My comments on Europe were an aside, and not central to the discussion, and yet they’ve been contended. Still ever so little attention to the catechism and hardly any discussion of the men’s perspective (of which there was plenty offered.)
LitCrit,you’ve posted several threads on modesty issues. You seem especially agitated by this topic. With this post, I don’t wish to provoke bad feelings. I’m interested in clarification.
You posted some interesting stats. The US
is a violent society. There’s no arguing that. Too many mothers on these boards would never dream of letting their kids outside unattended. But violence isn’t the issue you opened with. We are also divorce fanatics. While there is a connection between sexual morality and divorce, that’s also not at central issue.
Modesty was your topic-- more specifically,
immodesty.
Not a mention was made to posted pics of the volleyball team describing ***just how ***were those suits modest. Using an already posted photo, I asked specifically about it, though nobody engaged the question-- only contentions-- i.e., “
I thought it was modest.” Then please describe-- what makes it modest? If half her behind is modestly visible, how much more would make it immodest?
Still, aside from the central issue and in response to my complaint that European ‘progressiveness’ is hardly a model of virtue, you posted some interesting statistics on European sexual morality. Those statistics were intended to defend against criticisms of Europe’s moral reputation
The statistics, likewise made you feel better that Europe wasn’t, in fact, the moral sewage of the world. I didn’t use the phrase ‘moral sewage’ and it seemed fairly dramatic for you to defend Europe from the charge when the charge wasn’t leveled. Are you contending, LitCrit, that Europe is not in an accelerated moral decline? We American Catholics know the US is.
However, it’s no secret that European abortion rates
are down and European teen pregnancy rates
are down. but Europe’s overall conception rate has tanked. That italy is paying women to birth is hardly a progressive social move-- it’s an act of desperate survival.
These next ideas were lifted from a site called Advocates For
Youth.org. Presumeably, these tenets are touted as the reason for the low pregnany/ abortion/ birth rates for European teens: What do you make of these ideas:
The fact page contends that the ‘sexual health’ of the European teen is better- much better– than the teen in the US. Here are some of the reasons sited:
In Netherlands, France, and Germany …
*Governments strongly support education and economic self-sufficiency for youth.
*Political and religious interest groups have little influence on public health policy. ….
*unimpeded access to contraception, including condoms, consistent sexuality education, and widespread public education campaigns….
*Youth have convenient access to free or low-cost contraception through national health insurance….
*Sexuality education is not necessarily a separate curriculum and may be integrated across school subjects and at all grade levels.
*Families have open, honest, consistent discussions with teens about sexuality and support the role of educators and health care providers in making sexual health information and services available for teens….
*Adults see intimate sexual relationships as normal and natural for older adolescents, a positive component of emotionally healthy maturation.
*At the same time, young people believe it is "stupid and irresponsible " to have sex without protection and use the maxim, “safer sex or no sex.”…
*The morality of sexual behavior is weighed through an individual ethic that includes the values of responsibility, respect, tolerance, and equity.
in posting these tenets from Advocates for Youth, here is my single and only point: in the context of culture-wide post-Christian decline, Europeans with no misgivings about the modesty of bikini-wearing
make no case for the modesty of bikinis.
In other words, the general European sensibility is not a credible witness to modesty and has little accuracy defining the parameters of it. Don’t feel bad, LitCrit. the general American sensibility fails just as badly. But the
Catholic sensibility should be informed, discerning, and interested in protecting the mystery of the person.
Finally, I think a general apology should be extended to the fellows on this thread. These guys expressed sincere difficulty and restraint, all the while asking their trials to attain chastity and modesty be considered with charity. And not a single female poster retracted any part of her assertion that “his lust was his problem.”
Fellows, I have a husband and five sons (four of those sons are adults) and I know that while disciplining lust is ultimately an inside job-- the man’s responsibility with God’s help-- I know that we women can be irresponsible with our beauty. Please accept my apologies.
)–I think the entire group of athletes are in supreme condition–but if a female competitor was wearing a bathing suit that showed a lot of cleavage…comparable to Phelps dropping his suit a bit too low–we would have varying opinions on here. It seems like there is a double standard when it comes to women baring a lot of skin on tv as opposed to men. Just my 2 cents.
