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Linusthe2nd
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Ah, but neither I nor Prof. Anderson said this was the solution. We offer it only as a pointer to a possible solution. From the point of view of human understanding we recoginze the difficulty. But note that I said we do not depend on human understanding as the grounds of its truth. The grounds for the truth that God does not change is our faith in Divine Revelation which is grounded in the fact that God has revealed who he is and given us a simple understanding of his nature in broad strokes. And God does not lie. He tells us he does not change and is indeed unchangeable. So there is no human argument which can judge, truthfully, that this is not true. So we bow our heads in the obedience of faith to this truth.
We therefore do not deny the existence of God or his revelation about his nature simply because we cannot find a line of reasoning to demonstrate what we believe in every instance.
P.S. I think you would be edified if you read the entire comment by Dr. Anderson in the link I gave you. I think you will appreciate his honesty. He calls it a Paradox. I would not go that far because I am one who believes that neither Paradoxes nor delimmas exist. What exists is either deception or failure in human understanding. I think it is the latter which applies in this case. Linus2nd
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rossum
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Yes. We are better at reasoning that most other forms of life on Earth. Simple reasoning has been observed in some other species, though not to the level of human reasoning.
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rossum
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Then it is rather pointless to use logic to argue your point. I do not use the Bible but rather the Tripitaka, which tells me that the words of the Buddha are of far more worth than the words of any god, or God.
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nmgauss
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Reasoning power does not make us unique among living creatures. Observe how an octopus is able to figure out how to remove a morsel of food from a closed jar. Chimpanzees are noted to have the power of reasoning. So do gorillas.
The more science discovers the mental powers of creatures, the less and less humans can regard themselves as unique.
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Peter_Plato
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Actually, it is you who are reifying your own ability to understand inherently incomprehensible realities when, as you pointed out, our understanding of even subtle concepts within our reach is limited.
This is ironic, really, when your signature line demonstrates a clearly inherent contradiction (which you readily accept), but you rail on about the semantics of a alleged contradiction concerning the nature of God for which we have no framework by which to claim anything remotely approaching understanding.
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Peter_Plato
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And how would you know that unless you assume a position concerning knowledge that places your own ability to understand and discern above the Tripitaka, the words of Buddha, logic and the words of any god or God in order to assess and weigh them against each other? I realize that being in such a position would certainly flatter your ego and make you unassailable as a god to yourself, but certainly even Buddha would wince at your audacity, no?
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rossum
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Because the words of the Buddha work. The Buddha does not say, “believe this and you will be saved”. The Buddha says, “do this and you will attain peace, happiness and nirvana.”
I am following, as best I can, the path the Buddha set out. I can see for myself that it leads to peace. I can see for myself that it leads to happiness. Nirvana? It has worked two out of three, and nirvana is always stated to be a distant goal.
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tonyrey
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And without reasoning we would be incapable of spiritual development? Does that also distinguish us from animals or does it apply to them as well?
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Aloysium
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I would love to get an octopus’ opinion on Intelligent Design.
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Peter_Plato
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Actually, you are confusing Catholicism and the words of Jesus with Protestantism and the words of Martin Luther. Jesus does not say “believe this” and that is sufficient to be saved. He said:
Why, by their fruits you shall know them. Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but **he that does the will of my Father **which is in heaven. (Matt 7:20-21)
The emphasis is on “doing,” not simply believing.
The difference, I suggest, is that Catholicism, and Christianity properly understood, have the “doing” as a cooperation with God’s grace that recreates the individual and sanctifies them supernaturally. We cannot, on our own, carry out the works (the “do this” part) necessary to bring lasting peace and happiness precisely because we are contingent and not autonomous beings. We cannot do on our own all that is necessary for true nirvana.
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Linusthe2nd
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Well then, you admit your position is based on faith. But Buddha, however fine a psychologist he may have been, was just a man. He did not have the words of eternal life. Only the Christ of the Christian had both the words interior peace and of eternal life. I think if you study the words of Christ as found in the Bible or in the lives of Christian Saints you will see that they can certainly be a source of interior peace. It would be good for you to give it a try.
We use logic only to show what reasonable men know from simple observation. But in the end we base our convictions on faith in Divine Revelation. So if the Christian God exists, and is who Christians say he is, nothing greater could be found by man. What Christianity offers man is a way to eternal life. It does not promise " nirvana, " freedom from conflict, unpleasantness, or strife in this life, it promises a peaceful conscience in this life, followed by eternal peace. That cannot be gained by nirvana. What good is nirvana without eternal life? Linus2nd
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nmgauss
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Is going to heaven equivalent to eternal life? Nirvana: The word nirvana relates to religious enlightenment; it comes from the Sanskrit meaning “extinction, disappearance” of the individual to the universal. Achieving nirvana is to make earthly feelings like suffering and desire disappear.
How does this compare to eternal life? How is eternal life lived? Does it mean the soul is eternally alive? And what is the nature of eternal life when experienced as a soul?
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rossum
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“On the one tentacle we have …, while on the other tentacle we have …, and on the other tentacle we have …”
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rossum
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I do no such thing. My position is based on evidence. The Buddha said that if you do certain things then the given results will happen. I am doing those things and the results are starting to happen, as described. That is not faith, that is evidence.
See Buddhists ‘really are happier’
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tonyrey
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Buddhists don’t have the monopoly of meditation!
The serenity, joy and fulfilment that come from a virtuous life are powerful evidence for Design because they are not accidental features of existence…
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rossum
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Of course not. The Buddha spent five years learning yoga under other teachers before he branched out on his own. Some of the Buddhist meditation techniques are shared with other traditions, such as samatha meditation. Other techniques are specific to Buddhism, such as vipassana meditation.
So, your designer is incapable of designing something that looks accidental? Obviously not an omnipotent designer then.
Even Dr Dembski acknowledges that a designer can fool people into believing that something is accidental when it is actually designed. Is a Jackson Pollock painting designed or accidental?
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Linusthe2nd
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In Catholic life there are two possibilities for eternal life ( and all of us, Christian and non-Christian will have an eternal life), eternal salvation or eternal condemnation. But here I am speaking of the eternal life of salvation. The condition of the soul in this condition will certainly include many of the elements of " nirvana, " but infinitely more. It would include eternal spiritual union with God, our creator, which would entail the fullest degree of peace and love possible for each soul, dependent on how that soul lived its life on earth. Those who lived their life with great love for God and their fellow humans on earth will enjoy the greater degree of peace and love and enligtenment.
The best source for the Mystical life for Catholics is probably the works of St. John of the Cross. I think you will be able to gain an understanding of what I have said by reading his works. THE WORKS OF SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS
Code:
ASCENT OF MT. CARMEL FROM THE BOOK: ASCENT OF MOUNT CARMEL: "This treatise explains how to reach divine union quickly. It presents instruction and doctrine valuable for beginners and proficients alike that they may learn how to unburden themselves of all earthly things, avoid spiritual obstacles, and live in that complete nakedness and freedom of spirit necessary for divine union." -----------------Saint John of the Cross **This would be the one to begin with. One must understand this before dipping into the deeper lessons.**
DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL
LIVING FLAME OF LOVE
SPIRITUAL CANTICLEvatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ( the Catechism )
usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm ( New American Bible, Revised Edition )
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Linusthe2nd
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Why not try this:
In Catholic life there are two possibilities for eternal life ( and all of us, Christian and non-Christian will have an eternal life), eternal salvation or eternal condemnation. But here I am speaking of the eternal life of salvation. The condition of the soul in this condition will certainly include many of the elements of " nirvana, " but infinitely more. It would include eternal spiritual union with God, our creator, which would entail the fullest degree of peace and love possible for each soul, dependent on how that soul lived its life on earth. Those who lived their life with great love for God and their fellow humans on earth will enjoy the greater degree of peace and love and enligtenment.
The best source for the Mystical life for Catholics is probably the works of St. John of the Cross. I think you will be able to gain an understanding of what I have said by reading his works. THE WORKS OF SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS
ASCENT OF MT. CARMEL FROM THE BOOK: ASCENT OF MOUNT CARMEL: “This treatise explains how to reach divine union quickly. It presents instruction and doctrine valuable for beginners and proficients alike that they may learn how to unburden themselves of all earthly things, avoid spiritual obstacles, and live in that complete nakedness and freedom of spirit necessary for divine union.” -----------------Saint John of the Cross This would be the one to begin with. One must understand this before dipping into the deeper lessons.
DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL
LIVING FLAME OF LOVE
SPIRITUAL CANTICLE
Together with these you need to understand what Catholics believe and the two best sources of these are the Catechism of the Catholic Church and a Catholic Bible.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ( the Catechism )
usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm ( New American Bible, Revised Edition )
Linus2nd
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buffalo
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