Billy Graham, Altar Calls and the Bible

[Mickey]

gusano:

Mickey,
Do you ever think your heart is burning while you are experiencing The Mass ?


gusano

Yes, and it is an awesome, overwhelming, and indescribable feeling. Then it stops! Sometimes for a long period of time! I thought that I somehow lost my connection. But my spiritual advisor told me not to focus on the “warm and fuzzies”. Sometimes God is very close to us, but we panic because there is no physical/emotional sensation! So if I experience what seems like a period of spiritual dryness because I am not “feeling” the divine heat, I know that God is very close to me, and I rejoice!

God Bless,
Mickey

 

[ScottH]

Well look- I’m a non-Catholic, so lets get that out there before I post this. One thing- I’m no fan of alter calls, particularly when pastors COUNT the people who say they did the sinners prayer, or whatever.

We do not know their hearts. Its preposterous. Its a delcaration. They can often be made without faith.

But one thing I do notice- Roman Catholic churches that I have seen, particularly in my area (Pittsburgh PA) are simply terrible about outreach, and adding new members. And- again, note that I said “my area”- Im sure many of you would refute that if it were some bold statement about all of Catholcism- just realize that I’m not making that claim.

But in my area- the Roman Catholics are almost as bad as the Reformed Presbyterians, who do what I call “Taking their spiritual toys and going off to play by themselves.” I see so little witnessing on the part of the RC church locally. Its basically as if they think “Salvation is in the building- show up.”

But that’s not outreach. Sure- there’s the local Knights of Columbus, but they are basically kids of RC parents already in the church. That’s more “maintenance” than “outreach” in my mind.

So I think that the RC church can learn from some protestant evenagelizers in that it helps to “Get out there.” (Notice Im not talking alter calls or any of that presumptuous fluff…) I’m just talking about taking the message outside the walls.

Like them or not, understand them or not- I think you guys need to admit that the bigger “outreach” seems to be on the part of non-Catholic Christians.

Thats not to say GLOBALLY. I think you folks do some simply awesome work in the 3rd world and poorer nations. But I’m talking about the USA.

I don’t know- what do you guys think? Do you ever feel this way?

 

[Della]

ScottH:

But one thing I do notice- Roman Catholic churches that I have seen, particularly in my area (Pittsburgh PA) are simply terrible about outreach, and adding new members. And- again, note that I said “my area”- Im sure many of you would refute that if it were some bold statement about all of Catholcism- just realize that I’m not making that claim.

But in my area- the Roman Catholics are almost as bad as the Reformed Presbyterians, who do what I call “Taking their spiritual toys and going off to play by themselves.” I see so little witnessing on the part of the RC church locally. Its basically as if they think “Salvation is in the building- show up.”

I don’t know- what do you guys think? Do you ever feel this way?

Like you say, this is what you see in your area. And I could counter with what I see in my area, but that wouldn’t really answer your question.

I think that many Catholics think of themselves as under siege. Everywhere they turn people are telling them that what they believe is impractical, unbiblical or to hard to believe, depending on who is raising objections. This sort of atmoshpere tends to make most people duck behind their walls not reach out to the world. That’s why it takes the boldness of the saints to get us to peek out and face the opposition.

You have to admit that when an Evangelical confronts people with “the Gospel” most often they are challenging baptized Christians who simply don’t believe in the Evangelical formula of a “person relationship with Jesus” type of conversion. They are aggresive because they think that baptized Christians aren’t going to be saved unless they do accept the Evangelical formula. Catholics don’t believe that, so they don’t bother their baptized Protestant neighbors with a theological outlook on life they little understand or have no desire to.

As you cited, it is impossible to judge what is in another’s heart and mind. You don’t see the good work these supposed bland Catholics are doing outside the walls of the church. For example, the KCs are more than a Catholic club for men. It is an outreach program that does much for their parishes, their families, as well as the greater community. Go here to read up on them and what they do: Knights of Columbus

Edited for length

 

[Robert_in_SD]

ScottH:

Well look- I’m a non-Catholic, so lets get that out there before I post this. One thing- I’m no fan of alter calls, particularly when pastors COUNT the people who say they did the sinners prayer, or whatever.

We do not know their hearts. Its preposterous. Its a delcaration. They can often be made without faith.

But one thing I do notice- Roman Catholic churches that I have seen, particularly in my area (Pittsburgh PA) are simply terrible about outreach, and adding new members. And- again, note that I said “my area”- Im sure many of you would refute that if it were some bold statement about all of Catholcism- just realize that I’m not making that claim.

But in my area- the Roman Catholics are almost as bad as the Reformed Presbyterians, who do what I call “Taking their spiritual toys and going off to play by themselves.” I see so little witnessing on the part of the RC church locally. Its basically as if they think “Salvation is in the building- show up.”

But that’s not outreach. Sure- there’s the local Knights of Columbus, but they are basically kids of RC parents already in the church. That’s more “maintenance” than “outreach” in my mind.

So I think that the RC church can learn from some protestant evenagelizers in that it helps to “Get out there.” (Notice Im not talking alter calls or any of that presumptuous fluff…) I’m just talking about taking the message outside the walls.

Like them or not, understand them or not- I think you guys need to admit that the bigger “outreach” seems to be on the part of non-Catholic Christians.

Thats not to say GLOBALLY. I think you folks do some simply awesome work in the 3rd world and poorer nations. But I’m talking about the USA.

I don’t know- what do you guys think? Do you ever feel this way?

Interesting observation ScottH. I would tend to agree with some of it. As a Catholic, I think that the laity tend to shy away from evangelization for two main reasons - these are both my humble opinion…

First, Catholics in America seem to perceive evangelization as an act of improperly intruding into someone else’s private life. So the culture in the church welcomes people who show up to inquire about Catholicism, but there’s not much street-corner or door-to-door “witnessing” going on. That’s not to say that it does not happen here and there, but overall, I agree that there’s not much Catholic community outreach that is focused on conversion. My opinion is that this should change, and it must begin at the grass roots, with the common Catholic beginning to talk and dialogue with others about the things we believe as Catholics.

Second, Catholics seem to see evangelization as the role of the ordained religious and not the laity. It’s a sad kind of presumption for us to make, as Catholics, especially with the number of vocations to the priesthood still so low. I think that as the ratio of priests to laity decreases more and more “pew-sitting” Catholics will take up the subordinate roles of the priesthood - like evangelization - to free up the limited number of priests to focus on the administration of the sacraments.

 

[ScottH]

You mentioned under siege:

I think all of us Christians are all under siege. This 500 year old in-house debate aside- lets face it- the world, particularly those who’s faith is Post-Modernism and Moral-Relativism- hates us all with equal vigor.

-Particularly in the political arena- the hatred of President Bush by many in the world (for his pro-life agenda) is aimed at both R. Caths and Prots equally. We were the ones who voted him in (or at least that is their contention.)

When it comes to REALLY hating us Christians, trust me when I say we are lumped together.

That said- there are idiot Protestants who “hate” Catholics, and their are idiot Roman Catholics who “hate” Protestants. We are all sinners, this is to be expected. I personally love you guys, yet don’t always agree with you. I think at our core we are all just Christians. We just all don’t realize it enough.

 

[thessalonian]

Scott I pretty much agree with what you have said. We can and are learning alot from Evangelicals regarding outreach. Like Della says (she happens to live in my area) it varies considerably from diocese to diocese and parish to parish. Ours I would say is ahead of many and has several evangelization initiatives going on. It has also greatly improved in the last 10 years or so and I see alot of good things coming in the next 10. But with it I expect some fallout from the liberals who won’t be able to stand the truth. The wolves among us.

By the way, I think you are going to find that the Catholic Church is the only one guarded from falling in to the errors you have described in the thread on women priests. Our teachings regarding faith and morals (including the roles of men and women) have not changed in 2000 years and will not if Christ does not come for another 2000.

Thanks for you comments.

 

[reen12]

Hi, ScottH,

I think all of us Christians are all under siege. This 500 year old in-house debate aside- lets face it- the world, particularly those who’s faith is Post-Modernism and Moral-Relativism- hates us all with equal vigor.QUOTE]

Absolutely. I sometimes get off the forum and
think to myself: This is NOT the time to indulge
in “in house” quarrels…even if they are over
serious theological matters.

Christians need to present a united face to the
secular world at this critical point in history.

I think that our culture is in shambles - a
“culture of death” as Pope John Paul II the Great
said over and over.

When Catholics and Evangelicals stand shoulder
to shoulder in opposing abortion, the dreadful
manner in which Teri Schiavo was put to death,
the attempt to marginalize Christians in the
public square…THEN we can resume spirited
“in house” exchanges.

All I can think of is: All this questioning of one
another’s ecclesial stance at this point in time is like
re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The culture is fast going down the tubes.
What are we going to do about this…together?

reen12

 

[Mickey]

reen12:

The culture is fast going down the tubes.
What are we going to do about this…together?

Babies are dying every day! :crying: I think that’s a good place to start.

 

[ScottH]

Mickey:

Babies are dying every day! :crying: I think that’s a good place to start.

I think abortion should be outlawed.

But I also think that there’s a bigger problem than the death of the infants themselves- its the culture that not only does it, but seeks it as a viable- even recommended- option.

So- yes, we must do all we can within the law to stop abortion. But we also must minister and try to teach those who would seek such an option in the first place.

And that is where many Christians fail. (And- I am talking those on both sides of the Prot/Cath streets) We often rightly seek to prohibit the sin- especially one as heinous as abortion, yet we do very little to outreach to the people that would seek to get abortions.

Society is teaching them that its okay. Liberals in all churches are helping that along as well.

Meanwhile- we debate Luther, Trans-substantiation, and the Assumption.

Thank heavens that God is forgiving. I know I’m as guilty as everyone else. It was good to see us all side-by-side for Terri S. though. For a brief moment in time, church walls simply didn’t seem to matter- on either side of the street.

 

[Mickey]

ScottH:

I think abortion should be outlawed.

But I also think that there’s a bigger problem than the death of the infants themselves- its the culture that not only does it, but seeks it as a viable- even recommended- option.

So- yes, we must do all we can within the law to stop abortion. But we also must minister and try to teach those who would seek such an option in the first place.

And that is where many Christians fail. (And- I am talking those on both sides of the Prot/Cath streets) We often rightly seek to prohibit the sin- especially one as heinous as abortion, yet we do very little to outreach to the people that would seek to get abortions.

Society is teaching them that its okay. Liberals in all churches are helping that along as well.

Meanwhile- we debate Luther, Trans-substantiation, and the Assumption.

Thank heavens that God is forgiving. I know I’m as guilty as everyone else. It was good to see us all side-by-side for Terri S. though. For a brief moment in time, church walls simply didn’t seem to matter- on either side of the street.

AMEN TO ALL OF THAT POST!

 

[thessalonian]

This post I disagree with. There is plenty going on in Catholicism with regard to helping women who are seeking abortion to give them alternatives. You know not what you speak of. Further your post implies that things like transubstantiation are not important and worth debating. I am truly saddened that you and Protestants like you don’t know the truth of Christ’s real prescence in the Eucharist. Even if you do believe it you don’t have it because you don’t have the priesthood. Sorry. To me, that you do not participate in this great grace is just as serious as a woman contemplating abortion. It is easy for you to sit back and say “let’s not debate transubstantiation”, you don’t believe it. And to be critical of Catholics for debating such things. But from our perspective, knowing the reality it is important. Jude said of the Jews requiring circumcision “they must be silenced”. Would this be an issue for you that isn’t really all that important. From my perspective the Eucharist is just as important.

As for the assumption, I don’t bring it up unless people attack it. I don’t usually have to wait long on these boards.

Blessings

 

[Della]

ScottH:

You mentioned under siege:

I think all of us Christians are all under siege. This 500 year old in-house debate aside- lets face it- the world, particularly those who’s faith is Post-Modernism and Moral-Relativism- hates us all with equal vigor.

-Particularly in the political arena- the hatred of President Bush by many in the world (for his pro-life agenda) is aimed at both R. Caths and Prots equally. We were the ones who voted him in (or at least that is their contention.)

When it comes to REALLY hating us Christians, trust me when I say we are lumped together.

That said- there are idiot Protestants who “hate” Catholics, and their are idiot Roman Catholics who “hate” Protestants. We are all sinners, this is to be expected. I personally love you guys, yet don’t always agree with you. I think at our core we are all just Christians. We just all don’t realize it enough.

I basically agree with you Scott. However, the question you posed did not deal with ecumenism.

To say you love Catholics is fine, and I appauld your sentiments–I love Protestants, but I can’t agree that we are all “just Christians”. All who are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit may claim the title of Christian. But, Jesus desired that we all be one. St. Paul said that there is only one faith and one baptism. But, if we do not agree on vital issues, how are we one?

The Reformation was a complex event with mistakes to go around, but the answer wasn’t to disconnect from the Church. It was to reform the Church. Not according to the ideas of this person or that, but in the way it conducted certain of its affairs. The Church did do that, but still people would not acknowledge her God given authority but went off on their own inventing theologies that pleased them.

And so we come to our day, and nothing has changed. There will always be people who will not accept the authority of the Church, although why their ideas and opinions should hold more sway with anyone when they do not have the promise of infallibility is beyond me.

 

[Mickey]

thessalonian:

This post I disagree with. There is plenty going on in Catholicism with regard to helping women who are seeking abortion to give them alternatives. You know not what you speak of. Further your post implies that things like transubstantiation are not important and worth debating. I am truly saddened that you and Protestants like you don’t know the truth of Christ’s real prescence in the Eucharist. Even if you do believe it you don’t have it because you don’t have the priesthood. Sorry. To me, that you do not participate in this great grace is just as serious as a woman contemplating abortion. It is easy for you to sit back and say “let’s not debate transubstantiation”, you don’t believe it. And to be critical of Catholics for debating such things. But from our perspective, knowing the reality it is important. Jude said of the Jews requiring circumcision “they must be silenced”. Would this be an issue for you that isn’t really all that important. From my perspective the Eucharist is just as important.

As for the assumption, I don’t bring it up unless people attack it. I don’t usually have to wait long on these boards.

Blessings

I think that Scott was saying that if we are going to find some common ground, we start with areas we have in common. There is always more we can do in reference to the abortion issue. In my opinion, until it is completely illegal, we are not doing enough. Even if it is illegal, we must continue to work toward halting the desire of people who might want to continue this crime in the back alleys.

Bless you

 

[reen12]

Dear Della,

But, if we do not agree on vital issues, how are we one?

I know that you addressed this question to ScottH,
but please allow me to respond, as well.

We are not ‘one’ in the sense that Jesus
prayed that we would be.

But can we not act as a* community* of Christians
in standing together to oppose abortion and a raft
of other odious realities?

There’s a phrase that I came across that I like to use:

“When the perfect becomes the enemy of the good…”

If we wait for perfect unity, the secular world
may be successful in marginalizing all Christians.

reen12

 

[thessalonian]

Mickey:

I think that Scott was saying that if we are going to find some common ground, we start with areas we have in common. There is always more we can do in reference to the abortion issue. In my opinion, until it is completely illegal, we are not doing enough. Even if it is illegal, we must continue to work toward halting the desire of people who might want to continue this crime in the back alleys.

Bless you

I am fine with that but when people start saying that some doctrine isn’t worth debating when they don’t believe (which is how it came accross to me) in it I get a little on edge. If transubstantiation is true (and it is) it is worth going to the mat for.

Blessings

 

[reen12]

Dear thessalonian,

Actually, I introduced the general idea by posting:

quote, reen12
All this questioning of one another’s ecclesial stance
at this point in time is like re-arranging the deck chairs
on the Titanic.

The culture is fast going down the tubes.
What are we going to do about this…together?

Perhaps it would have been wiser to state it:

Could we come out from behind the barricades
and rest from our doctrinal issues long enough to stand
side by side…

That would cover* both* working together and
defending the Real Presence, while acting
as the “lamp” to the surrounding secular culture.

reen12

 

[gusano]

Mickey:

Yes, and it is an awesome, overwhelming, and indescribable feeling. Then it stops! Sometimes for a long period of time! I thought that I somehow lost my connection. But my spiritual advisor told me not to focus on the “warm and fuzzies”. Sometimes God is very close to us, but we panic because there is no physical/emotional sensation! So if I experience what seems like a period of spiritual dryness because I am not “feeling” the divine heat, I know that God is very close to me, and I rejoice!

God Bless,
Mickey

And blessings to you too, Mickey

I believe that “spiritual dryness” one occasionally tastes while celebrating the Eucharist…itself is a blessing.
Didn’t Christ experience the full blast of dryness at his death, and aren’t we “baptized into his death”?
But if we continue in faith, he also occasionally lets us “see beyond the veil” into what He has prepared for those who love him.
on the other hand,
The apostasy (Matt.13:41) is where “little ones” are led astray from The Glory of the Altar…(Matt.18:6)

I believe both the “dryness and the glory” are in that OFFER , available for us to receive at the Altar.
…previewed in Phil.3:10.

All praise, honor, and glory to Christ

gusano

 

[Zooey]

OK, I finally got access to working speakers, & listened to Albert Mohler…(He is one of those people that make me remember why I am :nope: not Baptist).
He was being quoted on a very A/C program that I had never heard of before…Apparently, there is a lot of upset over the Time cover story on thr “Protestant Mary”–which I thought was so mild that it couldn’t offend anybody, (but hey, that’s me)…
He basically is saying that because(he says)** the words of the Hail Mary are not in the Bible,** that nobody should pray to Mary**…(I guess maybe he has cut Luke’s Gospel out of his Bible, cause it sure is in mine!)**
He is more than abusing sola scriptura, IMHO, he takes it to a whole other level. He is inventing prohibitions (against prayer to saints) to fit his own prejudices.
The :crying: saddest thing is that here are some people that I can almost bet, would be dead set against abortion & euthanasia, & they could have done a realy good discussion on that subject, except that it seems like they think it is more fun to bash Catholics. (And me, too…).

 

[thessalonian]

Zooey:

OK, I finally got access to working speakers, & listened to Albert Mohler…(He is one of those people that make me remember why I am :nope: not Baptist).
He was being quoted on a very A/C program that I had never heard of before…Apparently, there is a lot of upset over the Time cover story on thr “Protestant Mary”–which I thought was so mild that it couldn’t offend anybody, (but hey, that’s me)…
He basically is saying that because(he says)** the words of the Hail Mary are not in the Bible,** that nobody should pray to Mary**…(I guess maybe he has cut Luke’s Gospel out of his Bible, cause it sure is in mine!)**
He is more than abusing sola scriptura, IMHO, he takes it to a whole other level. He is inventing prohibitions (against prayer to saints) to fit his own prejudices.
The :crying: saddest thing is that here are some people that I can almost bet, would be dead set against abortion & euthanasia, & they could have done a realy good discussion on that subject, except that it seems like they think it is more fun to bash Catholics. (And me, too…).

Thanks Zooey. And would you say I have misrepresented him or taken him out of context?

 

[speedy5]

hello all, i’m kinda new to this forum. i take no side on this issue. i just want to shed some light. as a former church of christ member i’d like to give you the way we did an “alter call”. we called it the invitation. after the preacher gave the sermon we had the invitation. normally we sang a hymn while the person would go up to the front. i don’t remember if it was called the alter or not, since it’s been a few years since i’ve been there. there they would see an elder, deacon, or the preacher and prey. we didn’t have a specific prayer, and normally it wasn’t just someone being saved. if somebody went up and they were seeking to give their heart to jesus, then they were baptised by the close of the meeting. so here are my two cents, and thanks for letting me post. it is an honor and a privilage. bless you all.