Bilingual masses

[Truthstalker]

Really? Can you elaborate?

Not sure what you mean and whether it applies to this thread.

There was a picture in the parish newsletter of the Mexican dancers, in costumes that looked Aztec-like to me, and a reference to the drums they had had at the Mass. The pastor’s comment in the article was along the lines that it was sad that some in the parish had had difficulty appreciating multiculturalism and their expression of their faith. I missed the service and I think it would have freaked me out to have Indian dancers and Indian drums at a church service.

Some of the songs that have been sung in Spanish have had a beat or melody that is very south of the Border - beautiful songs, with haunting melodies, some of them, but not driven by a North American cultural heritage. The Mass is new to me and I don’t have a sense as to what music is organically Catholic and what belongs and what doesn’t. This sense may be part of what is throwing people: certain music, people feel, belongs at Mass. Other styles don’t, and this can be culturally based.

I went to the incensing of the St.Joseph’s Table because I had no idea as to what it was, looked around and realized that none of the very Mexican looking people of the parish were there. I can’t go any further with this, because there were few at that Mass (this was Saturday and the Spanish Mass is on Sunday) and so it wasn’t really all that indicative. But the Table is Sicilian in background, not Mexican, and I picked up on their absence.

A friend of mine told me years ago about a new priest who outlawed the ringing of the bell during the Mass, and how this almost split the parish, with people very angry on both sides of the issue. It’s a great deal about what you are used to, and I think that ties back into the issue of bilingual Masses.

You probably don’t think twice about the fact a Mass can have English, Greek and Latin in it. You are used to it. But throw part of it in it another language, and it’s a problem. One upon a time the church service was all in Aramaic, and there were these Greeks who wanted a service in their language…Once upon a time the church was all in Greek, and there were all these Latins who wanted Mass in their own language…This is not a new problem.

 

[hazmatdude]

I know this thread started in July 2004 and that the last entry was on 3-13-07 but I thought I would add my comments anyway.

After WWII when Americans began flocking to Europe the term “Ugly American” came into vogue. It represented the idea of what Europeans thought Americans were. The big difference is that the “Ugly American” went home when their vacation ended.

In the last 25 years the concept of diversity is our strength and welcome the stranger has taken hold in our Church. For our kindness and understanding and acceptance we have had this bilingual mass mess forced on English speakers of all races every Christmas, Easter and Holy Day ostensibly because it is easier on our overworked priests. But every Sunday in thousands of parishes across America these same priests have mass schedules in both the vernacular of the country and a foreign language.

We have English language masses canceled so that the Guadalupean’a can celebrate and process for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Of course it is in a foreign language that most Americans don’t understand so they don’t go and it is held exclusively for the immigrants of a particular persuasion.

We have the Directors of the Hispanic Charismatic Renewal (CR) hosting events exclusively in a foreign language and there is no director or English CR event to be found anywhere.

We have Wednesday night communion services taken over by raucous Charismatics speaking a foreign language who disrupt all other activities in the church hall or attached class rooms forcing everyone to retreat to other locations or reschedule their classes to another night.

Or how about this one where an illegal alien who was deported and returned illegally a second time is introduced by the Pastor to the congregation as some type of prodigal son believe it or not. The law abiding citizens there were quietly disgusted while the sympathizers applauded wildly. I was there. I saw this with my own eyes and couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

What puzzles me most is why our Bishop’s, Priests and Deacon’s go to such an extreme to welcome the stranger instead of helping him integrate into the American society. Seems like they are working overtime to divide Catholics into two camps and the nation as well. Is there any Diocese or parish in America that host English classes. How sad but this is what happens when they blur the distinction between legal and illegal to welcome the stranger.

 

[puzzleannie]

My The priest and choir rewrote the Exultet, wrote their own responsorial psalm (which they used over and over again between the readings), butchered the Litany of the Saints (I swear they created several saints on the spot so that all the baptismal candidates would feel included), created their own rituals during the Mass (they had the entire congregation come up and dip their fingers in the Holy Water near the altar and make the sign of the cross), and the less said about the music in general the better. It .

all these are part of the prescribed rites for RCIA, the holy water is optional, some parishes have small bottles prepared to take home after Mass, or some invite parishioners to approach the font after Mass. There are several alternate resonsorial psalms that can be used, esp. some that are written bilingually. Yes the litany of the saints should include the names of the patrons of those being baptized.

get over it, this entire mentality of “the Mass is about insuring my comfort level” instead of “the Mass is the entire people of God participating in Christ’s one sacrifice”

Actually there is only supposed to be one Sunday celebration for an entire parish. The alternate Mass times, and languages when needed, is a concession to modern life, but not the way liturgy is meant to be.

 

[Brendan]

When I visited the Religious Shrines in France, the Masses were in French. I wonder why they didn’t have bilingual Masses to accommodate the visitors?
Jim

No, a bilingual Mass would have been inappropriate. having a Latin Mass would the the correct thing to do.

 

[VociMike]

That’s not correct. The Roman or Latin Church is only one of the 23 Churches that make up The Catholic Church and the others have never used latin.

That’s really not the issue here. It is clear that this particular discussion is about a Roman rite parish, using the Roman rite Missal.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<>

There is no mass on Good Friday in the Latin Church.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<Yes, most of us are mildly bothered by the bilingual celebration, but we are in the minority here,>>

If “most” of you are bothered, how can you be “in the minority”?

“MOST” implies being in the majority.

 

[mystified]

My primary language is English, but for most of my life since Latin was set aside, I have attended Mass in my second language, Spanish, and was an usher for the Spanish-language Mass for two decades. One Sunday, a lady entered and I handed her a missalette. She was ver upset that it was in Spanish and demanded that the Mass be done that day in her native tongue, Chinese, which none of our priests or deacons spoke.
That parish did have multilingual services sometimes, English, Spanish, Vietnamese and Tagalog, the latter for a handful of families from the Phillipines.
As for dancers in México, in my community we have a group of Guadalupana dancers who appear at celebrations in parishes and at rural chapels, but do their dancing only outside.
In full regalia, feathers, beads, brightly colored clothing and tennis shoes(!) they attend Mass and receive Communion very reverently, with no dancing or drums inside the church.

 

[benedictgal]

We’ve had some great successes and some major disasters with Bilingual masses. The big problem with the disasters was when the ugly head of creativity reared itself. One particular disaster happened during the Triduum, where a lector proclaimed the first reading in English and then, 4/5 the way down, she muffled and then a second lector proclaimed the same reading in Spanish. The same thing happened for the epistle. Luckily, good judgment kept the Gospel from suffering the same fate. The same practice, however, was maintained for Good Friday. It gave many of us a headache, especially when both languages were read at the same time.

One thing about bilingual masses (whether it’s English/Spanish, English/German; Spanish/Italian–whatever your parish’s blend is) to remember is that the Eucharistic Prayer cannot be broken up into two languages. It must be done entirely in one language. In Rome, the rule of thumb is to use Latin (as many posters have already indicated). Because the Eucharistic Prayer (from the preface to the Great Amen) is one prayer, it should be done in one language. In multi-lingual Masses, Latin should be used, as per the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy and Sacramentum Caritatis

Regarding the “matachines” that some of you have posted about, this group performs an annual dance in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The reason they appear Aztec is because this particular civilization is indigenous to Mexico. In fact, it was to them that Our Lady of Guadalupe first appeared. Typically, they dance prior to the Mass and afterwards, but, not during. They also dance during posadas.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

It is not the language that necessarily gives us Latin Catholics something in common, it is the Liturgy itself. Now if I were to attend a Marian Rite Mass (one in communion with Rome) in English, I would have difficulties following along but only because it is not the Liturgy I know.

I’m not going to argue that the Latin language is the marker of unity among Latin Catholics, but I did want to correct your assertion that it is the rite, not the language, that unites our church. Our church is somewhat unique among churches in that while normally we can take a particular rite and then see which churches adhere to it, in the case of the Latin Church we take the church and then see which rites belong to it. We, out of all the churches, are designated by our language. Historically there has been incredible diversity among the liturgical usages of the Roman Rite - so diverse that they are commonly referred to as separate rites even when “use” is technically more accurate - and even today we can see that the Latin Church has a smattering of Ambrosian, Mozarabic (Toledan), Dominican, and Carmelite liturgies. While most of these developed from the Roman Rite and were at any rate strongly influenced thereby, it’s not inaccurate to say that it is the language that unites Latin Catholics, and not necessarily the particular rite/use by which they worship.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

As for bilingual Masses, I’ve never liked them. I especially hate the practice, used even by the Vatican, of conducting the general intercessions in a different language (and thus with a parade of bit readers) for each petition. If you ask me, bilingual Masses will force most heads into a missal anyway, so if they’re going to be reading, why not have them worship in the language they all (should) hold in common and in which they were supposed to be formed for participation at Mass?

 

[Pacbox]

I have been to bilingual Masses that have been done well and I have been to bilingual Masses done poorly. Unfortunately, as of late, I have had to deal with the really poor ones. I belong to a one priest parish, who has basically at this point given up on learning or practicing Spanish. Why, I don’t know. So when he does a bilingual Mass it is not something I want to sit through anymore. I want the Mass not some bad Spanish class presentation which is what is seems like sometimes. Sitting through a Mass said by him is getting to be a bit of an issue anyways but that is a whole other bale of hay.

While I used to be accomodating for bilingual Masses, I’ve changed my mind. The damage being done to the liturgy is too much to put up with bilingual Masses. At least at my parish. I will qualify it with that statement since that’s the only parish I can really speak of.

While I have never been to Mass in Latin, I do not think it is difficult to learn (I’ve learned quite a few words in my Criminal Justice studies) and wish that a good portion of the Mass (Liturgy of the Eucharist) would be said in Latin. I’m not quite ready for the TLM. But then if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

 

[rbrooks]

Hi all. I am a bit of a late commer to the thread, but I had my first experience with a bilingual mass and it will be my last. Last night for all Saints, my wife and our 5 children and I, even my in-laws, load up and head for Mass. We arrive and many of the hispanics in our community are also there. No problem so far. Just after the opening prayer, our priest starts over in spanish. This continued and I couldn’t stand it any longer, we left. Please no judges here, I know, not the best thing to do. Had anything been said about it being bilingual, I would have went to another mass in the first place. It may be a common thing, but we are new to this parish and did not know. I will be more vigilant in the future regarding this.

Just want to make a point here. Having served in the military, as a police officer and now for DoD, I am completely against the bilingual mass for several reasons. Not just because I am a vet of 2 wars or was a cop. I only say this because of the experiences I have gained through my service.

First of all, the venacular here is english not spanish. If there is a need for a spanish mass, offer one seperate from the others. (Our parish does) Not a bilingual mass where it is confusing to many.

Last time I checked, we live in the United States and our constitution was written in English.

Why are you in this country and have failed to learn the language? Most immigrants from anywhere else make it the first thing on the aggenda. I have been to Russian Orthadox Masses that were said in English, with the majority of the people being native Russians. Respect issue here.

Our forefathers and now our sons and brothers, sisters and daughters fight for America, not anyone else in America illegally. Our blood has been shed for our land and it is ours. Our language is English, please have the respect to learn OUR language and not force us to cater to you. It is a slap in the face to all that have paid the price for this land you now are on.

Please come, prosper, take advantage of the opportunities we offer in America. All we ask is that you do it legally and in our language.

I know some will find my use of words a bit strong, but please understand, it seems that the social justice crowd has gotten out of controll when it somes to the compromises that we have made in our mass. It is also my experience that the ones who do not speak english are not here legally, so for the bleeding hearts who want to cut me down, the spanish only speakers have already broken the law since day one they were here. I have no sympathy for that, nor will my opinion be changed regarding it. The facts are facts.

When attending Mass, we need to be there body mind and spirit. The chain is broke when our mind is waiting for the english part again. So how can we properly concentrate and prepare ourselves to recieve the Holy Eucharist when we are wondering what is being said? I don’t know the jedi mind trick for blocking out the fact that a white priest is butchering another language durring the course of the most Holy event on earth.

I agree with those who say bring in the Latin. If there is need for a mass where all can follow, do it in the universal language of the universal Church. That’s what it is there for, use it! Not that my latin is any better than my spanish, but it is one language and not 2 or 1.5 at best.

So, I will now step down from the soap box and possibly remain to watch the fall out.

 

[mystified]

I’m certainly glad rbrooks didn’t happen into an Eastern Rite Catholic Church, or a TLM. Not much English in those, either.
It is the Mass. Jesus Christ is really present on the altar, regardless of the language(s) being spoken. That’s what is important.

 

[rbrooks]

I’m certainly glad rbrooks didn’t happen into an Eastern Rite Catholic Church, or a TLM. Not much English in those, either.
It is the Mass. Jesus Christ is really present on the altar, regardless of the language(s) being spoken. That’s what is important.

No argument there, but again, how much are we willing to compromise? When is enough, enough?

Don’t get me wrong, my original post may seem a bit emotional or extreme, that is not the intent. My intent is to get people thinking. I am not racist by any stretch of the imagination. I welcome immigration whole heartedly, it is what keeps our country rolling economically. What I am saying, is if people migrated to this country with the intent of bettering themselves, would there be a need for a bilingual mass? Wouldn’t it be a grand first improvement for them to learn the language and what better way than a familiar setting like mass to practice comprehension?

 

[hazmatdude]

After “rbrooks” 11-02 message and how “mystified” obviously misread what he was saying with her mildly condescending remark I’m going to jump in here again.

rbrooks stated very accurately what the problem is but just take a minute to look at the third to the last paragraph of his message. The bilingual mass regardless of what language you speak is a major distraction.

Unfortunately we now have a whole group of immigrants including 20-25M illegally here who believe we should accept them without condition as they work to impose their language and culture on America. Their disrespect for our American culture is exacerbated by the bilingual mass mess. You who disagree may not like it but compose yourselves before you lash out emotionally.

I would never move to your country and demand that you to let my culture replace yours nor would I expect a priest to hold mass in my language because I happen to be occupying a space in a pew in a church in your country. That would be very rude and insensitive just as it is very rude and insensitive for you to demand it here.

Unfortunately, the bilingual mass mess is reminiscent of the experimentation foisted on the unsuspecting American laity after Vatican II. The Bishops and Priests of the time, “in the spirit of Vatican II” rejected the use of Latin in the New Mass contrary to what "Rand Al’Thor alleged in his 4-08 message. In that same “spirit” many removed the blessed sacrament from prominence, took statues from our Churches and all but destroyed the devotional life of American Catholics. Just look at the stark, Protestant-like architecture of our churches since the 60’s. The result was millions stopped being active Catholics or left the Church all together and now many of these very same experimenter’s are now our Bishop’s. Consequently they do nothing to reach out to the poor lost sheep they drove away just like they fail to implement programs that would help new (legal) immigrants to integrate into the American family. Have you ever heard a Bishop, Priest or Deacon encourage anyone to learn English? No because that would be insensitive. Or how about hosting a basic English language class. No they are too busy dividing us by ethnicity and language.

Vatican II intended a New Mass to be very different from what we get every Sunday in America. Tune into EWTN one day and you will get about as close as you will see. Unfortunately the very same experimenter’s openly criticizing EWTN for its orthodoxy.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**This thread is entitled:

Bilingual Masses – those wishing to make political hay or discuss an assortment of other issues would be better served by posting in appropriate threads in the appropriate forums.

Further posts deviating from the topic will close the thread**

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Pax vobiscum!

A reminder to those who always argue against Latin in the Mass. Vatican II says that LATIN IS SUPPOSED TO BE USED in the Mass. The council and subsequent popes and their writings are blindingly clear on that point. Latin is the official language of the Latin Rite of the Church and it should be used. Also, in the pope’s recent document on the Eucharist, he says that when there is a large international gathering at Mass (like one where there is many Spanish and English speakers), Latin should be used. That is what the Church says…and what the Church says is completely ignored by 90% of American Catholics who only want their all-vernacular Mass all the time.

In Christ,
Rand

Rand:

The extent of the use of the vernacular in the Mass was allowed by Pope Paul VI to be determined by each national bishops’ conference. The conferences’ decisions had to be ratified by the Holy See. Thus, the all-vernaular Mass exists because the Holy See permits it to exist. So “should” really is a subjective term (one is free to believe it or not), given that the amount of vernacular that is used is permitted by the competant authority.

Regards,
JKirk

 

[pnewton]

I fail to see the logic in resorting to Latin if the reason is lack of understanding in the vernacular. It is almost the attitude that if I can’t understand, then no one else should be able to understand. It also does not resolve the issue of the homily and what language should be used. While I know Latin is the universal language of the Church, the fact remains that at this point in history few people understand it.

I do not enjoy the bilingual Masses I have to attend. However, I remind myself that the Mass is not about me. It is healthy for us to come together a few times a year as one community and sacrifice for each other. I’m not going to get all liberal here and talk about the communal aspect of the Mass being primary. However, let us not ignore it entirely.

 

[Rabbititus]

I fail to see the logic in resorting to Latin if the reason is lack of understanding in the vernacular. It is almost the attitude that if I can’t understand, then no one else should be able to understand. It also does not resolve the issue of the homily and what language should be used. While I know Latin is the universal language of the Church, the fact remains that at this point in history few people understand it.

I think the idea is that if most people had been taught to follow the ordinary of Mass in Latin, then everyone would be able to understand - Perhaps they wouldn’t understand in the same way they would an entirely vernacular mass, but certainly more than if half the mass were in a language they had absolutely no familiarity with. That noone has bothered to teach any of the basic ordinary or prayers in Latin doesn’t mean we should abandon the language of the church competely when it could have a potentially wonderful unifying effect if applied the way Vatican II had wanted.