Bilingual masses

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My parish has a small Hispanic population. During the Easter Triduum, our parish celebrates only one mass on Holy Thursday and Good Friday. The mass on these days are bilingual. I understand the reading, the homily, and the prayers of the people need to be said in languages that people understand. But the prayers and the other parts of the mass (including hymns) were alternated between Enlgish and Spanish.

Why on earth would the Litugry committee not decide to replace the mass with Latin?? Honest question. In a bilingual mass- half the Mass will not be said in the vernacular, and half the people at mass will not understand the language. WHy do we not incoporate the gift of unity amongthe Church- and use her official language- espcially in situations where not all worshippers are of the same language or culture???

Can anyone shed some light on this matter?
 
we have bilingual missalettes so it is no problem at all to simply pick it up and read the prayers and readings in English when necessary. Yes, most of us are mildly bothered by the bilingual celebration, but we are in the minority here, so we are happy there when there is an English Mass at all. Actually we do have quite a lot of Latin in our parish, esp. in Lent and Advent. But whatever the priest says in Latin, you are still going to need a missal or missalette if you want to follow it, so what is the big deal? It has taken several years under this pastor for the congregation to learn the Latin. How is your parish doing with that? If they don’t know it well, how will it help?
 
Having adapted to the fact that the Catholic community has becoming very diverse and having grown up with English and Spanish being spoken side by side (though I am not fluent in Spanish), it doesn’t bother me that bilingual masses occur. Honestly, it’s a matter of recognizing that my parish is made up of many people and many of them are currently unable to speak or understand English. I don’t fault them for this. And this is the only time of year that the community as a whole comes together to welcome so many into the Church. Besides, I have gone to many bilingual masses over the years so I’ve adapted to them. And Spanish comes from Latin so by learning some Spanish you are closer to Latin.

Is your parish ready or even willing to learn Latin? And how do you know that people won’t understand the part that is not in their native language? I can’t speak Spanish very well but I can read it and understand the spoken pretty well. And there are missalettes with the English and Spanish.

You sound like someone who wants the world to be perfectly ordered and to go your way. Well, it’s not about you and you just have to pray for understanding that the pastor thought it wise to incorporate the whole parish community instead of neglecting parts of it.
 
Maybe I am guilty of wanting things my way- but I don’t understand the rationale of not embracing the Church’s gift of a universal language. One of the beautiful things regarding the Catholic Church is its unity. Why not embrace the one thing thing that we all have in common as Catholics…the LATIN liturgy???
 
campion said:
Maybe I am guilty of wanting things my way- but I don’t understand the rationale of not embracing the Church’s gift of a universal language. One of the beautiful things regarding the Catholic Church is its unity. Why not embrace the one thing thing that we all have in common as Catholics…the LATIN liturgy???
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That’s not correct. The Roman or Latin Church is only one of the 23 Churches that make up The Catholic Church and the others have never used latin.
 
OP, you are right, as Latin Catholics we have the Latin Liturgy in common which means all the prayers etc. are in common so when attending a Mass in French (I have done this) I can follow along, when attending a Mass in Dutch (done this too) I can follow along, the same with attending a Mass in Spanish(done this multiple times) - I can follow along. The first two instances of attending a Mass in the vernacular in a country where English was not spoken, I was a pre-teen and was still able to follow along. The Spanish Mass I have attended have been either bi-lingual or entirely in Spanish I was an adult and like puzzleannie, I live in a part of the US where Spanish is quite common.

It is not the language that necessarily gives us Latin Catholics something in common, it is the Liturgy itself. Now if I were to attend a Marian Rite Mass (one in communion with Rome) in English, I would have difficulties following along but only because it is not the Liturgy I know.

Now of course a problem arises when you get to a Parish where the Priest and/or Liturgists decide not to follow the GIRM! I have troubles at Parishes like that even when they are in English, my native tongue!

Brenda V.
 
campion said:
Why on earth would the Litugry committee not decide to replace the mass with Latin?? Honest question. In a bilingual mass- half the Mass will not be said in the vernacular, and half the people at mass will not understand the language. WHy do we not incoporate the gift of unity amongthe Church- and use her official language- espcially in situations where not all worshippers are of the same language or culture???

Can anyone shed some light on this matter?
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It is a good question. However, you said as if everybody would understand Latin. If half of your church did not understand the other language, how many people do you think will not understand the language? More than half perhaps? 🙂
 
campion said:
Why not embrace the one thing thing that we all have in common as Catholics…the LATIN liturgy???
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Honestly, I think you are just wanting your own way without realizing how difficult it would be for many Catholics in the whole wide world.

Are you willing to go to the third world countries, to the mountains and teach the people there how to learn Latin so that we all can have mass in Latin and we all can understand what it is said during the mass? Or you prefer those who can’t understand Latin just to go to mass and not understand what the mass is said?
 
My family and I attended the Easter Vigil at our local parish last night. I didn’t realize it was a Bilingual Mass until we entered the Church.

It was a disaster on several levels. The priest and choir rewrote the Exultet, wrote their own responsorial psalm (which they used over and over again between the readings), butchered the Litany of the Saints (I swear they created several saints on the spot so that all the baptismal candidates would feel included), created their own rituals during the Mass (they had the entire congregation come up and dip their fingers in the Holy Water near the altar and make the sign of the cross), and the less said about the music in general the better. It was also the longest Vigil Mass I’ve ever attended, We left after 2 hours and 45 minutes, just after communion (my youngest was falling asleep by then).

The bilingual aspect was one of the most troublesome. Let me start by saying I have nothing against Spanish Masses. But in my opinion, Bilingual Masses are inherently discriminatory against English speakers. Most Hispanics that I’ve met can speak or at least understand English. However, most English speakers do not understand Spanish. So a Bilingual Englishl/Spanish Mass is one in which the Spanish speakers can understand completely but the English speakers are shut out of half the Mass.

After Vatican II, the Church moved away from Latin to the venacular so that the people could “understand” what was going on. We now seem to be regressing. At this point, I say bring back the Latin, at least for situations in which different language groups want to worship together. At the very least, we could all share in the beauty of the Gregorian chants.
 
This Lent (my first around Catholics) I’ve experienced bilingual Stations of the Cross, penance service, and the Holy Thursday service. The priest is bilingual and the way they do the bulletin is to have a translation in the “other” language for whatever is spoken in one language. The homily was done in both languages. The Mass being the Mass, it doesn’t take much to figure out what is going on most of the time.

In this parish there are a LOT of people who do not speak English. But there are also a lot of people who don’t have any Spanish, either.

The parish bulletin is bi-lingual.

Some of the services, such as Easter vigil, have been English-only. I’ve tried to imagine what it would be like to go through a service where you have no English.

More of a problem than the language is the culture. The Anglos are more restrained, less expressive if you will. The Hispanics are fervent, demonstrably Marian, and were by far the first to hit the kneelers and the floor at Adoration. The intensity with which they pray is something to remember as well. They did a dance at the Feast of Our Lady of Guadelupe that seems to have caused some concern. On the other hand the St.Joseph table was an entirely Anglo event.
 
puzzleannie said:
we have bilingual missalettes so it is no problem at all to simply pick it up and read the prayers and readings in English when necessary. Yes, most of us are mildly bothered by the bilingual celebration, but we are in the minority here, so we are happy there when there is an English Mass at all. Actually we do have quite a lot of Latin in our parish, esp. in Lent and Advent. But whatever the priest says in Latin, you are still going to need a missal or missalette if you want to follow it, so what is the big deal? It has taken several years under this pastor for the congregation to learn the Latin. How is your parish doing with that? If they don’t know it well, how will it help?
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I agree with annie…our parish is split almost down the middle between native English speakers and native Spanish speakers. Latin would ean we’d all be lost for at least a period of time during the transition. The Vigil last night had half the readings in Spanish, English homily, mostly Spanish music, English used during the baptisms and confirmations. We all had the readings in both languages in front of us in the Missalettes. There was a “liturgy aid” with Spanish lyrics and responses printed up. I was able to follow everything, and I have only a passing knowledge of Houstonian “Spanglish”.

The vernacular around here is not English. It’s whatever that particular person’s native language happens to be. If vernacular is the language of the people…it’s a 50-50 split at my parish.

I have no issue with Latin or the TLM, and it would be great to have wider access to that liturgy in our country. But I don’t think te increasing use of Spanish in our country has much to do with the arguments for Latin Masses.
 
Robert_Burke said:
It was a disaster on several levels. The priest and choir rewrote the Exultet, wrote their own responsorial psalm (which they used over and over again between the readings), butchered the Litany of the Saints (I swear they created several saints on the spot so that all the baptismal candidates would feel included), created their own rituals during the Mass (they had the entire congregation come up and dip their fingers in the Holy Water near the altar and make the sign of the cross),
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all those practices are permitted, with the exception of the Exultet being rewritten. There are a couple of psalms that can be used throughout, also there is a choice of psalms. The litany of the saints can include the names of those being baptized, and yes in some places it is the custom to invite people to come to the water (although usually this invitation is after Mass). You know the Vigil will be very long, esp. if there are baptisms, so prudence would dictate bringing small children to another Easter Mass.
I
have nothing against Spanish Masses. But in my opinion, Bilingual Masses are inherently discriminatory against English speakers.
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it is equally discriminatory against Spanish speakers, or those who speak another language entirely, such as the substantial Filipino, Vietnamese, Korean and other populations that are growing here.
sorry I still can’t make this quote wrap feature work right.

we have gradually been adding more Latin, routinely chant Sanctus, Agnus Dei, responses, Our Father etc. and are learning more all the time. Vigil was bilingual, as are all our Holy Week and Holy Day Masses, which is only right when there is only one service for the day. Actually, it was tri-lingual, since everything that could be in Latin was, and it was the readings, psalms and hymns that varied between English and Spanish, plus as usual the priest went back and forth with the Eucharistic prayer etc.
 
campion said:
My parish has a small Hispanic population. During the Easter Triduum, our parish celebrates only one mass on Holy Thursday and Good Friday. The mass on these days are bilingual. I understand the reading, the homily, and the prayers of the people need to be said in languages that people understand. But the prayers and the other parts of the mass (including hymns) were alternated between Enlgish and Spanish.

Why on earth would the Litugry committee not decide to replace the mass with Latin?? Honest question. In a bilingual mass- half the Mass will not be said in the vernacular, and half the people at mass will not understand the language. WHy do we not incoporate the gift of unity amongthe Church- and use her official language- espcially in situations where not all worshippers are of the same language or culture???

Can anyone shed some light on this matter?
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I don’t mind Spanish liturgies- the translation is more faithful to the Latin. I would rather them be in Latin, and give everyone something to follow along in. Switching back and forth between two or more languages (except to do parts of the ordinary in Latin- and Greek for the Kyrie) is distracting.
 
Pacbox said:
You sound like someone who wants the world to be perfectly ordered and to go your way. Well, it’s not about you and you just have to pray for understanding that the pastor thought it wise to incorporate the whole parish community instead of neglecting parts of it.
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Pax tecum!

That comes across as quite insulting and unnecessary

In Christ,
Rand
.
 
Pax vobiscum!

A reminder to those who always argue against Latin in the Mass. Vatican II says that LATIN IS SUPPOSED TO BE USED in the Mass. The council and subsequent popes and their writings are blindingly clear on that point. Latin is the official language of the Latin Rite of the Church and it should be used. Also, in the pope’s recent document on the Eucharist, he says that when there is a large international gathering at Mass (like one where there is many Spanish and English speakers), Latin should be used. That is what the Church says…and what the Church says is completely ignored by 90% of American Catholics who only want their all-vernacular Mass all the time.

In Christ,
Rand
 
When I visited the Religious Shrines in France, the Masses were in French. I wonder why they didn’t have bilingual Masses to accommodate the visitors? 🙂

Of course I’m being sarcastic. It seems ridiculous that people moving into an english speaking nation, would expect to have Mass in their own language. But then,common sense left this nation about 40 years ago.

Jim
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Also, in the pope’s recent document on the Eucharist, he says that when there is a large international gathering at Mass (like one where there is many Spanish and English speakers), Latin should be used. That is what the Church says…and what the Church says is completely ignored by 90% of American Catholics who only want their all-vernacular Mass all the time.
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I noticed he was using Latin during the Good Friday service. That made me happy.
 
PatienceAndLove said:
Really? Can you elaborate?
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Apparently, south of the border, there are groups of dancers that dedicate themselves to dancing in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe. My understanding is that this is a centuries old ritual that has its roots in the native culture. We have a group like this at our church and they always perform the traditional dance on the second Sunday of December.
 
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