Binding/Loosing Sins- Excommunications

[ConstantineTG]

If someone is excommunicated from the Catholic Church, does this mean that they are now condemned into hell unless they are restored to the Church?

No. Only Christ judges.

 

[Andre1000]

Joan de Arc died in the state of excommunication and is a saint.

 

[JRKH]

Couple of points here…

The main question is does this power retain only in peter and no other person? If it is to be possessed by others, by what means?

By means of proper ordination. When Jesus commissioned the Apostles he said, “As the Father sent me so I send you”, He then layed on hands and breathed on them giving them the Holy Spirit. So - having received this authority from Jesus directly, they likewise directly pass on that authority in each ordination.

We read later that the ‘‘church’’ has the power of the keys (binding/loosing abilities) which seems to be a wider structure than peter as an individual. Lets say this Church is referring to local bodies in each city. It is not a wild thought that Jesus taught Matthew 18 while doddering the spread of various churches in the world. If we grant this, then the power of the keys is in the hands of church clergy, bishops.

Not sure what you mean here by “doddering”… but essentially this is true. The keys are in the hands of the Church - primarily the Bishops assisted by the priests and the laity as a whole.

Since the first few centuries of the church consisted of many fellowships across the board of the world who had no contact with peters successors in Rome, how could they possess the power of the keys? And If in some cases, bishops were ordained by their congregations, how do they retain succession?

Well - Bishops (so far as I know) were never ordained by their congregations. They might be selected by the congregation but they would be ordained by another bishop.
As to the communities of the early centuries…you are quite right…communication was tricky but they did there best. It’s important to note that as soon as the Church became legal in the Roman Empire, there began a number of conferences, synods and councils with the goal of pulling everything together and sort out the genuine from the spurious.

Peace
James

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

So is it heretical to believe that someone is ordained through the holy spirit and the congregation?

And if it is, what if there was a break in all of the ordinations from the twleve apostles. For instance, what if in the persecutions, a set of bishops were martyred and then there was no more bishops. The people who took theiir place, did they not ordain themselves through the holy spirit? Or the congregation?

 

[Sirach2]

So is it heretical to believe that someone is ordained through the holy spirit and the congregation?

What if there was a break in all of the ordinations from the twleve apostles.

I suppose Protestants believe that, and for THEM, it may be true, for they have no lineage. But for Catholics, that will never happen, because we have the promise of Jesus to be with us always, and that the Church will never fail. It would make His words false, yes?

There will not be a break, so don’t worry your head about it.

.

 

[JRKH]

So is it heretical to believe that someone is ordained through the holy spirit and the congregation?

It is important that we be careful in how we answer this. From the Catechism:
818…one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers
So I will refrain from using the term “heretical” where the person may believe something because that is how they were taught…even though that teaching is in error.
And it is an error to believe that someone is ordained simply through the Holy Spirit and the affirmation of the congregation. This is as it has been taught in the Church from the beginning.
But remember - that in this we are referring to the ministerial priesthood, the bishopric and those appointed to aid the bishop (the priests and deacons).

And if it is, what if there was a break in all of the ordinations from the twelve apostles. For instance, what if in the persecutions, a set of bishops were martyred and then there was no more bishops. The people who took their place, did they not ordain themselves through the holy spirit? Or the congregation?

Such what if’s have no point. It did not occur nor would God have allowed it to occur, so is not an issue.

Peace
James

 

[Nigel7]

… what if there was a break in all of the ordinations from the twleve apostles.
For instance, what if in the persecutions, a set of bishops were martyred and then there was no more bishops.

‘What if… what if…’
We could “what if” about anything and everything. Doesn’t make it so.

And it isn’t so. Didn’t happen.

So some guy who decides one day that he’s gonna go start a church and teach the gospels according to his own preferences and interpretations is not valid. The protestant world is full of such people. They’re not “ordained by the Holy Spirit”, and they have no authority.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

The answers were very helpful. Only thing now to tackle is sorting and praying through the Marian doctrines. Does anyone know where one could see the historicity of this?

 

[Sirach2]

You would get a better audience if you began another thread. People would not be looking to respond to anything regarding Mary in light of the present title.

 

[robwar]

The answers were very helpful. Only thing now to tackle is sorting and praying through the Marian doctrines. Does anyone know where one could see the historicity of this?

There are a number of link in Catholic answers and even posts on CAF that can help you.
God bless you on your journey.

 

[JRKH]

The answers were very helpful. Only thing now to tackle is sorting and praying through the Marian doctrines. Does anyone know where one could see the historicity of this?

THIS might help get you started.

 

[pablope]

could you respond a bit on the issue of ordination in the protestant Church. This particular church was started by a seminarian (baptist) who planted the church back in 1995. Just two years ago, he was arrested for child molestation. Then the assistant pastor, who was ordained by the previous pastor (the one arrested) became the Senior Pastor and now ordained a new assistant Pastor.

**How would a Catholic argue or disprove the validity of this type of ordination?/**QUOTE]

The proper type of ordination…since the time of the Apostles…also requries the proper form and intent…it is of a sacramental nature…to confect the Eucharist. As you already know, the CC views the priesthood as a sacrament…and the sacraments are the channels of God’s grace.

My question is…what is the intent of this pastor getting laid hands for, or being ordained for?

Is it just some sort of ceremony to show a laying of hands…but not sacramental intent?

Here is the earliest account of laying of hands…in Numbers 27 (that I know of):

15 Moses said to the Lord, 16 “May the Lord, the God who gives breath to all living things, appoint someone over this community 17 to go out and come in before them, one who will lead them out and bring them in, so the Lord’s people will not be like sheep without a shepherd.”
18 So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit of leadership,[a] and lay your hand on him. 19 Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence.

You can see from this passage…there is the involvement of the Eleazar…the Priest.

22 Moses did as the Lord commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly. 23 Then he laid his hands on him and commissioned him, as the Lord instructed through Moses.

Now look at Paul’s in Acts 13…1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

One does not choose to be ordained…one is chosen and ordained.

 

[pablope]

So is it heretical to believe that someone is ordained through the holy spirit and the congregation?

The ordination is through the HS…and not the congregation. Look at the examples I posted previously…in Joshua, there was no congregation involved…and Paul’s in Acts 13.

And if it is, what if there was a break in all of the ordinations from the twleve apostles. For instance, what if in the persecutions, a set of bishops were martyred and then there was no more bishops. The people who took theiir place, did they not ordain themselves through the holy spirit? Or the congregation?

 

[pablope]

The answers were very helpful. Only thing now to tackle is sorting and praying through the Marian doctrines. Does anyone know where one could see the historicity of this?

Let me give you a little anecdote…a true story. There is poster here who also was thinking of converting…and, just like you, his last hangup was Mary. I recommended this book below. Anyway, somehow, after a few days, he just suddenly stopped by a bookstore…a catholic one at that…he found himself looking at this book…and bought it. He recounted this in his later post…and after reading it…he said he understood better.

So I have, I think, the right book for you…Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn:

amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Queen-Mother-Word/dp/0385501692

*Most Christians know that the life of Jesus is foreshadowed throughout the Old Testament. Through a close examination of the Bible, as well as the work of both Catholic and Protestant scholars and clergy, Hahn brings to light the small but significant details showing that just as Jesus is the “New Adam,” so Mary is the “New Eve.” He unveils the Marian mystery at the heart of the Book of Revelation and reveals how it is foretold in the very first pages of the Book of Genesis and in the story of King David’s monarchy, which speaks of a privileged place for the mother of the king.

Building on these scriptural and historical foundations, Hahn presents a new look at the Marian doctrines: Her Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption, and Coronation. As he guides modern-day readers through passages filled with mysteries and poetry, Hahn helps them rediscover the ancient art and science of reading the Scriptures and gain a more profound understanding of their truthfulness and relevance to faith and the practice of religion in the contemporary world.*

catechismclass.com/files/Hail%20Holy%20Queen%20by%20Scott%20Hahn.pdf

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

OK I’m not sure his to understand this. Are you saying that God can call someone in the protestant denomination to just start a church by the charism of the HS

 

[Sirach2]

Who are you talking to Erick? And what post are you referencing? You aren’t coming in too clear.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I was responding to the previous post. It sounded like he was saying that the holy spirit ordains anyone even if they are disconnected from the catholic church.

But I appreciate your reccomdation!

 

[Sirach2]

I was responding to the previous post. It sounded like he was saying that the holy spirit ordains anyone even if they are disconnected from the catholic church.

But I appreciate your reccomdation!

I did not understand it that way, but I will let him explain to you.

 

[pablope]

I was responding to the previous post. It sounded like he was saying that the holy spirit ordains anyone even if they are disconnected from the catholic church.

But I appreciate your reccomdation!

Can you cite the post number…on the upper right…and the particular statement in the post?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Erick_Ybarra,

Yours was a very sad post - and one that I suggest you look at with all seriousness and sobriety. These people have terrorized you - and that is wrong. It may be good to recall the image Christ Himself gave us of the Good Shepherd. Note He was not carrying one of the self-righteous sheep on His Shoulders - but, the lost one who was caught in the bushes. Obviously, this image has gathered dust in the group you were once with - but, you know - “For those who love God, all things work together unto good” (Rom 8 - here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Romans_8 ).

Chance are, this action of theirs can be seen as a ‘wake up call’ for you to start moving over to the the Church founded by Christ Himself on Peter. (Matt 16 here is another link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Matthew_16. And this is the Church that Christ delegated the Power of God to forgive or retain men’s sins - John 20 veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/John_20 . My guess is that this group claims that Scripture Alone is the answer - but, this is not really true - it is only scripture they accept and have interpreted to suit their ways are acceptable. Here we see Christ clearly giving the authority to the Apostles - yet these former churchmen of yours have rejected that.

I think Nigel7 gave you some excellent information. Please, take what your group did as a real sign from God - not only do they not want you, but, I think you will see that moving away from them is in the best interest of your immortal soul. Honest, these guys did you a favor - if they hadn’t, you may still be floundering around in their human traditions.

Please pray for the Guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you in the path towards salvation. I would suggest that those who are on this thread pray for Erick’s intention, too.

God bless

Hello everyone,

I was wondering what the Catholic Church has historically understood the passages dealing with the binding and loosing of sins.

If someone is excommunicated from the Catholic Church, does this mean that they are now condemned into hell unless they are restored to the Church?

In my case, I was excommunicated from my protestant church a couple of years ago, and I have tried to reconcile with them but they don’t believe I am really repentant, and so they have not restored me. I’ve tried a number of time, and perhaps I need more wisdom, but I think i’ve laid myself before them in repentance.

Does this mean that I am bound in my sin and guilt until the church remits me?
Now this protestant church believes that the binding/loosing function is merely declarative, it is not effectual. In other words, they do not believe in forgiving sins or binding men’s sin literally, but that they can no longer testify to that person’s salvation and so they are removed from the church.

In the case of my old protestant church, you may be thinking of the validity of their ordination. Well, they pastors there told me that the Holy Spirit chooses who is going to be in authority, and the with the people’s consent (congregations).