Biological son of Joseph

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Okay, going way off the deep end here, but think about this. Since Joseph was the direct lineage to David, not Mary. But we know Mary was a virgin when she concieved Jesus. Couldn’t it be possible that God put Joseph’s seed in Mary? This would make Jesus “The Son of Man”, and also the direct line to David and also born of a virgin.

I have never heard anyone suggest this, but it makes more sense to me than anything else.
 
It would also mean that Jesus would be born into original sin, because Joseph was born into original sin. On top of that, it would mean that God was indeed punishing Man for sin, not Himself in our place, as the Church teaches. It would also void all of the assertions that Jesus made about God being His Father, about the Father and He being One, and so forth.

There are just too many arguments against your idea. Jesus was the Son of God, because God the Holy Spirit was literally His Father. The Son of Man aspect came from His mother’s side of the family. 🙂
 
Okay, going way off the deep end here, but think about this. Since Joseph was the direct lineage to David, not Mary. But we know Mary was a virgin when she concieved Jesus. Couldn’t it be possible that God put Joseph’s seed in Mary? This would make Jesus “The Son of Man”, and also the direct line to David and also born of a virgin.

I have never heard anyone suggest this, but it makes more sense to me than anything else.
Jesus is God. He’s not anyone’s seed.
 
I hadn’t thought of that. You are correct. Thank you for the answers.
 
Okay, going way off the deep end here, but think about this. Since Joseph was the direct lineage to David, not Mary. But we know Mary was a virgin when she concieved Jesus. Couldn’t it be possible that God put Joseph’s seed in Mary? This would make Jesus “The Son of Man”, and also the direct line to David and also born of a virgin.

I have never heard anyone suggest this, but it makes more sense to me than anything else.
Bapcath,

Jesus was still a member of the royal lineage of David, even without being his “seed.” In the Jewish tradition, adopted sons retained the complete lineage and rights of the adopted father. In this regard, there is no difference in being adopted or the seed of someone.
 
I think Mary is Levite based on passages that refer to her cousin Elizabeth as a descendant of Aaron and Moses. But I am far from a bible expert.
 
Remember what the angel told Mary at the annunciation:
gospel of St. Luke Chapter 1
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Here it clearly states that the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus.
 
Also, Joseph wanted to quietly divorce Mary when he found out she was pregnant. Why would he do that if the child was his, as he was betrothed to her? It only makes sense if Joseph felt she was pregnant by someone else - and he didn’t know yet that it was the Holy Spirit.

MBS1
 
I think Mary is Levite based on passages that refer to her cousin Elizabeth as a descendant of Aaron and Moses. But I am far from a bible expert.
My personal opinion is that Mary was Levi on her mother’s side (which would answer the question about her relationship with Elizabeth, among others), Judah on her father’s side (the side thru which lineage was traced legally; this would have made Jesus a biological Son of David).
 
My personal opinion is that Mary was Levi on her mother’s side (which would answer the question about her relationship with Elizabeth, among others), Judah on her father’s side (the side thru which lineage was traced legally; this would have made Jesus a biological Son of David).
👍 👍
 
I went through RCIA about two years ago. And I probably still have a lot of Protestant religious education influencing my opinions.

The genealogy of Christ in Matthew is the genealogy of Joseph.
Matthew 1:16 “Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.”

The genealogy of Christ in Luke is the genealogy of Mary.
Luke 3:23-24 “When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, …”

Since Heli is not the same name as Jacob (and both are Joseph’s father?), and because the genealogies are different, I think the typical protestant interpretation is that Heli was Joseph’s father-in-law (Mary’s Father).

I do not know if the Roman Catholic explanation is similar.

How to figure Heli was Joseph’s father-in-law as opposed to Jacob? There are several Levi’s in the Luke genealogy and since Mary is related to Elizabeth and Zechariah (and Zechariah was a Levite), it makes more sense to conclude that Luke is Mary’s genealogy.

Note that both genealogies trace back to King David.

jmm08
 
I went through RCIA about two years ago. And I probably still have a lot of Protestant religious education influencing my opinions.

The genealogy of Christ in Matthew is the genealogy of Joseph.
Matthew 1:16 “Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.”

The genealogy of Christ in Luke is the genealogy of Mary.
Luke 3:23-24 “When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, …”

Since Heli is not the same name as Jacob (and both are Joseph’s father?), and because the genealogies are different, I think the typical protestant interpretation is that Heli was Joseph’s father-in-law (Mary’s Father).

I do not know if the Roman Catholic explanation is similar.

How to figure Heli was Joseph’s father-in-law as opposed to Jacob? There are several Levi’s in the Luke genealogy and since Mary is related to Elizabeth and Zechariah (and Zechariah was a Levite), it makes more sense to conclude that Luke is Mary’s genealogy.

Note that both genealogies trace back to King David.

jmm08
That is wrong. Both geneologies are of Jesus through Joseph. The Church does not teach that the one in Luke is through Mary.
 
That is wrong. Both geneologies are of Jesus through Joseph. The Church does not teach that the one in Luke is through Mary.
Joseph the “husband” of Mary is certainly in both genealogies. But in one perhaps it is his father-in-law’s genealogy that is listed and in the other his natural father’s genealogy.

So how do you explain that these geneologies are really very different?

Matthew 1:6 “Jesse the father of David the king. David became the father of Solomon, whose mother had been the wife of Uriah.”

Luke 3:31 “the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,” 13
footnote 13 NAB “The son of Nathan, the son of David: in keeping with Jesus’ prophetic role in Luke and Acts (e.g., Luke 7:16, 39; 9:8; 13:33; 24:19; Acts 3:22-23; 7:37) Luke traces Jesus’ Davidic ancestry through the prophet Nathan (see 2 Sam 7:2) rather than through King Solomon, as Matthew 1:6-7.”

It is rather obvious to any Bible student that Solomon (whose mother had been the wife of Uriah) was indeed a different person than Nathan.

I agree that both genealogies are genealogies including Joseph (foster father in the Holy Family).

Perhaps in the language of the original text, the word father or son is the same word as father-in-law or son-in-law. Much the same as Jesus’s brethren were really His cousins.

The following link to the Catholic encyclopedia appears to conflict with your assertion that the Catholic Church does not teach what I have supposed.

newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm

Please read under the heading “First Difficulty”:

"The convergence of the two distinct genealogical lines in the person of St. Joseph, has been explained in two ways:

(a) St. Matthew’s genealogy is that of St. Joseph; St. Luke’s, that of the Blessed Virgin. …"

And I suppose that the original poster of this question should read the article in the Catholic encyclopedia which actually goes into length on this matter.

I also think that the explanation believed by St. Augustine is rather rational. And I think it is at least equally possible:

Same article in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“But [Saint] Augustine was the first to abandon this [his own] theory after learning the explanation offered by Julius Africanus. According to the latter, Estha married Mathan, a descendant of David through Solomon, and became the mother of Jacob; after Mathan’s death she took for her second husband Mathat, a descendent of David through Nathan, and by him became the mother of Heli. Jacob and Heli were, therefore, uterine brothers [half-brothers with same mother]. Heli married, but died without offspring; his widow, therefore, became the levirate wife of Jacob, and gave birth to Joseph, who was the carnal son of Jacob, but the legal son of Heli, thus combining in his person two lineages of David’s descendants.”

In the book of Leviticus, it was the Jewish custom that if a married man died without having children, his wife was to be married to his brother so that the dead man’s lineage could continue.

jmm08
 
I disagree with any notion that the lineage was unimportant. There are specific prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah, and these prophecies are fulfilled in only one historical person – Jesus. The genealogy is included in the Gospel of Matthew because it was important that Jews could see the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies.

Luke included a genealogy as well.

It is very interesting that with both of the genealogies, descent is through the lineage of David. And that it includes the prophet Nathan and it includes a Levitical Priestly lineage.

I refer readers to my ealier reply in section 1 where I suggest that the best answer to the original poster can be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia article on this topic.

newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm

jmm08
 
I disagree with any notion that the lineage was unimportant. There are specific prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah, and these prophecies are fulfilled in only one historical person – Jesus. The genealogy is included in the Gospel of Matthew because it was important that Jews could see the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies.

Luke included a genealogy as well.

It is very interesting that with both of the genealogies, descent is through the lineage of David. And that it includes the prophet Nathan and it includes a Levitical Priestly lineage.

I refer readers to my ealier reply in section 1 where I suggest that the best answer to the original poster can be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia article on this topic.

newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm

jmm08
I never said lineage was unimportant. It most certainly is.

Sorry you read into my post, something that was not there.
 
Jesus is God. He’s not anyone’s seed.
See newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm which I quote

The first prophecy referring to Mary is found in the very opening chapters of the Book of Genesis (3:15): “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”

Jesus is the seed of Mary. And Jesus is God. And Jesus was fully human. We have such dogmas as Mary the Mother of God, and the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

jmm08
 
Joseph the “husband” of Mary is certainly in both genealogies. But in one perhaps it is his father-in-law’s genealogy that is listed and in the other his natural father’s genealogy.

So how do you explain that these geneologies are really very different?

Matthew 1:6 “Jesse the father of David the king. David became the father of Solomon, whose mother had been the wife of Uriah.”

Luke 3:31 “the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,” 13
footnote 13 NAB “The son of Nathan, the son of David: in keeping with Jesus’ prophetic role in Luke and Acts (e.g., Luke 7:16, 39; 9:8; 13:33; 24:19; Acts 3:22-23; 7:37) Luke traces Jesus’ Davidic ancestry through the prophet Nathan (see 2 Sam 7:2) rather than through King Solomon, as Matthew 1:6-7.”

It is rather obvious to any Bible student that Solomon (whose mother had been the wife of Uriah) was indeed a different person than Nathan.

I agree that both genealogies are genealogies including Joseph (foster father in the Holy Family).

Perhaps in the language of the original text, the word father or son is the same word as father-in-law or son-in-law. Much the same as Jesus’s brethren were really His cousins.

The following link to the Catholic encyclopedia appears to conflict with your assertion that the Catholic Church does not teach what I have supposed.

newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm

Please read under the heading “First Difficulty”:

"The convergence of the two distinct genealogical lines in the person of St. Joseph, has been explained in two ways:

(a) St. Matthew’s genealogy is that of St. Joseph; St. Luke’s, that of the Blessed Virgin. …"

And I suppose that the original poster of this question should read the article in the Catholic encyclopedia which actually goes into length on this matter.

I also think that the explanation believed by St. Augustine is rather rational. And I think it is at least equally possible:

Same article in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“But [Saint] Augustine was the first to abandon this [his own] theory after learning the explanation offered by Julius Africanus. According to the latter, Estha married Mathan, a descendant of David through Solomon, and became the mother of Jacob; after Mathan’s death she took for her second husband Mathat, a descendent of David through Nathan, and by him became the mother of Heli. Jacob and Heli were, therefore, uterine brothers [half-brothers with same mother]. Heli married, but died without offspring; his widow, therefore, became the levirate wife of Jacob, and gave birth to Joseph, who was the carnal son of Jacob, but the legal son of Heli, thus combining in his person two lineages of David’s descendants.”

In the book of Leviticus, it was the Jewish custom that if a married man died without having children, his wife was to be married to his brother so that the dead man’s lineage could continue.

jmm08
There are many many threads on this topic in these forums where posters have given much better explanations than I would be able to. You should do a search.

If the lineages are different (one through Joseph and one through Mary) why would the Church not teach this?
 
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