"Bilingual" frustrations

[Whitacre_Girl]

Hello all!

I am currently attending a parish with a very diverse community…and it’s AWESOME!!! I even had an opportunity to attend a mass entirely in spanish. It was really great to see how people from other languages and cultures celebrate the mass!

I did recently have a frustration though, and I am not entirely sure what to do with it. Our Ash Wedneday service was originally planned to be celebrated in our parish as bilingual. That means some things are in english, and some in spanish (no translation for anyone though, so you get to miss half of what’s going on for both sides)Well, this didn’t happen, simply because there wasn’t the man power (or building space!!) to pull it off, so there was just an english service, and a spanish service.

Well, I guess one of the more vocal hispanic men came to our services (english) with the express purpose of protesting. In the earlier service, he sang songs in spanish, and even interrupted the cantor to say in ENGLISH that they would be singing the songs in spanish. In the service I attended, he came as well – still wearing the ashes from the earlier service – and not only responded LOUDLY (so loud I couldn’t hear myself or those around me) to the prayers and responses during eucharist, that I just had to stop responding (like many other english speakers around me), or speak louder myself so I could focus. He was also giving the people around him (white people) dirty looks, especially during the distribution of ashes. It was not a prayerful and solemn service. It was horrible. He even helped himself to the pulpit at the end for unplanned “announcements” that were entirely in spanish with no translation. I know it was unplanned because or priest was rather shocked that he was standing at the microphone, ready to speak.

I admit, that the issue of bilingual ability is a rough one for me. I have been turned down for several jobs because I don’t speak fluent spanish (although I speak a little). There is a lot of stress surrounding this issue for me, and I go to church to lay it all down and worship with my brothers and sisters in christ. Not to be in the middle of a political statement.

What do I do about this? I have emailed the priest to tell him what went on, should I just leave it there? I really don’t want to have to find another parish because mine has turned into weekly protests…

 

[promethius]

What do I do about this? I have emailed the priest to tell him what went on, should I just leave it there? I really don’t want to have to find another parish because mine has turned into weekly protests…

My surly Irish priest growing up would have forcibly evicted the man from the altar, if not stepped up to prevent him from coming up in the first place. Today, i’m sure, that would be a racial hate crime.

You’ve done your part. Attempt now to bear it if you have to. Remember, forgive seven times seven and then some more.

To use the mass as a political tool rather than for appropriate worship is sacrilage. This is now a matter between the priest, who’s job it is to enforce the strictures of orthodoxy at the mass, the man, and God.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

My surly Irish priest growing up would have forcibly evicted the man from the altar, if not stepped up to prevent him from coming up in the first place. Today, i’m sure, that would be a racial hate crime.

You’ve done your part. Attempt now to bear it if you have to. Remember, forgive seven times seven and then some more.

To use the mass as a political tool rather than for appropriate worship is sacrilage. This is now a matter between the priest, who’s job it is to enforce the strictures of orthodoxy at the mass, the man, and God.

Thanks. I hope to hear back from the head priest of our parish soon. I just really passionatly feel that when we walk through the doors of that church, all politics need to be laid aside so we can peaceably worship. I was highly disturbed by what happened. So were many in my family.

 

[daeve]

Any behavior that interrupts the solemnity of the Mass is inappropriate. I wonder what he was trying to accomplish, beyond annoying people who were there to worship. If both a Mass in Spanish and a Mass in English were offered, I guess I don’t see what his problem was. A Mass that was said partly in each language wouldn’t be very satisfying for anyone who didn’t speak both languages.

You can’t really make someone sing or pray more quietly, but to disrupt what the priest was doing was plain old rude no matter what the man’s point might be. I’m surprised some ushers didn’t give him the “bum’s rush” right out the door.

I wonder if the priest knew what the man was saying??? Maybe he addressed the issue after Mass.

 

[gloria97000]

May have been some mental illness there, too. Judge not, and move on…

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

May have been some mental illness there, too. Judge not, and move on…

Actually, no. When I talked to someone about it, trying to figure out what was going on, that person knew him, and has known him for a while. He’s not suffering a mental issue, he’s just really adamant about us all speaking spanish in all the masses, whether or not everyone can speak spanish. (bilingual)

 

[mystified]

Lo siento.
I have witnessed this in reverse. English only members of the parish objecting to and distracting from the Mass in Spanish…this in a community where one Mass of six on the weekend is in Spanish and where some 25% of the parish is Spanish-speaking.
The topper, though, was the Sunday when I was serving as a usher at the Spanish Mass. A lady protested to me that she wanted it in Chinese!

 

[daeve]

Actually, no. When I talked to someone about it, trying to figure out what was going on, that person knew him, and has known him for a while. He’s not suffering a mental issue, he’s just really adamant about us all speaking spanish in all the masses, whether or not everyone can speak spanish. (bilingual)

Do you live in a Spanish speaking country? If you live in the US, expecting all the Masses to be said in a language that isn’t the standard of the country is pretty bizarre to me. If all the members of the parish were Spanish speaking it would make some sense, but there are obviously other people there.

We have several parishes in St. Louis that use other languages, but the vast majority of the parishioners are those who speak that language. That doesn’t seem to be the case in your parish.

 

[Tepeyac]

It sounds to me like like there’s something going on beneath the surface. Some thoughts:

1)This is not a bilingual issue. This is a “disruptive parishioner” issue.

2)If he disrupted mass then yes you were right to emial the priest. Is the priest you emailed the pastor? He needs to know this man’s behavior.

3)Is this someone involved in regular parish life like a cantor or an usher?

(If he helped himself to the pulpit it sounds like he was quite comfortable moving around the sanctuary.)

Was he aware of the changes to the schedule? Maybe he’s confused about his responsibilites and overstepped his boundaries. The pastor should know about this so that:

a. this man knows what his correct responsibilites are and
b. there’s better planning and no confusion in the future.

4)Afterwards you might politely inquire of the pastor if the issue was resolved (assuming he’s able to talk about it). This is for your own peace of mind.

4)You mentioned the service was originally supposed to be bilingual but there are no translations available. There are bilingual resources out there. For instance, bilingual misallettes with the readings, prayers, and order of mass on facing pages in english and another language. It sounds like your parish should probably consider some of these resources.

 

[Dauphin]

DO IT IN LATIN!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Tepeyac]

Even if the service had been in Latin that wouldn’t have solved a numer of problems:

1. You would still have to deal with the disruptive parishioner and what ever his issues are. In my opinion he’s the real issue in this situation.
2. You’d would still have to provide translations for the faithful. You could encourage the faithful to bring their own bilingual or trilingual missals but then I think a parish would have to see that these are accesible to the faithful. The ones I’ve seen for the Extroardinary Form are rather expensive ($45-$50+).

3)Getting off topic but even in the days of the Latin mass there still existed national parishes for different groups within a city: the Italian parish, the Polish parish, the French-Canadian parish, etc. The Church church took people’s background and language into account when ministering to the faithful.

But I think the problem in this instance was on dispruptive individual.

 

[Dauphin]

Even if the service had been in Latin that wouldn’t have solved a numer of problems:

1. You would still have to deal with the disruptive parishioner and what ever his issues are. In my opinion he’s the real issue in this situation.
2. You’d would still have to provide translations for the faithful. You could encourage the faithful to bring their own bilingual or trilingual missals but then I think a parish would have to see that these are accesible to the faithful. The ones I’ve seen for the Extroardinary Form are rather expensive ($45-$50+).

3)Getting off topic but even in the days of the Latin mass there still existed national parishes for different groups within a city: the Italian parish, the Polish parish, the French-Canadian parish, etc. The Church church took people’s background and language into account when ministering to the faithful.

But I think the problem in this instance was on dispruptive individual.

Latin solves everything. Traditional Latin hymns unite all Catholics. What the OP describes wouldn’t have happened if we all cherished and put into practice our collective heritage as Catholics.

Btw, the “days of the Latin Mass” have yet to come. Count on it.

 

[promethius]

I think I have thought of a solution for you.

Sit next to him, literally RIGHT THERE. Every time he disrupts the mass, say quietly (so as not to disturb the mass yourself) but enough so that he can hear “Father, forgive him for he knows not what he does.”

And, of course, if he goes to leave the pew to make his spanish announcements, simply don’t get out of his way

 

[Tepeyac]

Latin solves everything. Traditional Latin hymns unite all Catholics. What the OP describes wouldn’t have happened if we all cherished and put into practice our collective heritage as Catholics.

And yet we still had national parishes in the days of the latin mass.

Believe me I like latin. I collect and listen to Gregorian Chant CDs, am teaching myself the Our Father in latin, and hope to learn it. But it’s not a cure for everything.

I think the problem in the OP is the individual’s behavior.

 

[FAB]

My parish for a number of years has been doing bi-ligual services. We have limited them to those feast and celebrations which need the community to come together as on, particular Holy Week services.
It has been a struggle at time with objections from both Primarily English and Spanish speakers. It is important to explain that we are not taking away anyones culture or language, but instead we are all one body of Christ in which language should not seperate us in our worship. We teach, love your neighbor as yourself, which this case may mean giving up part of one’s own comfort. Our parish has invested in bi-ligual missals and hymals. It’s still a point of contention for some, but the vast majority now accepts the practice.

Peace,
FAB

 

[plato3]

If It Was Not For The Spanish Presence In Our Area, The Churches Would Be Empty.They Are Such Good Examples To All Of Devotion To The Faith. Would That The Rest Of The Faithful Show Up For Mass The Way They Do!

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Well, the problem is nothing really disrupts the prayerful attitude like splitting language like that. Having to totally tune out for 10 minutes at a time because you can’t understand anything that is going on is detrimental to BOTH sides. I have heard the spanish and english speakers both complain. We don’t go to mass to fill the seat, but to have a close and moving experience with God. It seems to me that most people want spanish and english masses, and the events thrown by our church to be accomadating to both languages. That way we can worship in totality, and have fellowship at other events.

 

[graceandglory]

May have been some mental illness there, too. Judge not, and move on…

I’ve spent my fair share of years in “inner city” churches. That was my gut reaction to the OP’s post.

That’s what the bouncers, errr, ushers, are for. In the inner city, we were familiar with wacky people coming in and causing major disruptions. The ushers knew what their job was though. Sometimes we’d get singers and dancers and shakers, and even once, JESUS himself (!) came in.
Okay, maybe it was John the Baptist, but either way, the guy really looked the part.

 

[Tepeyac]

Well, the problem is nothing really disrupts the prayerful attitude like splitting language like that.

I don’t think that’s true. The masses on EWTN are done in English and Latin and I find them prayerful. The Papal liturgies are done in multiple languages: Latin, Italian, Greek (Kyrie and sometimes the Gospel) readings and intercessions in English and other languages; and I think they’re prayerful too.

Distractions are inevitable in prayer. The best you can do is prepare your own disposition so that if a distraction does happen you can recollect yourself again.

Having to totally tune out for 10 minutes at a time because you can’t understand anything that is going on is detrimental to BOTH sides.

No one has to has to tune out for 10 minutes at a time. Anyone who attends mass regularly is familiar with the structure of the liturgy and can unite themselves prayerfully with the action at the ambo or the altar. Just like if you attend mass in Latin, but don’t read or speak it fluently, you can still unite yourself to the sacrifice of the mass. Or if you attend a mass where the choir sings elaborate settings of the mass you can still unite youself prayerfully.

I have heard the spanish and english speakers both complain.

I’m sorry to hear that. Are the complaints specific? How has your parish responded to the complaints? Perhaps your parish should do a survey. My parish did that and has done what it can do to meet the needs expressed in the results.

We don’t go to mass to fill the seat, but to have a close and moving experience with God. It seems to me that most people want spanish and english masses, and the events thrown by our church to be accomadating to both languages. That way we can worship in totality, and have fellowship at other events

From your messages I’m under the impression that your parish’s resources are limited. Are your fellow parishioners aware of why more Spanish or English masses aren’t available? Maybe there’s a communication issue between the parish staff and parishioners.

In the meantime I think bilingual resources like the ones I suggested earlier are especially helpful. Resources like the Unidos en Cristo/United in Christ or the Misal del Pueblo/Missal of the People worship programs. When Spanish speakers attend English mass at my parish, or vice-versa, they simply follow along in the language there most comfortable. I haven’t heard complaints. In my experience people make the adjustment pretty easily.

Have you hear from your priest since the incident? Were you able to find out who the man was and why he did what he did?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

The priest said he would address the issue, but offered no further information, except that he agrees there was a distraction.

As far as your previous statements, our church has plenty of opportunities for english masses and spanish masses. The parish is generally happy with this balance. The problem is, there are some outspoken individuals who see it as racial discrimination that there are not more bilingual masses. This is generally because no one wants them, and there aren’t the priests for it.

I am curious. Are you bilingual? Have you been to a bilingual mass? For us, a bilingual mass is nothing but a headache. They generally run 2-3 hours long, and all the while everyone is lost due to dual-language acitivies, and the cultural differences bother both sides. The biggest of which is english speakers frustrated that toddlers are allowed free-reign on the sanctuary. They run around (even up near the altar), scream, talk loudly, play in the aisles, and even stand in the pews while prayers, or even when transubstatiation is taking place. The parents make no effort to stop, since this is acceptable to them, and many can’t hear what is going on. The hispanics are frustrated because the english style is not colourful enough, is bland, and too restrictive.

People are happy with the separated masses. It allows freedom of worship, in their own style, for both sides. Even something as simple as the bass guitar the hispanics use, would FREAK OUT the english speakers. I’ve personally been to all three versions: Spanish, bilingual, and english. Each pure mass has their beauty since everything flows so well and makes sense, while a biliangual mass seems a chaotic mess. I personally don’t get the obsession to mix everything into a homogenized mess. I think there is so much beauty in the diversity, and shouldn’t be watered down into a mixed service.

Oh, and one more thing. The people pushing for the bilingual masses want to keep their hispanic celebrations, but make all english masses on that day bilingual. So some english speakers feel shortchanged, and when some people address these issues to those making the noise, they have generally been put down as racist, intolerant, bigots.