Bill Maher vs Ben Affleck on the problem with Islam

[meltzerboy]

Of course, but if you were teaching school in Iran, and their were no girls in your class and they found out you were Jewish and executed you, your anecdotal perspective would change right.

So, if you looked at Islam by country you would find a very large number who are more like Iran than American Muslims.

I agree my attitude might very well change before my execution!

I’m not saying Muslims, even if a majority, always practice their religion in the right way. We are not talking about individuals here, but the religion of Islam. Christians and Jews have also been known to distort their religion’s teachings but the religion itself can still stand for something worthwhile.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I agree my attitude might very well change before my execution!

I’m not saying Muslims, even if a majority, always practice their religion in the right way. We are not talking about individuals here, but the religion of Islam. Christians and Jews have also been known to distort their religion’s teachings but the religion itself can still stand for something worthwhile.

The problem with that is who defines what islam is?

Us looking from the outside?

The Americanized muslims?

The caliphate a in the Middle East?

History?

How the majority practice it?

I’d say the only necessary and practical definition is the final 3.

 

[meltzerboy]

The problem with that is who defines what islam is?

Us looking from the outside?

The Americanized muslims?

The caliphate a in the Middle East?

History?

How the majority practice it?

I’d say the only necessary and practical definition is the final 3.

One can ask the same question about Judaism. We have no central authority except the Law and its various rabbinical interpretations. Certainly it would not and should not be outsiders who define the tenets of another religion unless perhaps they are dedicated scholars of that religion.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I’m not saying Muslims, even if a majority, always practice their religion in the right way. We are not talking about individuals here, but the religion of Islam. Christians and Jews have also been known to distort their religion’s teachings but the religion itself can still stand for something worthwhile.

So what is the real Islam? Who decides? American people? That’s laughable, I’m sorry.

And why is it always assumed that the true nature of religion is always peaceful and inherently benevolent to others? There is no reason to assume that. The problem is that most westerners outside of South/Central Europe are completely ignorant of history regarding the Muslims, and have no clue on what was happening with the Muslim expansion since the 7th century. They wiped out non-Muslim cultures in north Africa and the eastern Mediterranean and tried to do the same with Europe, that’s what happened.

(The anniversary of the battle of Lepanto was celebrated yesterday, for those of you curious enough to learn about that crucial moment for the western world.)

 

[andrewstx]

What really bothers me is the fact that before he decided to be Atheist, Maher came from a Jewish-Catholic mixed marriage. His Mother is Jewish which technically makes Maher Jewish himself!

 

[eddie_too]

what are the universal tenets of islam? on what does every muslim agree? to whom do all muslims turn for the true and complete teachings of mohammed?

if I may answer myself, so far as I am aware there are no universal tenets of islam. there is nothing upon which all muslims agree. there is no one for muslims to turn to for the true and complete teachings of islam.

islam in this sense is very similar to protestant Christianity. it takes its identify from the written word, the Koran. as is self-evident to all but the most obtuse, the written word is undeniably and unchangeably more often a source of confusion and division than of clarity and unity.

islam, as is protestant christanity, is more like a modern tower of babel than it is a monolithic belief system.

so, I guess I agree more with Affleck. it is inaccurate to paint islam with a broad brush. on the other hand, it is a disservice to everyone not to speak the truth to the myriad of groups who proclaim themselves followers of mohammed.

in my opinion, islam will never be monolithic and will always be susceptible to having self-proclaimed adherents that teach and practice atrocities and oppression. that is its nature. confusion and division are its natural children.

 

[meltzerboy]

What really bothers me is the fact that before he decided to be Atheist, Maher came from a Jewish-Catholic mixed marriage. His Mother is Jewish which technically makes Maher Jewish himself!

I wonder if mixed (religion) marriages result in more atheists? Let’s ask Katie Couric (Jewish mother) and Matt Lauer (Jewish father) as well. In my experience (warning: anecdotal evidence), it seems to be the case. But not always of course. One would think it also results in more religious tolerance but I suppose not in Bill Maher’s case.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I wonder if mixed (religion) marriages result in more atheists? Let’s ask Katie Couric (Jewish mother) and Matt Lauer (Jewish father) as well. In my experience (warning: anecdotal evidence), it seems to be the case. But not always of course. One would think it also results in more religious tolerance but I suppose not in Bill Maher’s case.

Then we have tom cruise - scientologist and 2 ex-wives who were both Catholic. Wonder what religion their children will choose.

 

[SteveVH]

Who really cares what either of these guys think? I wouldn’t watch Bill Maher if you paid me and Ben Affleck’s opinion is of no interest to me at all.

 

[Darryl1958]

It would be wrong, I think, to focus on the person of Bill Maher, rather than the overall argument of Bill Maher.

There is much in his character that rubs many of us the wrong way. He is anti-Catholic and anti-religon. Nevertheless, his argument against his fellow liberals is an astute one. It matters not a wit what the majority of Muslims believe. It matters not a wit how many Muslims are sitting sweet and pretty in the front of the class.
When it comes to what is happening to all people who live in Islamic majority countries is that all the people within those societies, from Afghanistan to Libya, are subjected to illiberal laws that ought to be an affront to liberals. What is happening is that when Muslims immigrate to Western liberal democracies, is that the homor killings and the illiberal behavior come with them, and the oppression continues.

It all started out a couple of shows back with his talk about Hirsi Ali. She ought to be a liberal icon and a heroine for oppressed people everywhere. Instead she is shunned by liberals and lauded by American conservatives.

A liberal ideology that cannot stand in solidarity with Hirsi Ali against those who would oppress here is a liberal ideology that has simply lost its way.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I wonder if mixed (religion) marriages result in more atheists? Let’s ask Katie Couric (Jewish mother) and Matt Lauer (Jewish father) as well. In my experience (warning: anecdotal evidence), it seems to be the case. But not always of course. One would think it also results in more religious tolerance but I suppose not in Bill Maher’s case.

IT seems that many secular Jews, turn out to be atheist, or at least practical atheists…I am not sure why that is, but I believe it is more than a generalization.

 

[Sceptical_John]

It would be wrong, I think, to focus on the person of Bill Maher, rather than the overall argument of Bill Maher.

There is much in his character that rubs many of us the wrong way. He is anti-Catholic and anti-religon. Nevertheless, his argument against his fellow liberals is an astute one. It matters not a wit what the majority of Muslims believe. It matters not a wit how many Muslims are sitting sweet and pretty in the front of the class.
When it comes to what is happening to all people who live in Islamic majority countries is that all the people within those societies, from Afghanistan to Libya, are subjected to illiberal laws that ought to be an affront to liberals. What is happening is that when Muslims immigrate to Western liberal democracies, is that the homor killings and the illiberal behavior come with them, and the oppression continues.

It all started out a couple of shows back with his talk about Hirsi Ali. She ought to be a liberal icon and a heroine for oppressed people everywhere. Instead she is shunned by liberals and lauded by American conservatives.

A liberal ideology that cannot stand in solidarity with Hirsi Ali against those who would oppress here is a liberal ideology that has simply lost its way.

You said it far better than I could!

This is a right-wing uk pundit I have much admiration for talking to a newscast in Canada. Worth watching.

sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/search/all/source/the-source/ldquoislamophiliardquo-the-love-of-islam-from-leaders-around-the-world/3801691484001

 

[Sceptical_John]

IT seems that many secular Jews, turn out to be atheist, or at least practical atheists…I am not sure why that is, but I believe it is more than a generalization.

There is a little evidence out there to back this up but certainly nothing conclusive. In part put it down to Jewish people are more likely to be college educated.

(please note I’m not saying smarter or anything like that just more educated!)

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

There is a little evidence out there to back this up but certainly nothing conclusive. In part put it down to Jewish people are more likely to be college educated.

(please note I’m not saying smarter or anything like that just more educated!)

Are you suggesting that college education leads to atheism? So it is either a) educated people are atheists because of their intelligence, or b)college brainwashes people into atheism. Which one is it?

 

[Sceptical_John]

Are you suggesting that college education leads to atheism? So it is either a) educated people are atheists because of their intelligence, or b)college brainwashes people into atheism. Which one is it?

I’d say college education lead to better critical thinking skills. Like I said there is far from conclusive proof but there have been a lot of studies.

Again I wouldn’t imply intelligence as you parents probably have as much influence about whether you go to college as your intelligence.

patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/08/12/researchers-aggregate-63-studies-and-find-significant-negative-association-between-intelligence-and-religiosity/

ps I’m an uneducated atheist so I blow my own theory out of the water haha

 

[manualman]

Are you suggesting that college education leads to atheism? So it is either a) educated people are atheists because of their intelligence, or b)college brainwashes people into atheism. Which one is it?

I’d say college education is where people are more likely to be exposed to the philosophies of Marx, Freud and Nietzsche, which does indeed tend to push them more towards suspicion of everything but their own inner urges than those NOT exposed to those philosophies. Those three guys seem to me to have introduced the most civilization-destroying ideas since Martin Luther. Outrageous claim? Consider the fact that extremely few people educated in the ideas of those three guys goes on to have enough children to even replace themselves (2.1 kids per couple) in the long term. Illuminating.

The problem with Islam is, frankly, Muhammed. How can you reform a religion that fundamentally reveres a murderous, traitorous, polygamous, genocidal warlord as God’s most perfect example of Islamic virtue?

 

[Havard]

I agree with Ben Affleck on this issue. Terrorists are not representative of any religion, and they come in all forms: Christian IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland, Jewish terrorist supporters of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, Muslim members of terrorist organizations such as ISIS and Al Qaeda, etc.

Hey now, there’s no comparing the IRA with ISIS and its ilk. With the IRA, there was no issue of religious doctrine as a cause of the troubles or as a concern among them. There was no extremist cleric proclaiming a different or more extreme version of Catholicism. No one talked about converting or killing Protestants, at least not as such. Partisans defined themselves on nationalist lines: Nationalists, Republicans, Loyalists, Unionists, etc. Religion was totally absent from the charter of the IRA from the beginning, and some IRA factions were straight up Marxist. And not only was there no religious motive, members were excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and violence was universally denounced by clergy on both sides. How one could compare the IRA to a clearly religious involvement… where mullahs and clerics are actively involved and using places of worship to spread a clearly religious-based message… I just cannot fathom.

 

[abucs]

I agree with Ben Affleck on this issue. Terrorists are not representative of any religion, and they come in all forms: Christian IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland, Jewish terrorist supporters of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, Muslim members of terrorist organizations such as ISIS and Al Qaeda, etc.

I think it is also important to add that the IRA were a strongly leaning Marxist group who had their run ins with the Church. There are cases of priests refusing to give sacraments to members and when Pope JP2 visited Ireland he made an address for the ‘men of violence’ to put down their guns and solve disagreements peacefully following the example of Jesus.

Their political group Sinn Fein are also very ‘progressive’ on social issues in direct conflict with the Church.

 

[tomarin]

I’m not sure what it is that causes people to so quickly ignore a constitution that calls for the subjugation and discrimination of Christians, Jews and Atheists under said constitution’s law.

Imagine if we had it written in the American constitution to fight a group until they pay a tax and feel subdued; simply for being a different group.

Discrimination based on Religion is terrible; why do Liberals support this? Why, why why?

Probably because they see the Bill Mahers and Sam Harris’s of the world as eager to discriminate against Muslims, and liberals like to see themselves as champions of the persecuted and ostracized. Not looking for an argument here, just trying to see things from the other person’s standpoint. In other words, I’m taking your question at face value, not rhetorically.

 

[tomarin]

I agree with Ben Affleck on this issue. Terrorists are not representative of any religion, and they come in all forms: Christian IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland, Jewish terrorist supporters of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, Muslim members of terrorist organizations such as ISIS and Al Qaeda, etc.

This seems a little too reaching to me. How many followers of Meir Kahane are there nowadays? And the IRA may have been terrorists but they weren’t so much religiously-motivated terrorists as Irish nationalists who felt terror was an acceptable means to their end (kicking the British out of Ireland).

I’m not even sure that the majority of cases of persecution of Christians and Jews that goes on in the Muslim world is by terrorists per se but rather by their Muslim neighbors with the aid and complicity of local authorities. And I think we all have to be realists unlike Ben Affleck and acknowledge that it is very hard for a religious minority (whether it be Christian, Jew or Ahmadi) to live peacefully and flourish in a Muslim country these days. I don’t know where this intolerance comes from, or whether it has always been present, but it does seem deeply ingrained in Muslim countries. This is where I think Ben Affleck while good-intentioned appears to have his head in the sand. On the other hand I do not wish to ascribe all of this to some “tenets” of Islam a la Maher and Harris because that reifies the religion and treats it as something greater than it is. (While also acceding to the absurd claim that outsiders like Harris and Maher are the ultimate arbiters of what this religion teaches or prescribes - they are not the popes of Islam and should not pretend that they are.)