Biological Design Argument?

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bennierja

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Hey Brothers and Sisters,
I have a simple question here, and I’m open to as many suggestions as possible. I’ve just read Privileged Planet (which I highly advise, btw), which has a great argument. It infers design from an unnecessary pattern of correlation between Earth’s unique suitability for life and scientific learning. It mostly covers things like physics and astronomy, but it hardly touches biology. Have any of you read some really great design arguments based on biology? I’m looking for something book-length and meaty here. Thanks for the help!

Josh
 
Hey Brothers and Sisters,
I have a simple question here, and I’m open to as many suggestions as possible. I’ve just read Privileged Planet (which I highly advise, btw), which has a great argument. It infers design from an unnecessary pattern of correlation between Earth’s unique suitability for life and scientific learning. It mostly covers things like physics and astronomy, but it hardly touches biology. Have any of you read some really great design arguments based on biology? I’m looking for something book-length and meaty here. Thanks for the help!

Josh
Stephen Meyer’s book Signature in the cell: DNA and the evidence for intelligent design was submitted by Thomas Nagel, professor of philosophy at New York University, as his contribution to the “2009 Books of the Year” supplement for The Times. Although he is an atheist he wrote:

“Signature in the Cell…is a detailed account of the problem of how life came into existence from lifeless matter – something that had to happen before the process of biological evolution could begin … Meyer is a Christian, but atheists, and theists who believe God never intervenes in the natural world, will be instructed by his careful presentation of this fiendishly difficult problem.”

The author of the article in wikipedia makes the common mistake of confusing Intelligent Design with Creationism! There are extracts from the book online.
 
Maybe someone can confirm if Michael Behe’s stuff talks about biology. I think a talk of his I heard a couple years ago did.
 
Hey Brothers and Sisters,
I have a simple question here, and I’m open to as many suggestions as possible. I’ve just read Privileged Planet (which I highly advise, btw), which has a great argument. It infers design from an unnecessary pattern of correlation between Earth’s unique suitability for life and scientific learning. It mostly covers things like physics and astronomy, but it hardly touches biology. Have any of you read some really great design arguments based on biology? I’m looking for something book-length and meaty here. Thanks for the help!
Gonzales’ book has unfortunately been rendered somewhat obsolete by recent discoveries of large numbers of exoplanets, many of which are sufficiently earth-like to render any argument based on the uniqueness of Earth moot.

See Planet Candidates for some of the basic data.

Please remember that discussion of evolution is temporarily banned, see stickies. Astronomy is fine, but moving into biology may cause problems.

rossum
 
In “A Short Scheme of the True Religion,” Newton drew vigorously on a biological illustration to support a God who exercises intelligent design. “Whence is it that the eyes of all sorts of living creatures are transparent to the very bottom & the only transparent members in the body, having on the outside an hard transparent skin, & within transparent juices with a crystalline Lens in the middle & a pupil before the Lens all of them so truly shaped & fitted for vision, that no Artist can mend them? Did blind chance know that there was light & what was its refraction & fit the eyes of all creatures after the most curious manner to make use of it? These & such like considerations always have & ever will prevail with mankind to believe that there is a being who made all things & has all things in his power & who is therefore to be feared."
 
Gosh, where could he possibly have got that idea?
A website that fails to appear is symbolic of your failure to give an adequate response to my posts and your failure to realise that Design includes Evolution…
 
In “A Short Scheme of the True Religion,” Newton drew vigorously on a biological illustration to support a God who exercises intelligent design. “Whence is it that the eyes of all sorts of living creatures are transparent to the very bottom & the only transparent members in the body, having on the outside an hard transparent skin, & within transparent juices with a crystalline Lens in the middle & a pupil before the Lens all of them so truly shaped & fitted for vision, that no Artist can mend them? Did blind chance know that there was light & what was its refraction & fit the eyes of all creatures after the most curious manner to make use of it? These & such like considerations always have & ever will prevail with mankind to believe that there is a being who made all things & has all things in his power & who is therefore to be feared."
👍 Not only feared but also thanked and loved:

“There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.” 1 John 4:18
 
A website that fails to appear is symbolic of your failure to give an adequate response to my posts and your failure to realise that Design includes Evolution…
Which is one of the major problems with design. How do we see if something cannot have been designed? If there is nothing which cannot have been designed, then design is rendered moot. Point your design detector at anything, and the green light glows. Bird? Designed. Grass? Designed. Rock? Designed. Star? Designed. Galaxy? Designed.

What can we point our design detector at to make the red light glow?

If everything is designed, then design is not a useful concept. At the very least we need something not designed in order to test that our design detector is working correctly.

rossum
 
Which is one of the major problems with design. How do we see if something cannot have been designed? If there is nothing which cannot have been designed, then design is rendered moot. Point your design detector at anything, and the green light glows. Bird? Designed. Grass? Designed. Rock? Designed. Star? Designed. Galaxy? Designed.

What can we point our design detector at to make the red light glow?

If everything is designed, then design is not a useful concept. At the very least we need something not designed in order to test that our design detector is working correctly.

rossum
There are many instances of non-Design in the world, e.g. accidents, disasters, diseases and deformities.
 
We design a hammer for the purpose of hitting something. Nature designs wood and steel so that we can design a hammer. Nature designs an ocean so that we can design ships. Nature designs air so that we can design airplanes. Nature designs earth so that we can design cars and trains. Nature designs brains so that we can figure out all the things Nature has designed!

If everything was not designed, why does everything appear to be designed?

Even the Big Bang appears designed to contain the seeds (elements) of who we are today.
 
There are many instances of non-Design in the world, e.g. accidents, disasters, diseases and deformities.
I did not ask you for an instance of design, I asked for an instance of non-design. A design detector has to correctly distinguish between design and non-design. If you do not have a known instance of non-design, then you cannot test your detector. An untested detector must be considered unreliable.

You cannot get reliable results from an unreliable, untested design detector. What non-designed object did you use to test your design detector?

rossum
 
If everything was not designed, why does everything appear to be designed?
If a mirage does not contain water, why does a mirage appear to contain water?

Our senses are not completely reliable; they can be fooled and give us false impressions. Appearances can deceive.

rossum
 
rossum

Our senses are not completely reliable; they can be fooled and give us false impressions. Appearances can deceive.

That would be true in the case of the illusion that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. But it would not be true if you consider that everything that exists seems designed to make possible everything that exists. Why would everything be an illusion?
 
Gonzales’ book has unfortunately been rendered somewhat obsolete by recent discoveries of large numbers of exoplanets, many of which are sufficiently earth-like to render any argument based on the uniqueness of Earth moot.
First of all, to make the discussion more accessible to amateurs like myself who don’t understand at a glance words like “exoplanet,” the word simply means planets outside the Solar System. rossum, it seems incredible to me that after reading Privileged Planet you think the overwhelming body of evidence contained therein can be rendered obsolete by a mere increase in the number of discovered planets. Did you seriously think that the author’s didn’t foresee the discovery of more planets? It also seems incredible that you missed the entire argument of the book - it was much more nuanced than a traditional design argument which infers design merely from complexity and rarity of life. As I summarized in the OP, it inferred design from the unnecessary pattern of correlation between Earth’s unique suitability for life and scientific learning.

In reading your article on planet candidates, I learned about planets that are like Earth in this or that respect. This planet is about the same size of Earth. That planet is in the stellar habitable zone, like Earth is. Show me one planet that is anywhere near as ideal as Earth for life, in other words, that actually has more than a couple of these features, especially the perfect moon relationship. Truth be told, I thought the authors demonstrated quite conclusively that life would require at least all the features listed in their book, and probably many more yet undiscovered particular to Earth, including: partially liquid iron core, magnetic field, plate tectonics, proximity to sun, size of planet, a moon of just the right size, a moon with just the right proximity, the right star (I saw all kinds of planets from your article that were around red dwarfs and other seriously problematic stars), sister planets to provide bombardment shielding, the right metallicity, the right star age, the right planet age, the right planet makeup of oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen, and the list goes on and on and on.

You tell the forum there is a growing list of planet candidates, and concerning some of those planets the scientists are still debating whether or not it is a gas giant. These planets are so far away, it’s hard to even clearly see their existence, let alone get near determining whether they have a fraction of these life-essential qualities. It is incredible to me that you disregard the book’s argument out of hand with such weak evidence.
 
Thanks tonyrey and MarcoPolo, some excellent suggestions. I am particularly interested in the origins of life, as that seems an insurmountable hump for atheists. I haven’t been on this forum before, so I didn’t know there was a ban on evolution discussions. I apologize if this discussion goes into the grey area, and I submit myself to the moderator.
 
There are many instances of non-Design in the world, e.g. accidents, disasters, diseases and deformities.
Accidents, disasters, diseases and deformities** are** instances of non-Design. They are unintended coincidences which are inevitable in any immensely complex system. In a word they are dysteleological, i.e. negative, irrational, harmful, destructive, valueless, purposeless and meaningless.
 
Our senses are not completely reliable; they can be fooled and give us false impressions. Appearances can deceive.

That would be true in the case of the illusion that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. But it would not be true if you consider that everything that exists seems designed to make possible everything that exists. Why would everything be an illusion?
Look again at what you posted, “everything that exists seems designed to make possible everything that exists.” (emphasis added)

Things are not always what they seem to be, a mirage is just one of many examples. If all that Intelligent Design has is the equivalent of “it sure looks designed to me”, then that is not science, but subjective opinion. ID needs to produce an objective way to distinguish design from non-design. That objective way needs to be tested, hence my request to tonyrey for something that is not designed to enable proper testing.

It is worth noting that Dr Dembski seems (!) to have dropped his Explanatory Filter in his book “The Search for a Search”. If we follow Dembski’s logic there, then evolution works perfectly well in our universe because our universe is one of the small subset of possible universes in which evolution works. The designer’s role is pushed back to selecting the laws of the universe around the time of the Big Bang. Everything else, including both biology and evolution, follows from that initial act of design.

rossum
 
… The designer’s role is pushed back to selecting the laws of the universe around the time of the Big Bang. Everything else, including both biology and evolution, follows from that initial act of design.
Everything follows from that initial act of design but not every event fulfils the purposes for which the universe is intended - as I have already pointed out. The element of Chance has to be taken into account!
 
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