Bikinis are immodest - why exactly?

[Litcrit]

I have seen women wearing bikinis since I was a kid; yes, I had lustful thoughts (along the lines of, she is lovely! or, what a great body!). Then, after maybe a few seconds, I go back to doing what I was doing before, having a swim, reading a book, whatever. Not much of a big deal.

That was my point all along.

Boys used to mom, grannies, aunts, sisters and friends in bikinis don’t see it as a big deal.

Sort of as a boy from the Middle East would see a woman whose face and hair showed. ‘She is lovely’, but not a big deal.

 

[monicatholic]

yes, I had lustful thoughts… Not much of a big deal.

a poster had made a case for anesthisized consciences, or desensitization to the occasion of sin. (it’s a long thread, i can’t find it. can anyone?) might this quote demonstrate what was meant?

these past 30 years, we Catholics may have done a one-eighty on the sexual occasion of sin topic. Used to be “Forgive me, Father, I had impure thoughts…” was the default confession when nothing else could be remembered. I wonder if ‘impure thoughts’ have become so banal, they go unrecognized as such. worse still, it’s possible that folks have become so saturated, so sex-fatigued that only graphic demonstrations of sexuality cause arrousal.

LitCrit, it seems you have, every time, agreed with ***subjective ***experience that promotes your perspective and likewise consistently seem to have failed to consider ***objective ***reasoning (as expressed through Scripture and Catechism) especially as it opposes your practice.

Is it possible you’re approaching this issue with myopia, looking only at/ for answers that confirm your view? Is it possible your priest was wrong?

Is it possible, LitCrit, that your intense interest in the subject is evidence of God calling you to reject the parameters of modesty defined by western culture and instead follow Him to a more beautiful truth?

 

[savienu]

a poster had made a case for anesthisized consciences, or desensitization to the occasion of sin. (it’s a long thread, i can’t find it. can anyone?) might this quote demonstrate what was meant?

these past 30 years, we Catholics may have done a one-eighty on the sexual occasion of sin topic. Used to be “Forgive me, Father, I had impure thoughts…” was the default confession when nothing else could be remembered. I wonder if ‘impure thoughts’ have become so banal, they go unrecognized as such. worse still, it’s possible that folks have become so saturated, so sex-fatigued that only graphic demonstrations of sexuality cause arrousal.

LitCrit, it seems you have, every time, agreed with ***subjective ***experience that promotes your perspective and likewise consistently seem to have failed to consider ***objective ***reasoning (as expressed through Scripture and Catechism) especially as it opposes your practice.

Is it possible you’re approaching this issue with myopia, looking only at/ for answers that confirm your view? Is it possible your priest was wrong?

Is it possible, LitCrit, that your intense interest in the subject is evidence of God calling you to reject the parameters of modesty defined by western culture and instead follow Him to a more beautiful truth?

I still would like to know why your standards of modesty are ones that everyone should follow? I don’t think bikinis are modest, (although I don’t consider the suits that the volleyball playing women were wearing to be that bad…) and I understand that most women IN THIS CULTURE wear them to entice. I also think we are desensitized and living in a sex saturated culture. THAT BEING SAID, dIfferent cultures have different standards. What about the tribes in Africa where women are topless? Are they being immodest? LitCrit has shown herself to be a faithful Catholic. Why can’t we leave her decisions about modesty between her and God?

There is a difference between purity and puritanism. These posts seem to be more about puritanism.

 

[monicatholic]

Savienu, you insist my overall view of modesty is simply ***my ***view. unless you can recognise how your appeals to relativism have colored your arguments, you won’t see how my view of modesty has been formed by the Church and is appropriate for post-Christian Western civilization-- of which LitCrit is a part.

Why can’t we leave her decisions about modesty between her and God?

savienu, LitCrit asked.

on several threads and likewise to her confessor at great length, (per her description to board readers) she asked.

would it be so galling to you to learn a poster, any single poster, changed her mind about her responsibility to her weaker brethern? would you be terribly disgusted to learn of a single woman who has redefined her views on modesty? would you charge her with puritanism?

in fact, without definitions of all the terms, your charge of puritanism was along the lines of general insult.

What about the tribes in Africa where women are topless? Are they being immodest?

this is a great question. persons in pre-evangelized cultures are free to abide by their cultural standards (so long as those cultural standards are not opposed to natural law), until they profess to new standards of Christian morality.

after baptism and contimuing catechesis, many previously ‘exposed’ cultures are very willing to adopt Christian standards, including modesty standards. (presumeably this is a result of the Charismatic fruit, modesty.)

(of course, this is the good outcome when sin hasn’t marred the efforts or spoiled the evangelists motives. we could spend a long time arguing the differences between Christian inculturation, indoctrination and imposition. let’s not.)

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I have a question, related to all of this. I know this was talked about somewhere in this thread, but I was under the impression that in Europe things in the modesty/purity arena were sort of a step ahead of the US in degradation, and I don’t mean this as any form of insult or anything, I am just wondering as it was just anectdotal from people, both European and from the Americas, that I have spoken with. For example, we had a German friend visiting and were in a turist location. A group of German tourists were there (not anyone our friend knew) and they were changing clothes in the parking lot by their car, out in the open. Our German friend commented something to the effects that it wouldn’t be so shocking in Germany since people there were less careful with modesty. We lived in Germany when I was little and my mom also remembers taking us to the beach and having a woman sitting next to us take off her bathing suit and put on regular clothes right there at the beach on her towel. I have heard similar anecdotes from other European countries. Aside from traveling when I was little, I have only been to Italy a couple of times and Germany, for a week at a time, so I have not been totally immersed in the European culture. When I have spoken with people that have lived there and a subject related to modesty or purity comes up, I have always left with the impression that the culture was more desensitized there… Is this incorrect?

 

[savienu]

Savienu, you insist my overall view of modesty is simply ***my ***view. unless you can recognise how your appeals to relativism have colored your arguments, you won’t see how my view of modesty has been formed by the Church and is appropriate for post-Christian Western civilization-- of which LitCrit is a part.

savienu, LitCrit asked.

on several threads and likewise to her confessor at great length, (per her description to board readers) she asked.

would it be so galling to you to learn a poster, any single poster, changed her mind about her responsibility to her weaker brethern? would you be terribly disgusted to learn of a single woman who has redefined her views on modesty? would you charge her with puritanism?

in fact, without definitions of all the terms, your charge of puritanism was along the lines of general insult.

this is a great question. persons in pre-evangelized cultures are free to abide by their cultural standards (so long as those cultural standards are not opposed to natural law), until they profess to new standards of Christian morality.

after baptism and contimuing catechesis, many previously ‘exposed’ cultures are very willing to adopt Christian standards, including modesty standards. (presumeably this is a result of the Charismatic fruit, modesty.)

(of course, this is the good outcome when sin hasn’t marred the efforts or spoiled the evangelists motives. we could spend a long time arguing the differences between Christian inculturation, indoctrination and imposition. let’s not.)

I understand your standards of modesty have been formed by the Catechism. I have even said so. What I challenge is the belief that LitCrit’s standards of modesty are not. You can not make that call just because she disagrees with you. The catechism does not list WHAT the clothing is that one must wear in order to be modest. And it doesn’t do that for a REASON.

 

[monicatholic]

I have always left with the impression that the culture was more desensitized there… Is this incorrect?

LifeIsBeautiful,

Both the US and European societies are in a state of post-Christian moral decay. EU beats the US in some areas, the US regains the lead in yet others.

the last two Popes have have warned both EU and US to return to Christ. A return is not evident.

 

[Fran65]

You know, this really is going nowhere and as shown by one or two earlier responses is actually becoming destructive.

You are all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I’d like to apologise if I’ve upset anyone. That’s not my intention. I enjoy discussing things, its one way I learn.

Pax

Karen

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

LifeIsBeautiful,

Both the US and European societies are in a state of post-Christian moral decay. EU beats the US in some areas, the US regains the lead in yet others.

the last two Popes have have warned both EU and US to return to Christ. A return is not evident.

Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned it more clearly that I only meant in those areas, since the US is worse in others… The only reason I was mentioning it is that maybe this is why the “cultural standards” being brought up are different, though come to think of it, on the subject of bikinis, from my experience in the US, unless its for moral reasons or lack of self confidence due to weight problems etc, I would say most young women wear bikinis, at least in the regions I have been to, and I still believe them to be immodest regardless of what “the majority” believes/does. My mom with several moms ran a summer camp and it was always a big deal for several of the counselors and older girls when told that they could only wear one-pieces to the summer camp pool days.

 

[graceandglory]

Ok… I wear a bikini, and I do love really swimming, but I’m not a pro, so the few seconds the hydrodynamics a one-piece would get me in a one-mile run don’t do anything for me…

I love swimming in a bikini, finding it practical for any style, I love the feel of water against my skin, I love that my tummy isn’t cold and wet for a long time after I get out, I love the tan I get on my tummy and back…

After a baby, my tummy isn’t really perfect, I don’t really have a ‘great’ figure, and I’m always at the beach with my husband and daughter, so I don’t see how anyone would be attracted to me because of my swimsuit . My husband’s tummy is bare, and my daughter is naked, so why would I need to cover so much more? I really don’t think I’m tempting anyone

Well, you’re tempting my 14 yr old sons who haven’t quite learned what to do about that. The whole arousal thing is kind of new for them.
That’s not fair to Christian boys. Have to deal with that at the pool too?
Just ask yourself, “is this the loving thing to do for young Christian boys?”

 

[Teakafrog]

Well, you’re tempting my 14 yr old sons who haven’t quite learned what to do about that. The whole arousal thing is kind of new for them.
That’s not fair to Christian boys. Have to deal with that at the pool too?
Just ask yourself, “is this the loving thing to do for young Christian boys?”

Is it the loving thing to do to ANY of our Christian brothers, to purposely entice them into sin? Are we not at least to some extent our brothers’ keeper? Or is it OK now to purposely tempt and taunt someone until they sin?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Is it the loving thing to do to ANY of our Christian brothers, to purposely entice them into sin? Are we not at least to some extent our brothers’ keeper? Or is it OK now to purposely tempt and taunt someone until they sin?

Well think about it this way. Have you ever heard the phrase “undressing someone with your eyes”? That’s a naughty thing for a boy to do, right?

BUT, if you’re wearing a bikini, there’s nothing to undress. In that sense, bikinis are the pinnacle of modesty, right next to nudity. In fact, it’s those people who wear clothes that ought to be ashamed.

 

[Teakafrog]

Well think about it this way. Have you ever heard the phrase “undressing someone with your eyes”? That’s a naughty thing for a boy to do, right?

BUT, if you’re wearing a bikini, there’s nothing to undress. In that sense, bikinis are the pinnacle of modesty, right next to nudity. In fact, it’s those people who wear clothes that ought to be ashamed.

:bowdown: :bowdown2: You crack me up.

 

[whatevergirl]

Is it the loving thing to do to ANY of our Christian brothers, to purposely entice them into sin? Are we not at least to some extent our brothers’ keeper? Or is it OK now to purposely tempt and taunt someone until they sin?

If a woman decides to wear a bikini…it shouldn’t be automatically assumed that she’s interested in taunting others into sin. I am not sure if wearing a bikini is always an act of seduction for many women. Some women, absolutely it is…I wore one when dating my husband, and I know that I wanted him to view me as sexy. I was also a lot younger than I am now, and thus learned that it was immodest of me to do that. I have since learned that is not a good perspective to have, from a modest Christian point of view. BUT…culturally, some women wear them because they don’t see anything wrong with it, and some cultures, women go topless on the beaches, and it’s just the norm.

 

[Jeanne_dArc]

Well think about it this way. Have you ever heard the phrase “undressing someone with your eyes”? That’s a naughty thing for a boy to do, right?

BUT, if you’re wearing a bikini, there’s nothing to undress. In that sense, bikinis are the pinnacle of modesty, right next to nudity. In fact, it’s those people who wear clothes that ought to be ashamed.

Do you think God was joking when in Rom. 14:13,21 and 1 John 2:10? In those two verses in which we are told never to hinder others on their path to salvation? Was God joking in Lev. 18:17 – (“You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness.”)? What about Ephesians 5:5 “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

…

I think this whole picking apart different garments and arguing if they are modest or not is missing a lot of the point of modesty. You don’t ask “how close can I get to the edge of the cliff without falling off?” Modesty is not just about dress, behavior plays a big role as well. For me modesty has sprung from internal conversion and striving for closeness with Christ. Not so much from being told by others that a particular outfit is immodest. Although, I have found out that some things I used to wear can be a “stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.” (Romans 14:13) So I I watch what clothes I buy more now. While it’s not always easy to dress modestly, it’s not always easy to be a faithful Catholic either! I didn’t choose to follow Christ because it was the easy thing to do…

 

[Litcrit]

a poster had made a case for anesthisized consciences, or desensitization to the occasion of sin. (it’s a long thread, i can’t find it. can anyone?) might this quote demonstrate what was meant?

There is a difference between being desensitized to premarital sex or abortion (sin) and being desensitized to seeing a woman’s stomach and back (morally neutral, cultural).

these past 30 years, we Catholics may have done a one-eighty on the sexual occasion of sin topic. Used to be “Forgive me, Father, I had impure thoughts…” was the default confession when nothing else could be remembered. I wonder if ‘impure thoughts’ have become so banal, they go unrecognized as such. worse still, it’s possible that folks have become so saturated, so sex-fatigued that only graphic demonstrations of sexuality cause arrousal.

What Marco mentioned went through his head when he saw an attractive woman in a bikini (‘She’s lovely’) is the same thing many men on this very forum mention goes through their minds when they see a good-looking woman on the street, presumably wearing much more. And it is not even lusting after a woman. What for Marco is a woman in a bikini, is for men from some parts of the US a woman dressed for walking down the street.

LitCrit, it seems you have, every time, agreed with ***subjective ***experience that promotes your perspective and likewise consistently seem to have failed to consider ***objective ***reasoning (as expressed through Scripture and Catechism) especially as it opposes your practice.

Actually, I guess I should have replied to every post, not just those with questions and accusations. Yes, I got some wonderful and interesting answers from the cultural perspective of US men and women. Two are especially memorable, although more individual than cultural: a manthat explained how he interprets the visual ‘symbolism’ of a bikini to be enticing to him, and my fave: Queen Anne’s need to cover her sacred womb. I loved that, it had so much poetry in it.

Is it possible you’re approaching this issue with myopia, looking only at/ for answers that confirm your view? Is it possible your priest was wrong?

Is it possible, LitCrit, that your intense interest in the subject is evidence of God calling you to reject the parameters of modesty defined by western culture and instead follow Him to a more beautiful truth?

I don’t have an intense interest in the subject… I was frankly shocked by a few ideas given on this forum, as I’s never heard anything like this stated before… and I was curious for explanations. I now know better than to ask.

I asked my confessor many, many, many questions 6 years ago when I started taking my faith seriously and went through a scrupulous phase when I needed directions for everything (Can I kiss my fiance? On the mouth? Can I wear high heels? What about a bit of make-up?). He is a very strict, orthodox priest, and I find it deeply troubling that someone would accuse him of some sort of heresy because they might not agree.

in fact, without definitions of all the terms, your charge of puritanism was along the lines of general insult.

To be clear, although I’ve never used this word in this thread, ‘puritanism’ to me is not an insult. What particularly interests me, both in my studies and my life, is how we humans cope with being partly bodily, animalistic beings. This is part of the reason I ask these questions. I believe there is a wide spectrum of allowable reactions to matter, and as long as we’re not either Pantheistic or Manichean, we’re fine.

I have a question, related to all of this. I know this was talked about somewhere in this thread, but I was under the impression that in Europe things in the modesty/purity arena were sort of a step ahead of the US in degradation, and I don’t mean this as any form of insult or anything, I am just wondering as it was just anectdotal from people, both European and from the Americas, that I have spoken with. For example, we had a German friend visiting and were in a turist location. A group of German tourists were there (not anyone our friend knew) and they were changing clothes in the parking lot by their car, out in the open. Our German friend commented something to the effects that it wouldn’t be so shocking in Germany since people there were less careful with modesty. We lived in Germany when I was little and my mom also remembers taking us to the beach and having a woman sitting next to us take off her bathing suit and put on regular clothes right there at the beach on her towel. I have heard similar anecdotes from other European countries. Aside from traveling when I was little, I have only been to Italy a couple of times and Germany, for a week at a time, so I have not been totally immersed in the European culture. When I have spoken with people that have lived there and a subject related to modesty or purity comes up, I have always left with the impression that the culture was more desensitized there… Is this incorrect?

I wouldn’t necessarily call this more degraded… Yes, people are less wary of exposing skin here and there, and people look less, or look away, and don’t care, and don’t get all excited. It’s a different mindset - not necessarily better or worse, IMO.

Well, you’re tempting my 14 yr old sons who haven’t quite learned what to do about that. The whole arousal thing is kind of new for them.
That’s not fair to Christian boys. Have to deal with that at the pool too?
Just ask yourself, “is this the loving thing to do for young Christian boys?”

I believe this was uncalled for. I’m not tempting your boys. I live half the world away, never go to pools anyway (hate them), only go to huge half-deserted beaches with two grannies (in bikinis) and a family (mom in a bikini, dad in a speedo) with a couple of naked toddlers within eyesight. I have never done anything wrong to you or your family. Your comment was unnecessarily hurtful.

 

[Litcrit]

Lev. 18:17 – (“You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness.”)?

I hate to be a nerd, but ‘to uncover one’s nakedness’ means to have sex with them

…

I think this whole picking apart different garments and arguing if they are modest or not is missing a lot of the point of modesty. You don’t ask “how close can I get to the edge of the cliff without falling off?” Modesty is not just about dress, behavior plays a big role as well. For me modesty has sprung from internal conversion and striving for closeness with Christ. Not so much from being told by others that a particular outfit is immodest. Although, I have found out that some things I used to wear can be a “stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.” (Romans 14:13) So I I watch what clothes I buy more now. While it’s not always easy to dress modestly, it’s not always easy to be a faithful Catholic either! I didn’t choose to follow Christ because it was the easy thing to do…

I believe you are right.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Do you think God was joking when in Rom. 14:13,21 and 1 John 2:10? In those two verses in which we are told never to hinder others on their path to salvation? Was God joking in Lev. 18:17 – (“You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness.”)? What about Ephesians 5:5 “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

…

I think this whole picking apart different garments and arguing if they are modest or not is missing a lot of the point of modesty. You don’t ask “how close can I get to the edge of the cliff without falling off?” Modesty is not just about dress, behavior plays a big role as well. For me modesty has sprung from internal conversion and striving for closeness with Christ. Not so much from being told by others that a particular outfit is immodest. Although, I have found out that some things I used to wear can be a “stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.” (Romans 14:13) So I I watch what clothes I buy more now. While it’s not always easy to dress modestly, it’s not always easy to be a faithful Catholic either! I didn’t choose to follow Christ because it was the easy thing to do…

It was a joke, I misplaced my tag.

 

[chevalier]

I have a question, related to all of this. I know this was talked about somewhere in this thread, but I was under the impression that in Europe things in the modesty/purity arena were sort of a step ahead of the US in degradation, and I don’t mean this as any form of insult or anything, I am just wondering as it was just anectdotal from people, both European and from the Americas, that I have spoken with.

In my impression, the US is more bipolar. More freedom of expression, but more puritanism. Europe is more laid back and less internally conflicted.

A group of German tourists were there (not anyone our friend knew) and they were changing clothes in the parking lot by their car, out in the open. Our German friend commented something to the effects that it wouldn’t be so shocking in Germany since people there were less careful with modesty.

Firstly, if it was near a beach or pool, that would indeed be more or less normal in Europe. Secondly, Nordic people seem to be less concerned with nudity and Germans might be as well because of ethnic and mental similarities. Thirdly, however, still, if there were no functional circumstances, such as beach or physical work or whatever such, but just swapping outfits, that does sound rather uninhibited. More in terms of gross than in terms of enticing, though.

We lived in Germany when I was little and my mom also remembers taking us to the beach and having a woman sitting next to us take off her bathing suit and put on regular clothes right there at the beach on her towel. I have heard similar anecdotes from other European countries.

Poor upbringing is wide-spread. Even though toplessness is gaining ground in the West and the South, people do not uncover their behinds in public on beaches. German tourists do seem more forward than others, but still, wouldn’t even call it a minority behaviour, but rather an eccentric exception.

When I have spoken with people that have lived there and a subject related to modesty or purity comes up, I have always left with the impression that the culture was more desensitized there… Is this incorrect?

I tend to think the West is desensitised, the US is over-sensitised and Poland is closer to normal.

 

[chevalier]

If a woman decides to wear a bikini…it shouldn’t be automatically assumed that she’s interested in taunting others into sin. I am not sure if wearing a bikini is always an act of seduction for many women. Some women, absolutely it is…I wore one when dating my husband, and I know that I wanted him to view me as sexy. I was also a lot younger than I am now, and thus learned that it was immodest of me to do that. I have since learned that is not a good perspective to have, from a modest Christian point of view. BUT…culturally, some women wear them because they don’t see anything wrong with it, and some cultures, women go topless on the beaches, and it’s just the norm.

I don’t think toplessness on the beach is the norm anywhere. Considered socially acceptable by the secular society, maybe, but not norm per se. “Acceptable” crossing of the norm maybe, but not the norm. It is still violating a certain taboo. Please note that pre-adult girls would be expected to wear a top. This says a lot.

However, I’m behind the times. I was utterly shocked with the popularity of toplessness a year ago when I went to Rhodes. I don’t particularly feel like going to the beach West or South of Poland any more, really. Here it is legally forbidden.