Bill Maher vs Ben Affleck on the problem with Islam

[tomarin]

I think it is also important to add that the IRA were a strongly leaning Marxist group who had their run ins with the Church. There are cases of priests refusing to give sacraments to members and when Pope JP2 visited Ireland he made an address for the ‘men of violence’ to put down their guns and solve disagreements peacefully following the example of Jesus.

Their political group Sinn Fein are also very ‘progressive’ on social issues in direct conflict with the Church.

Sinn Fein is socialist, not Marxist although I’ve heard that claim made many times, perhaps because they used to participate in training camps in places like Libya which at that time was aligned with the USSR against the free world (if I remember correctly). I think it might be fair to say they are secularist and socialist.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

True, but they also presumably live according to the tenets of Islam.

Qur’anic verses in favor of violence[edit]

Quran in chapter 9 says,
"Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.[1]
So travel freely (O Mushrikun) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.[2]

And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah — the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (to Muhammad) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.[3]
Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious — see V.2:2).[4]

Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat(charity), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[5]
And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.[6]"
—Muhsin khan translated Quran, verse 9:1-6

"O you who believe (in Allah’s Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. [28]

Fight against those who
(1) believe not in Allah,
(2) nor in the Last Day,
(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger
(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [29]

And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! [30]"
—Muhsin khan translated Quran, verse 9:28-30

Quran chapter 8 says,
“(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, “Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.”[12]
This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.[13]”
—Muhsin khan translated Quran, verse 8:12-13

“Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).[38]
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.[39]”
—Muhsin khan translated Quran, verse 8:38-39
—End Quote—
—End Quote—

Other than to say something like: that’s the way it was.

—Quote (Originally by Linusthe2nd)—
Hasn’t the world been trying to do that since 649 A.D. Seems to me the problem is with Islam itself.

Linus2nd
—End Quote—

Don’t see Shalom anywhere.

 

[tomarin]

Qur’anic verses in favor of violence[edit]

Islam is not inherently violent because it is not inherently anything. It has no essence.

You are doing just what I criticized Maher and Harris for doing, appointing yourself the Pope of Islam. Which is ridiculous, don’t you agree? As a Christian you don’t get to decide what Islam definitively teaches.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Not doing anything of the sort I am purely quoting what is in the Quran, do you have difficulty reading what it says , the written word says it all in the Quran, if you cannot accept this that is your problem and woe to you.

 

[AprilFoolish]

What really bothers me is the fact that before he decided to be Atheist, Maher came from a Jewish-Catholic mixed marriage. His Mother is Jewish which technically makes Maher Jewish himself!

Is it possible to decide to be atheist? If you believe that atheism exists, we are all atheists. We all have at least one God we don’t believe in. Early Christians were atheists in that the did not believe in the Gods of the time.

I have always found the word atheism a strange way to describe people. How can one not believe in something that does not exist?

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by SteveVH
Who really cares what either of these guys think? I wouldn’t watch Bill Maher if you paid me and Ben Affleck’s opinion is of no interest to me at all.

It would be wrong, I think, to focus on the person of Bill Maher, rather than the overall argument of Bill Maher.

There is much in his character that rubs many of us the wrong way. He is anti-Catholic and anti-religon. Nevertheless, his argument against his fellow liberals is an astute one. It matters not a wit what the majority of Muslims believe. It matters not a wit how many Muslims are sitting sweet and pretty in the front of the class.
When it comes to what is happening to all people who live in Islamic majority countries is that all the people within those societies, from Afghanistan to Libya, are subjected to illiberal laws that ought to be an affront to liberals. What is happening is that when Muslims immigrate to Western liberal democracies, is that the homor killings and the illiberal behavior come with them, and the oppression continues.

It all started out a couple of shows back with his talk about Hirsi Ali. She ought to be a liberal icon and a heroine for oppressed people everywhere. Instead she is shunned by liberals and lauded by American conservatives.

A liberal ideology that cannot stand in solidarity with Hirsi Ali against those who would oppress here is a liberal ideology that has simply lost its way.

Absolutely. I retract my statement. It is irrelevant. :bowdown:

 

[Jon_S_1]

Is it possible to decide to be atheist? If you believe that atheism exists, we are all atheists. We all have at least one God we don’t believe in. Early Christians were atheists in that the did not believe in the Gods of the time.

I have always found the word atheism a strange way to describe people. How can one not believe in something that does not exist?

Atheist

“A” meaning without/absent

Theist meaning “one who believes in God”

Therefore atheist equals “one who is not a theist”

Simple

Also don’t kid yourself. Atgeist very much believe in God. It is the God of themselves.

 

[benhur]

I’m surprised no1 had posted this yet but guess not many watch Real Time!

Anyway there was a very heated debate last Friday on Maher’s show

youtube.com/watch?v=IafWePD1DVw

Affleck claimed critiquing Islam is as bad as saying “shifty Jews”

of course this a deeply held problem in the liberal circles both US & UK.

Would be interested to see what peoples thoughts on it are here.

I saw something on tv. Islam says there are two kinds of people: those who have submitted to allah (what Islam means) and those at “war” (not submitted to Allah). All muslims believe this dichotomy. But they also believe/teach that someday all will submit, someday. to Allah and no more war. Moderate Muslims believe that someday will be much later or at end times but not right now as in, " let em be, I just want to live my Muslim life with no jihad"". Again, they understand Jihad and that it will happen sooner or later, but just prefer later . Then there are the fundamentalists who want the war now… The ebb and flow between the two is centuries long…**.Here is the challenge to how the rest of the unsubmitted world responds. The more fundamenatlists gain ground, the more the unsubmitted compromise (partly submit), the more the moderates start to think that maybe this is the end times when all will finally submit , and they just may shift to fundamentalism. The center shifts toward the extremists. So when moderates see less support for Israel, or demonstrators gaining sympathy, even a voice at Washington, Paris and London, when they see weakness and lack of resolve, even empathy towards fundamentalists, they begin to question their own moderateness, and think of shifting to the idea that maybe this is the time for jihad. Maybe it is now and not later is there logical thinking when they see Allah’s jihad gaining ground… By the way, if current demographics continue , by 2050 Muslims may be a majority in most european countries. That by Muslim design(lot of kids to please Allah and his world domination) aided by the "unsubmitted’s value system of childbearing (negative birth rate) vs materialism and abortion and liberal immigration policies.

 

[AprilFoolish]

Atheist

“A” meaning without/absent

Theist meaning “one who believes in God”

Therefore atheist equals “one who is not a theist”

Simple

Also don’t kid yourself. Atgeist very much believe in God. It is the God of themselves.

But, it is is strange to use a word like that - we don’t say a-harrypotterist, or a a-unicornist, or a-fairyist. It always seems a clunky word to use.

Not sure what you by ‘God of themselves’ can you elucidate?

Also as this is a Catholic forum, does ‘atheist’ mean does not believe in the Catholic God, in particular or Gods in general.

 

[Sceptical_John]

But, it is is strange to use a word like that - we don’t say a-harrypotterist, or a a-unicornist, or a-fairyist. It always seems a clunky word to use.

Not sure what you by ‘God of themselves’ can you elucidate?

Also as this is a Catholic forum, does ‘atheist’ mean does not believe in the Catholic God, in particular or Gods in general.

I agree it can be a clunky word it’s just the best we have. Often people think atheist mean your sure there isnt a god which is also false.
Many prominent atheists dislike being introduced as an atheist because like you said its like being defined by something you don’t believe.

 

[Sceptical_John]

IBy the way, if current demographics continue , by 2050 Muslims may be a majority in most european countries. .

I agree with much of what you said but I would take note with this common myth. I hear this in the UK often from strident right-wing friends. We have gone from about 2% muslim in 1950 to about 5% in 2010 at that rate it would probably take another 200 years.

Anyway the rest is very good!

 

[gmcbroom]

I read an article online titled islam through catholic eyes. It was very informative though there was a backlash to it in the comments beneath it. Now as to this post someone said on the last page something Long the lines of higher education could lead to atheism. I would like to add that for some this is true. Some,. But to prevent that from being the prevailing world view it takes catechesis at home not just the church. Then courage it takes courage to live your faith in the open. The reason moderate Islam is growing is partially birth rates mixed with a need to conform to the society they live in. But they also are tied heavily to their faith through family and mosque catechesis. If America is the land of the free the. Freedom to practice religion is for all equally yet how far does that go? What if the religion doesn’t choose the cooperate?

 

[SuperLuigi]

and liberals like to see themselves as champions of the persecuted and ostracized.

I’ve noticed, and it often comes without any real concern for the final results.

 

[Jon_S_1]

But, it is is strange to use a word like that - we don’t say a-harrypotterist, or a a-unicornist, or a-fairyist. It always seems a clunky word to use.

Not sure what you by ‘God of themselves’ can you elucidate?

Also as this is a Catholic forum, does ‘atheist’ mean does not believe in the Catholic God, in particular or Gods in general.

Actually we use it all the time, it’s from the Greek and Latin roots of our words.

Apnea. A Pnea without air

Agnostic. A gnosis. Without knowledge

Asystole. A systole. Without systolic function

We could go on and on.

As for what I meant of they are a God of themselves. It means that they are their own authority of which the world revolves.

God is the ultimate authority and sustainer of life. The one who is not created but is. I would suggest you view the video “what christians mean by God”. I will link below. But to reject God is to say you are the authority on life. Thus you are your own god.

youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI

Catholics hold that anyone who believes in the one God, is a theist. We believe All christians, not just catholics, Jews and Muslims worship the same God. We just hold that the non catholic groups have an erroneous way of worshiping.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I agree with Ben Affleck on this issue. Terrorists are not representative of any religion, and they come in all forms: Christian IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland, Jewish terrorist supporters of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, Muslim members of terrorist organizations such as ISIS and Al Qaeda, etc.

Well said Meltzerboy. I agree with the above. Folks like Robert Spencer and the SIOA movement could learn from a guy like you.

Many Blessings to all!

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Bill was not saying all Muslims are terrorists.

He was saying that islam teaches that women and minorities are second class citizens, that apostates should be put to death or shunned to the point of human rights violations.

The proof is in looking at any Islamic country in the world. Even moderate ones like morocco or Egypt.

Only on the secular west are we blind to this. We use the “cafeteria Muslims” as the example of what Islam teaches. But the only people who live Islam that way are the secularized minorities.

As a Catholic with Muslim family members, I disagree that Islam teaches that women and minorities are second class citizens.

I recommend taking a look at what is known as the Achtatime of Muhammad, a document ratified by Muhammad of which tells Muslims to respect Christians near and far, and to not harm Christian Churches.

You brought up Morocco,

As for Morocco, this is a country with a 99%+ Muslim population, yet there is a small Jewish population in Morocco.

youtube.com/watch?v=1ti-e2bY0mE

Note how this Muslim woman has such kind things to say about Jews,

youtube.com/watch?v=4307RJA6MOo

I would love to travel to Morocco one day.

Many Blessings to all!

 

[AprilFoolish]

Actually we use it all the time, it’s from the Greek and Latin roots of our words.

Apnea. A Pnea without air

Agnostic. A gnosis. Without knowledge

Asystole. A systole. Without systolic function

We could go on and on.

As for what I meant of they are a God of themselves. It means that they are their own authority of which the world revolves.

God is the ultimate authority and sustainer of life. The one who is not created but is. I would suggest you view the video “what christians mean by God”. I will link below. But to reject God is to say you are the authority on life. Thus you are your own god.

youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI

Catholics hold that anyone who believes in the one God, is a theist. We believe All christians, not just catholics, Jews and Muslims worship the same God. We just hold that the non catholic groups have an erroneous way of worshiping.

I was referring to things that don’t exist or are fictional. Your example are real things. Gods are fictional characters.

Once can’t 'reject; a fictional character, and humans have rejected gods since beginning of time - Christians ‘rejected’ Roman gods and catholics ‘reject’ norse gods.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I was referring to things that don’t exist or are fictional. Your example are real things. Gods are fictional characters.

Once can’t 'reject; a fictional character, and humans have rejected gods since beginning of time - Christians ‘rejected’ Roman gods and catholics ‘reject’ norse gods.

Tgeist does not mean mythical imaginary God. It means God.

I’m sorry but you saying there is no God does not make it so. This is the exact mentality I speak of in that you consider yourself God.

I could say I am

A physics Meaning I don’t believe physics and I think physics is imaginary.

It would be quite silly for me to be upset that people referred to my belief as an aphysicist because I said physics doesn’t exist.

Physics does exist and if I said otherwise it would be laughable.

So unless you want to provide scientific proof that God does not exist, then the term atheist makes perfect sense.

 

[josh987654321]

I’m surprised no1 had posted this yet but guess not many watch Real Time!

Anyway there was a very heated debate last Friday on Maher’s show

youtube.com/watch?v=IafWePD1DVw

Affleck claimed critiquing Islam is as bad as saying “shifty Jews”

of course this a deeply held problem in the liberal circles both US & UK.

Would be interested to see what peoples thoughts on it are here.

Hi Sceptical John,

Your link didn’t work for me, however I did watch this one - youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

I thought what Ben Affleck and the people on his side of the table were saying was very good.

And just something small for those siding with Bill Maher and Sam Harris, I would just like to say that tomorrow they will be just as quick if not quicker, to take some obscure verse from the old testament out of context about homosexuals etc and then attack us with it in an effort to ‘eradicate’ this ‘religious nonsense’ (as they call it) that they believe is holding back our societies and causing all of our problems (Sam Harris and Bill Maher are the same people who will say tomorrow ‘I have never heard of anyone who went to war over a non beleif in something’ and ‘I have never heard of any violence over the absence of beleif like atheism or agnosticism’).

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Sceptical_John]

Hi Sceptical John,
I thought what Ben Affleck and the people on his side of the table were saying was very good.

And just something small for those siding with Bill Maher and Sam Harris, I would just like to say that tomorrow they will be just as quick if not quicker, to take some obscure verse from the old testament out of context about homosexuals etc and then attack us with it in an effort to ‘eradicate’ this ‘religious nonsense’ (as they call it) that they believe is holding back our societies and causing all of our problems (Sam Harris and Bill Maher are the same people who will say tomorrow ‘I have never heard of anyone who went to war over a non beleif in something’ and ‘I have never heard of any violence over the absence of beleif like atheism or agnosticism’).

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Hi Josh welcome to the discussion.

I guess for me I believe that Islam is unfair & unjust to women/apostates/gays and so on.
The classic example is in Sharia for woman to prove she’s been raped there needs to be four MALE witnesses. There are people who want to see this in Britain and we need to be able to attack these suggestions without being called racist.

Thanks
John