Bikinis are immodest - why exactly?

[Lost_Wanderer]

The fact that you’re saying this is quite worrying to me.

Why? Afraid of responsibility?

 

[Daegus]

There is a problem with it. I think women should be held accountable for how they dress. They can’t dress with half their bodies hanging out and then complain about the attention they get. Yes, men should do their very best to control looking, but it isn’t very fair for the women to flaunt themselves in front of them.

Oh, but of course it’s fair. It’s very fair that men should be accountable for everything they do and women for nothing, unless they do something so incongruous that the whole world, in its entirety, screams to the heavens in antiphon for vengeance.

 

[happymommy]

Ever heard of “Don’t judge a book by its cover”? (I swear, I must have said this over a hundred times on these threads already.)

Nobody, and I mean nobody, should ever be held accountable for their appearance (at least, on the harsh level the party of modesty seems to do). It makes people think that who they are is only measurable by their physical make up. Self-righteous Pharisees who condemn women just because their bodies look good in a bikini are just as morally shallow as studs who avoid women whose waists are a millimeter over their desired waistline.

The way I see it, standards and norms only exist so that you don’t draw too much attention to yourself.

I’m not judging anyone and I’m not condemning anyone for looking good in a bikini…good for them! Once upon a time I looked good in one too! I loved the attention I got! I know I caused young men to sin because of it. That was a huge mistake on my part and theirs too! I shouldn’t have been dressed like that and they shouldn’t have been looking! They wouldn’t have been looking at me in an unproper way IF I hadn’t had my whole body out their for them to look at. It’s a two way street.

And you are right, it is shallow for anyone to avoid someone because of their weight! There is no perfect body size!!

 

[Daegus]

Why? Afraid of responsibility?

No, I was worried that you would soon become hostile to someone with opposing views, as noted by your use of an ad hominem attack above.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

No, I was worried that you would soon become hostile to someone with opposing views, as noted by your use of an ad hominem attack above.

All my life, I have been a victim of people like you who think appearances justify treating people with lesser dignity. In grade school up till high school, I was the scrawny four-eyes who looked like a nerd and should be beaten up/mocked to self-loathing because I looked like a nerd.

These days, I still get people like that only fortunately enough, they don’t beat me up for it. Instead they just politely tell me that my combination of hoodies and slacks make me look like I’m about to mug and kill somebody. Great.

When I read threads like these, I see the same people who think they know everything about a person because their appearance “says it all”.

I’m here to tell you know, the surface hardly says anything.

P.S.

Ad hominem? Read up the term before pretending to know what it means. The concept of blame is quite relevant to responsibility. Men (and women) should be blamed for their perverted tendencies and lack of control over them, not anyone who dresses because frankly what you look like hardly matters when compared to who you are.

 

[Daegus]

All my life, I have been a victim of people like you who think appearances justify treating people with lesser dignity. In grade school up till high school, I was the scrawny four-eyes who looked like a nerd and should be beaten up/mocked to self-loathing because I looked like a nerd.

These days, I still get people like that only fortunately enough, they don’t beat me up for it. Instead they just politely tell me that my combination of hoodies and slacks make me look like I’m about to mug and kill somebody. Great.

Now you’re pretending to know me, and projecting your life story onto me as if I am the source of all of your problems. You’re also suggesting I’m saying things that I’m not.

When I read threads like these, I see the same people who think they know everything about a person because their appearance “says it all”.

I’m here to tell you know, the surface hardly says anything.

Again, I am not saying what you seem to be fantasizing that I’m saying.

P.S.

Ad hominem? Read up the term before pretending to know what it means. The concept of blame is quite relevant to responsibility. Men (and women) should be blamed for their perverted tendencies and lack of control over them, not anyone who dresses because frankly what you look like hardly matters when compared to who you are.

Why don’t you look up the definition of an ad hominem:
reference.dictionary.com:

• adjective

1. appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.

You were asking me if I, personally, was afraid of responsibility. I am not the topic of this discussion, so you have no reason to be discussing me. This is just a very pathetic attempt of yours to steer the discussion in a character assassination game. I’m not falling for it.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m not judging anyone and I’m not condemning anyone for looking good in a bikini…good for them! Once upon a time I looked good in one too! I loved the attention I got! I know I caused young men to sin because of it. That was a huge mistake on my part and theirs too! I shouldn’t have been dressed like that and they shouldn’t have been looking! They wouldn’t have been looking at me in an unproper way IF I hadn’t had my whole body out their for them to look at. It’s a two way street.

No you see, the thing here is it isn’t right to blame yourself for how people react to your appearance in ways you did not intend. That is not your fault. It is people’s fault for being so shallow. The men sinned because they couldn’t control their raging hormones. I tell you now you will find a lot of sources that say that even oh-so-modest Middle East has rape problems.

My point on threads like this has always been this: You are not what you wear.

You may think people express themselves with their clothes (I certainly do) but I choose to appear that way for myself, not for anyone else. I care not for what others think of my fashion sense.

Trust men, when you’ve hung around with as many idiotic studs as I have, you will realize that no amount of clothing will protect anyone from them. The problem is not with the people they look at. The problem is within themselves and you have no responsibility over their weakness. It is their cross to bear, not yours and it shouldn’t be your fault that they refuse to carry. They will be accountable to that one day.

And you are right, it is shallow for anyone to avoid someone because of their weight! There is no perfect body size!!

It is also shallow to judge a woman because they think they “look like a hooker” but you’d be surprised how I’ve seen a lot of posters here say that about girls dressed in “immodest” clothing.

Apparently people have forgotten 1 Samuel 16:7.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You were asking me if I, personally, was afraid of responsibility. I am not the topic of this discussion, so you have no reason to be discussing me. This is just a very pathetic attempt of yours to steer the discussion in a character assassination game. I’m not falling for it.

Actually my first (and honest) question was really if you sounded like you hated the idea of men being blamed for the perversity. Your response was obscure, if anything THAT was an ad hominem.

Then again, this isn’t the first time you’ve overreacted.

Everything I have said has been relevant to the discussion.
I asked you whether or not you like the idea of men (or better yet, people in general) being blamed their perverted tendencies. Your response sounded very defensive and (adding your suspiciously sarcastic response to happymommy over there) prompted me to ask whether you were afraid of people being held responsible over their hormones with absolutely no recourse to blaming the physical appearances of others.

 

[Daegus]

Actually my first (and honest) question was really if you sounded like you hated the idea of men being blamed for the perversity. Your response was obscure, if anything THAT was an ad hominem.

No it wasn’t. I already posted the definition of an ad hominem. You can’t just bend words to your own will and then expect your arguments here to be coherent. I never at one point attacked your character. Now, when it comes to you, I can’t exactly say the same thing.

Then again, this isn’t the first time you’ve overreacted.

Regardless of your petty accusations, the reality still stands. You are just trying to assassinate my character by (1) asking me if I’m somehow “afraid of responsibility”, when the topic of bikinis in and of itself has nothing to do with me personally, (2) bringing up anecdotes about your life and projecting them onto me as if I am this great big bully that caused you to hate yourself or something and (3) bringing up a contention from an old thread that also has nothing to do with the topic being discussed here.

Everything I have said has been relevant to the discussion.

False. Me being afraid of anything has nothing to do with the topic of bikinis being discussed.

I asked you whether or not you like the idea of men (or better yet, people in general) being blamed their perverted tendencies. Your response sounded very defensive and (adding your suspiciously sarcastic response to happymommy over there) prompted me to ask whether you were afraid of people being held responsible over their hormones with absolutely no recourse to blaming the physical appearances of others.

Of course men are responsible for their own perversity, but you don’t need me to admit that, because you already know it. The point I was trying to make was that catering to that perversity with immodest dress code only unnecessarily exacerbates the problem. You seem to be suggesting that such immodest dress that disregards the souls of others is perfectly fine. If you are not suggesting that, I would like you to clarify. Hopefully, if I wasn’t clear before, my points are cogent enough for you now.

If you want to discuss things with people that don’t agree with you, the best way to get them to change their mind isn’t to instigate or pursue contention. It doesn’t solve anything. When you’re ready to stop arguing things that don’t matter, and actually have a discussion with someone that does not see things the way you do, perhaps then we’ll talk. Otherwise, I see no reason as to why I should even be responding to you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Of course men are responsible for their own perversity, but you don’t need me to admit that, because you already know it. The point I was trying to make was that catering to that perversity with immodest dress code only unnecessarily exacerbates the problem. You seem to be suggesting that such immodest dress, disregarding the souls of others is perfectly fine. If you are not suggesting that, I would like you to clarify. Hopefully, if I wasn’t clear before, my points are cogent enough for you now.

Ah so the truth comes out. In other words, you do justify the idea that appearances seem to have an uncontrollable effect on people that rightly “justifies” immoral actions. In other words, everything I’ve said has still been relevant all along!

Let’s apply your line of reasoning to another scenario shall we? Suppose jocks beat up nerds because they look like nerds. Looking like nerds “exacerbates” the problem of bullying. Hence, people shouldn’t look like nerds so that jocks wouldn’t be tempted to beat them up. In conclusion, it is then morally justifiable to force people to look like somebody they don’t want to look like which then leads to justifying the idea that a person’s dignity is measurable purely on his/her outward appearances.

You think I don’t see what you’re trying to go for here? All you’re doing is trying to make women bear a burden in a vain attempt of “equalizing”. I said it once, I say it again (and I’ve said it many times over in other modesty threads) nobody should be blamed for their appearance. So I ask again, what are you afraid of? Why do you insist that women bear a blame when in fact, you shouldn’t be judging people’s appearances in the first place? Would that make your responsibility as a human being greater? Well then, GOOD!

You CAN choose whether or not to react to a person’s clothes in the same manner you can choose whether or not to react to a painting, a billboard, or any static aesthetic imagery that will never reveal anything about a person. Telling people to “cover up” is ultimately futile when the problem is that every proud pervert’s view of sexuality is rotten to the core. Trust me, I’ve hung around with at least three such people every day. You are advising people to cover up wolf bites when the wolf is standing right in front of you and you should be shooting it.

 

[Serap]

a lot of young women ages 16-24 honestly don’t realize the effect they have on men. I agree that not every young woman wearing a bikini is ugly on the inside. Some of them are wonderful gentle and kind human beings, but they don’t treat their bodies with dignity simply b/c they don’t know any better.

I would never judge a young woman wearing sexy clothes or a bikini. I don’t know how she was raised and she’s still very young. I would never assume that she must be unattractive on the inside or that she’s just “needy” of attention.

Young women (16-24) can be very ignorant. They haven’t fully reached a maturity level that would allow them to understand how this all works.

Not ALL young women, but some. For this reason, I hold back judgement with the young women.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

a lot of young women ages 16-24 honestly don’t realize the effect they have on men. I agree that not every young woman wearing a bikini is ugly on the inside. Some of them are wonderful gentle and kind human beings, but they don’t treat their bodies with dignity simply b/c they don’t know any better.

I seriously think the “effect” is really more of men not using their brains and realizing that they’re looking at a person, not a sex object.

Now I’ve used my personal life example of nerds and jocks for a really good reason. There is just a really glaring similarity between looking down on a person because he/she looks “geeky”, sexually objectifying good-looking people because they have “hot bods”, and even judging people as “attention-seeking” or “slutty” because they dress “immodestly”.

They all have a root in the same principle that your appearance somehow means the end-all of your entire personhood.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I prefer swimsuits with a bit more of… well… support in them, due to my female anatomy. Bikinis and two-pieces tend to do that better for me than a one-piece.

The whole “women should cover up because men can’t help themselves looking” is a bit of a medieval argument to me. But then, I am a misguided feminist.

 

[Daegus]

Ah so the truth comes out. In other words, you do justify the idea that appearances seem to have an uncontrollable effect on people that rightly “justifies” immoral actions. In other words, everything I’ve said has still been relevant all along!

sigh… How you keep coming to these conclusions is beyond me.

Let’s apply your line of reasoning to another scenario shall we? Suppose jocks beat up nerds because they look like nerds. Looking like nerds “exacerbates” the problem of bullying. Hence, people shouldn’t look like nerds so that jocks wouldn’t be tempted to beat them up. In conclusion, it is then morally justifiable to force people to look like somebody they don’t want to look like which then leads to justifying the idea that a person’s dignity is measurable purely on his/her outward appearances.

There’s one problem with this scenario that you’re not taking into account. Dressing like a nerd is not sinful. Dressing immodestly is. If you are dressing immodestly and putting people’s souls in a risky situation, you cannot seriously believe that you are somehow just in your attire. This doesn’t even make sense to me.

You think I don’t see what you’re trying to go for here? All you’re doing is trying to make women bear a burden in a vain attempt of “equalizing”. I said it once, I say it again (and I’ve said it many times over in other modesty threads) nobody should be blamed for their appearance. So I ask again, what are you afraid of? Why do you insist that women bear a blame when in fact, you shouldn’t be judging people’s appearances in the first place? Would that make your responsibility as a human being greater? Well then, GOOD!

You’re really beginning to bore me. What I am saying is that everyone should be held accountable for the way they dress. You don’t seem to believe so. Playing logical runarounds with me in hopes to somehow trump my arguments with strange reasoning really serves no purpose. You seem to be incapable of creating a dichotomy between judging someone’s appearance, and judging them (which I am not doing). God calls us to judge actions. By putting on immodest attire, you are purposely choosing (to choose = an action) to present yourself in an immodest lite. This is something you can control, and it’s absolutely not the same thing as condemning someone for the color of their skin or the way their nose is shaped and so on, as these are things that cannot naturally be controlled. (which I have not been doing).

You CAN choose whether or not to react to a person’s clothes in the same manner you can choose whether or not to react to a painting, a billboard, or any static aesthetic imagery that will never reveal anything about a person. Telling people to “cover up” is ultimately futile when the problem is that every proud pervert’s view of sexuality is rotten to the core. Trust me, I’ve hung around with at least three such people every day. You are advising people to cover up wolf bites when the wolf is standing right in front of you and you should be shooting it.

I have a friend who was beaten by her mother when she was younger. Her mother attacked her with a knife and a bat. The other day, someone brought a shirt to school with a pattern of knives on it and she started freaking out. Applying your logic to this situation, I suppose she was perfectly capable of preventing her reaction to the way that person dressed. I’m sure she has complete control over the way she feels about knives, given the way she was treated as a child, right? Saying that you can choose to react to something doesn’t even make sense. Can you choose to be gay (emotionally/sexually reacting to men you are attracted to)? Can you choose to be heterosexual (emotionally/sexually reacting to women you are attracted to)? Think your arguments through, please.

I am not telling anyone to do anything. I am simply saying that dressing immodestly is not helpful to anyone and is sinful. It’s obvious that you are not really interested in genuine debate, so I’m not going to bother responding anymore. Some people do not know that they are dressing immodestly. For this I do not blame them. I just hope that some day they can come to see that they should pay more care to the way that they dress.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Why bother getting a suit if you are going to cover it with a t-shirt and another skirt. Seems pointless to me. Just wear shorts and a t-shirt if that’s the look you are going to end up with
Women have breasts! And while I don’t think we need to wear things to draw attention to them or have them hanging out, I also don’t think we need to cover ourselves with sacks to make people forget we have them!

Do you remember the Little House on the Prairie episode about Sylvia? She was the girl at school with the uptight widowed father. Remember how her father would blame her for the attention the boys would give her and force her to wear some weird under garment to flatten her out?

We have breasts.

Nothing I can wear would make me look like a boy…but I guess that’s a bit off topic.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

There’s one problem with this scenario that you’re not taking into account. Dressing like a nerd is not sinful. Dressing immodestly is. If you are dressing immodestly and putting people’s souls in a risky situation, you cannot seriously believe that you are somehow just in your attire. This doesn’t even make sense to me.

Modesty has little to do with what you wear. You could very well accuse me of immodesty because I dress like a nerd in a school of full of A-crowd airheads.

I once asked people why they are so obsessed with modesty in dress and yet do not care for modesty in character.

That question is still open.

You’re really beginning to bore me.

Now who is the one making an ad hom?

What I am saying is that everyone should be held accountable for the way they dress. You don’t seem to believe so. Playing logical runarounds with me in hopes to somehow trump my arguments with strange reasoning really serves no purpose. You seem to be incapable of creating a dichotomy between judging someone’s appearance, and judging them (which I am not doing). God calls us to judge actions. By putting on immodest attire, you are purposely choosing (to choose = an action) to present yourself in an immodest lite. This is something you can control, and it’s absolutely not the same thing as condemning someone for the color of their skin or the way their nose is shaped and so on, as these are things that cannot naturally be controlled. (which I have not been doing).

There is no such dichotomy. You are promoting a myth and deluding yourself if you think people’s appearances are worth moral sanction. Following your logic, right-wing nuts have every right to make fun of Muslims and Arabs because they dress like such (turbans, burqas etc.) Again, the root principle is the same. It doesn’t matter if you choose your appearance or not. The fact remains that you continue to espouse the shallow mentality that evaluating people’s clothes is somehow equal to evaluating their person. End of story. Own up. Admit it. You are as shallow as the people who objectify women/men because of their physical figures.

Oh and FYI? Putting on clothes is hardly any more a moral action than drinking water or cooking.

I have a friend who was beaten by her mother when she was younger. Her mother attacked her with a knife and a bat. The other day, someone brought a shirt to school with a pattern of knives on it and she started freaking out. Applying your logic to this situation, I suppose she was perfectly capable of preventing her reaction to the way that person dressed. I’m sure she has complete control over the way she feels about knives, given the way she was treated as a child, right?

Yes, yes, and yes.

By the way, I was bullied by a guy who dressed in typical gangster fashion (in his case, a basketball shirt over a plain white one and his neck carried some bling), does that give me every right to have a negative attitude towards anybody who wears in a similar fashion? Who is the one appealing to emotion here?

Saying that you can choose to react to something doesn’t even make sense. Can you choose to be gay (emotionally/sexually reacting to men you are attracted to)? Can you choose to be heterosexual (emotionally/sexually reacting to women you are attracted to)? Think your arguments through, please.

Apples and oranges. Your statement here is irrelevant. The topic here isn’t about sexual orientation. It is about control and the responsibility you have over your urges. Again, I ask you. You really sound like someone with an aversion to being held accountable over your eyes.

What are you afraid of?

I am not telling anyone to do anything. I am simply saying that dressing immodestly is not helpful to anyone and is sinful. It’s obvious that you are not really interested in genuine debate, so I’m not going to bother responding anymore. Some people do not know that they are dressing immodestly. For this I do not blame them. I just hope that some day they can come to see that they should pay more care to the way that they dress.

Yes you are. You are telling everyone to treat their appearances as if who they are on the surface is all there is. In other words, you advocate and give excuses for the shallow mentality which is even in direct violation of 1 Samuel 16:7. Copping out by calling me “not interested” in “genuine” debate, accusing me of “ad homs” and “emotional appeals” whilst being the only one who has done such only makes you look hypocritical and cowardly.

The only dichotomy here is either you judge people based on their appearance or you don’t. There is no middle road. The only way judging a person’s looks will ever be separated from judging their person in the ludicrous manner you describe is when you evaluate the former like a fashion critic, not a moral one. (whistles Halt! Fashion Police! Your bikini top doesn’t match your towel!)

 

[heart4home]

Why bother getting a suit if you are going to cover it with a t-shirt and another skirt. Seems pointless to me. Just wear shorts and a t-shirt if that’s the look you are going to end up with
Women have breasts! And while I don’t think we need to wear things to draw attention to them or have them hanging out, I also don’t think we need to cover ourselves with sacks to make people forget we have them!

Because swimming in a t-shirt can be uncomfortable, if it’s really wet.

I said, we didn’t need to wear sacks, but even as a woman, personally I don’t want to see the cleavage of your breasts. But obviously nobody cares if it makes others uncomfortable, man or woman, they figure that’s just their problem, and get over it.

 

[heart4home]

Do you remember the Little House on the Prairie episode about Sylvia? She was the girl at school with the uptight widowed father. Remember how her father would blame her for the attention the boys would give her and force her to wear some weird under garment to flatten her out?

We have breasts.

Nothing I can wear would make me look like a boy…but I guess that’s a bit off topic.

Yes we have breasts, but we don’t need to see the flesh of them. I mean seriously, what’s so special about the nipple? If we can see the rest of the skin of them, why not see it too?

It’s amazing how many women today have such perfectly round, wonderful breasts even at the age of 40 or 50. Of cousre that’s not thanks to God is it, that’s thanks to implants. I know the reason so many get them done today isn’t because of the fact that we see breasts as sexual or anything, right?. We just get those implants to fill out our bathing suits.

So we’ve gone from uptight dad’s like fiction character Sylvia’s father, to a whole world full of women having surgery to fill out bathing suit tops on the beach. That’s progress?

 

[Vico]

Because swimming in a t-shirt can be uncomfortable, if it’s really wet.

I said, we didn’t need to wear sacks, but even as a woman, personally I don’t want to see the cleavage of your breasts. But obviously nobody cares if it makes others uncomfortable, man or woman, they figure that’s just their problem, and get over it.

Since there are two aspects to the issue, the first being scandal and the second being lustful thoughts and actions. Now how many ways can we sin with appearance:

1. Intentionally seeking a sexual thrill from being observed in immodest attire, other than through the spouse. (Including seeking fornication or adultery or other sexual sins as a result.)
2. Lusting through observation of somebody in immodest attire. (Including seeking fornication or adultery or other sexual sins as a result.)
3. Scandal: being uncharitible by doing something sinful for us, or even not sinful for us, when another is lead into sin through it.
4. Great pride and also false pride in our physical appearance. (Pride opposes humility. False pride is in something we did not accomplish.)

Sometimes the above items may be mortal sometimes venial, depending upon the matter and situation, but either way, imperfect in action or thought. Lust is serious matter.

 

[Serap]

bikinis look rediculous on 95% of the women that wear them anyway. They are very unflattering for most women. More coverage can conceal our “small” imperfections while at the same time, maintaining modesty.

I was down South last month and there were so many women wearing bikinis with huge bellies and sagging bodies…it was just YUCK!

Bikinis only look good on younger women…that’s what they are designed for. Young tight sexy figures so they can show it all of and put themselves on display.

1. It makes me very jealous
2. It makes my husband check them out
3. It makes every man’s head turn 180 degrees - causes sore necks
4. You guys just look too dang sexy, so cover up a bit…you can still look gorgeous and modest at the same time
5. Enjoy your youth…it’s fleeting LOL!