.

I also submit Jesus explicit instruction in Matthew 28, which neither Paul nor anyone else had the authority to override. Mt 28:19 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit”

Finally, we have the testimony of the Early Church (before the “great apostacy”) where Hippolytus (AD215), Origen (AD244), and The Council of Carthage (AD252) all give explicit and detailed instructions on water baptism.

Given this evidence, I must disagree with your assertion that Jesus’ commands to water-baptize do not apply to this Dispensation of Grace in which we now live. Peace to you.

 

[rjs1]

dfkuz:

This is in reply to both posts objecting to my stand on water baptism. (rjs 1 and iwonder). I’m sorry, maybe I’ve been so wordy that you’ve missed my point entirely!

Jesus’ commands to water-baptize given during His earthly ministry and obeyed in early Acts DO NOT apply to this Dispensation of Grace in which we now live.

The practice of water baptism continued throughout most of the Book of Acts period during the transition from the Kingdom program to the Grace program, but Paul is clear in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was not sent to baptize. Then he never speaks of it again in the remainder of his epistles. He does speak of the Spirit’s Work of baptizing us into the Body of Christ, but no water is involved.

Paul warned that after his departure grievous wolves would enter in among his churches, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Even while Paul was still alive, those who would mix the legalistic Kingdom Gospel with the Gospel of Grace led the Galatians astray. And this is exactly what happened in the years following Paul’s death. The Kingdom Gospel with all of its laws and works was favored over the gospel that God wanted preached…salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. The Words of Christ on earth superceded His Words to Paul, but which ones were more recent? Satan succeeded in perverting the Gospel of Christ with the set-aside doctrines of an earlier program. Of course, there have been true believers during the past 2,000 years, but the vast majority of sincere seekers were led astray by a huge, man-made system of religious performance mixed with pagan practices that had the gloss of ‘Christianity’ about it. The majority is not always right…and in this case, it’s dead wrong.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

You are choosing to disobey Jesus. There is no other way of looking at what you have said. You cannot deny that He ordered water baptism, so you now attempt to say, with no scriptural justification whatsoever, that He only meant it for a short time.
You also again totally ignore Our Lord’s words that unless a person is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
I am sorry to say that you are perfectly illustrating the number one error of Protestantism. You have made yourself, your group, the interpreters of the Divine word and have created your own theology and tried to twist the Bible to fit it.
This idea about a transition from a kingdom program to a grace program is utterly unscriptural and in fact contradicts the continuity of God’s revelation in Scripture. Please stop taking man made ideas and trying to make the Bible fit into them.

 

[dfkuz]

rjs1:

You are choosing to disobey Jesus. There is no other way of looking at what you have said. You cannot deny that He ordered water baptism, so you now attempt to say, with no scriptural justification whatsoever, that He only meant it for a short time.
You also again totally ignore Our Lord’s words that unless a person is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
I am sorry to say that you are perfectly illustrating the number one error of Protestantism. You have made yourself, your group, the interpreters of the Divine word and have created your own theology and tried to twist the Bible to fit it.
This idea about a transition from a kingdom program to a grace program is utterly unscriptural and in fact contradicts the continuity of God’s revelation in Scripture. Please stop taking man made ideas and trying to make the Bible fit into them.

If you’re having difficulty with the idea that something Jesus said in His earthly ministry only lasted for a short time, why aren’t all believers who call themselves real Christians selling all that they own and giving alms? Why aren’t they all living in common as one, pooling their resources? After all, Ananias and Sapphira were KILLED by the Holy Spirit for not doing that whole-heartedly! (Acts 5) Jesus surely meant it when he instructed the ‘rich young ruler’ that in addition to keeping the commandments of the Law, he must sell all that he had and give alms.’ (Matt. 19:21; Luke 18:22; Mark 10:21. He also told His followers to do this in Luke 12:33. If we are not to take any thought for the morrow, should we even have a pension plan?

Also, Jesus promised quite plainly in Mark 16:17 & 18, that ‘these signs shall follow them that believe; in My Name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.’ Do you believe? Can you do these things? Have you tried any of them lately? These aren’t ‘maybes,’ or just for special saints or priests – they’re for them that believe. Let me know when you plan to handle snakes and drink poison – I’d like to be there for that! Also, I have a few medical conditions I’d like you to take care of!

Isn’t it time we stop picking and choosing what appeals to us in the Bible and concentrate on finding exactly what God has for US? Water baptism in the Acts period was associated with the display of miraculous sign gifts (the Jews require a sign) such as spontaneous speaking in tongues. Have you heard anyone, especially an infant, do this lately upon being sprinkled or dunked?

Paul said, ‘be ye followers of me,’ (1 Cor. 4:16, 11:1; Php. 3:17) and that in him ‘first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should believe on Him to life everlasting.’ (1 Tim. 1:16) Paul is telling us that he was the first member of the Body of Christ because he was the first to be saved purely by God’s Grace. If he wasn’t sent to water baptize (1 Cor. 1:17), then neither are any of us!

 

[dfkuz]

Nan S:

In the spirit of kind consideration, I must disagree with your assertion that Paul (and by implication everyone else) never again speaks of water baptism after writing First Corinthians. I offer the following, with dates from the timeline in my NIV Study Bible…

Given this evidence, I must disagree with your assertion that Jesus’ commands to water-baptize do not apply to this Dispensation of Grace in which we now live. Peace to you.

And Peace to you!

I’m afraid the burden of proof is on you to prove that the baptisms mentioned by Paul in Romans, Colossians, Ephesians, and Titus were water baptisms! Even Christ spoke of baptisms that had nothing to do with water! (Matt. 20:22, 23: Luke 12:50) John the Baptist proclaimed that the Christ would ‘baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.’

Paul, in 1 Cor. 12:13, says that ‘by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body;’ this is something the Holy Spirit does, not some cleric with a handful of water. It’s a supernatural action, just like all the rest of the unities mentioned in Ephesians 4 are supernatural and spiritual. In Ephesians 1:13, Paul gives these steps to eternal life: ‘In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.’ I don’t see water baptism in that progression, do you? We believe, and the Holy Spirit seals us. ‘Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith?’ (Gal. 3:2) Do you see water baptism in between there? ‘Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?’ (Gal. 3:3) And even after we believe, Paul can’t believe we’d go through a fleshly ceremony that involves washing our flesh! ‘how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements?’ (Gal. 4:9) Water baptism was a part of the Law; but now our salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with the Law. (Ex. 29:4; Romans 3:28)

Yes, Paul himself was baptized and told the story in Acts 22:16, but he was saved while Israels’ Kingdom Program was still going on and hadn’t yet received the full revelation of the Mystery. By the time he went to prison and wrote the pastoral epistles, he had received the height of Grace doctrine for us, the Body of Christ. Acts is a book telling the story of the fall of Israel, and the subsequent birth of the Church, so yes, it was a transition period.
Eph. 5:26 speaks of the sanctifying and cleansing of the church by the ‘washing of water by the word.’ It is the Word that now works effectually in us to sanctify us daily. In Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration and renewing is of the Holy Ghost, a supernatural operation, not a man-made one. Compare Titus 3:5, ‘not by works of righteousness that we have done…’ to Acts 10:33 & 34: ‘of a truth, I [Peter] perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him.’ If you’re looking for a difference between the Kingdom Program (Peter), and the Mystery Grace Program (Paul), here’s a perfect example. And all this was AFTER the cross!

Baptism doesn’t always mean ‘water.’ Paul, in 1 Cor. 10:1-2, says, ‘all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.’ Now, I ask you, in the parting of the Red Sea, just who got wet? Certainly not the Israelites! It was the Egyptians! Baptism actually means ‘to be completely immersed in and identified with,’ and the medium does not have to be water.

I’ll stick with the Scriptures themselves; the ‘church fathers’ were mere, uninspired men who often made things up as they went along…heavily influenced by the pagan cultures around them.

Water baptism did save in Israel’s Program (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; Hebrews 10:21-22); it wasn’t just a ‘testimony.’ And when our Mystery Program is done, water baptism will still save when God again deals with His Chosen People.

Let us walk by faith, not by sight, not serving our fleshly senses with empty ritual and worship God in Spirit and in the Truth He has given us through Paul.

Maranatha!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

dfkuz-

If you’re having difficulty with the idea that something Jesus said in His earthly ministry only lasted for a short time, why aren’t all believers who call themselves real Christians selling all that they own and giving alms? …

Thats totally misunderstanding the situation. First of all alms giving is done EVERY day in Catholic churches all over the world. They are pooling their resources, thats why there are so many Catholic hospitals, schools, orphanages, disaster funds, etc. The Church is ALIVE and well.

After all, Ananias and Sapphira were KILLED by the Holy Spirit for not doing that whole-heartedly! (Acts 5)

Here is another unfounded statement, here is what it says:3 But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? … You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died.They were stealing from the Church, not acting non “whole heartedly”, they LIED TO GOD WITHOUT SHAME and were punished.

Jesus surely meant it when he instructed the ‘rich young ruler’ that in addition to keeping the commandments of the Law, he must sell all that he had and give alms.’ (Matt. 19:21; Luke 18:22; Mark 10:21. He also told His followers to do this in Luke 12:33. If we are not to take any thought for the morrow, should we even have a pension plan?

There are many Catholic groups who live very simple lives and takes vows of poverty. That doesnt mean to sell everything you have and starve to death, it means live a simple life. There were very special times when Jesus called the Apostles to leave everything, but that only works in that situation. People are called to have families and support them. If they have insurance and some savings in the bank that doesnt mean they are breaking any commands. That rich kid was not raising a family, the point of that story was that he wouldnt even give up his money if Jesus told it to his face which proved he loved money more than God. Im not even going to look up those passages seeing your interpretation track record. Alms giving is good and still happens today.

Also, Jesus promised quite plainly in Mark 16:17 & 18, that ‘these signs shall follow them that believe; in My Name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.’
…

Did you forget one of my favorite passages when you cited Mark 16?? 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved…
You skipped over the primary REQUIREMENT to even see those signs, and that is GET BAPTIZED.
About those signs, Im sure they have happened, but that is hardly an exhaustive list! ANY miracle that happens at the hands of a Christian is because they believed. That citation of Mark16 was way out of line and misleading, especially when you avoided verse 16.

Isn’t it time we stop picking and choosing what appeals to us in the Bible and concentrate on finding exactly what God has for US? Water baptism in the Acts period was associated with the display of miraculous sign gifts (the Jews require a sign) such as spontaneous speaking in tongues. Have you heard anyone, especially an infant, do this lately upon being sprinkled or dunked?

Your ignorant of the simple truth of the Gospel. We have been trying to talk to you but your on auto pilot and refuse to use Scriptural support for your bogus assertion, infact you are grossly misinterpreting passages like nobody I have ever come across. It is you who refuses to read the Bible in context and read Christian History, especially the Early Church Fathers.
Anyone who wanted to be called a Christian HAD to be Baptized as soon as possible, and every Christian in the NT WAS.

…Paul is telling us that he was the first member of the Body of Christ because he was the first to be saved purely by God’s Grace. If he wasn’t sent to water baptize (1 Cor. 1:17), then neither are any of us!

Your so out of line I dont know where to start. I will say this for the final time St Paul did Baptize people and was Baptized himself. He said that other stuff because he was more concerned with what came after Baptism and describing how the Gospel message worked at the theological level. He was not the first member, there are many cases of others who came before him. And one more thing, St Paul openly said he would refrain from marital relations so he could devote himself totally to the work of Christ…Are you following St Paul’s example of refraining from sex?

 

[dfkuz]

Catholic Dude:

dfkuz-

Thats totally misunderstanding the situation. First of all alms giving is done EVERY day in Catholic churches all over the world. They are pooling their resources, thats why there are so many Catholic hospitals, schools, orphanages, disaster funds, etc. The Church is ALIVE and well.

Sounds like someone’s not taking Jesus’ Words literally! Actually, Jesus knew that the next thing on Israel’s prophetic calendar was the Tribulation, and not taking the Mark of the Beast would necessitate the believers to rely on God for their daily sustenance (like in the Lord’s Prayer). But, as we now know, the Kingdom Program was interrupted in order for God to bring in this Dispensation of Grace.

Here is another unfounded statement, here is what it says:3 But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? … You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died.They were stealing from the Church, not acting non “whole heartedly”, they LIED TO GOD WITHOUT SHAME and were punished.

Have you seen this happen lately to anyone? Here is an example of Jews breaking their Covenant Law (albeit ‘New Covenant Law’) and being ‘cut off’ from the Covenant People. This method is much more effective than taking people out to the edge of the city and stoning them! But it did not and still does not have ANYTHING to do with our Grace program in Christ, ‘in Whom we have redemption through His Blood [not water], the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His Grace.’ Eph. 1:7 We’re already forgiven for everything we’ll ever do, so even if we commit a sin more heinous than A and S, it’s already covered!

There are many Catholic groups who live very simple lives and takes vows of poverty. That doesnt mean to sell everything you have and starve to death, it means live a simple life. There were very special times when Jesus called the Apostles to leave everything, but that only works in that situation. People are called to have families and support them. If they have insurance and some savings in the bank that doesnt mean they are breaking any commands. That rich kid was not raising a family, the point of that story was that he wouldnt even give up his money if Jesus told it to his face which proved he loved money more than God. Im not even going to look up those passages seeing your interpretation track record. Alms giving is good and still happens today.

Now who’s guilty of ‘spiritualizing’ the Scriptures? Jesus didn’t just say that to the rich young ruler, but to ALL of His followers! (Luke 12:33) That means you, if you insist on living in somebody’s else’s dispensation! Under this one, given to Paul for us, yes, we are to provide for our own and give as we are prospered. Aren’t you grateful for that? Saying that the poor guy just wasn’t willing is a poor excuse for people who don’t want to follow what Jesus said themselves!

Did you forget one of my favorite passages…

I’ve been water-baptized (twice) and I have never been able to do any of the things Jesus said WOULD FOLLOW them that believed. Saying that what He said is true for today and then not displaying these signs is making Him a LIAR!

Your ignorant of the simple truth of the Gospel. We have been trying to talk to you but your on auto pilot and refuse to use Scriptural support for your bogus assertion, infact you are grossly misinterpreting passages like nobody I have ever come across. It is you who refuses to read the Bible in context and read Christian History, especially the Early Church Fathers.
Anyone who wanted to be called a Christian HAD to be Baptized as soon as possible, and every Christian in the NT WAS.

Your so out of line I dont know where to start. I will say this for the final time St Paul did Baptize people and was Baptized himself. He said that other stuff because he was more concerned with what came after Baptism and describing how the Gospel message worked at the theological level. He was not the first member, there are many cases of others who came before him.

There is absolutely no mention of anyone personally being water-baptized after the close of the Book of Acts period, so I stand on just as firm a ground as you do. Now that we’re saved by faith alone in Christ alone, there’s no room for a water ceremony that was part of the Law. All of Paul’s epistles make that abundantly clear!

It’s time for you to read the Scriptures w/o the myopic glasses that have served the monolithic monster of the RCC and all of her daughter churches so well in deceiving people spiritually and bilking them financially! I love Catholics, don’t get me wrong…but I believe that the Catholic Church is God’s biggest enemy on earth!

My prayers for you will be constant.