Biretta's

  • Thread starter Thread starter childofmary1143
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
jkarp said:
That’s what I thought. This is a very interesting discussion.
Click to expand...
I think we may be confusing forms. I would think that they likely can under the Novus Ordo Mass (can there be such a thing as a High Mass) because the Subdiaconate does not exist, but under the Tridentine Mass it would seem impossible. An Acolyte simply has not been ordained to the next “rung”, i.e. subdeacon. It would be like a Deacon acting as PRiest!
 
markadm said:
I think we may be confusing forms. I would think that they likely can under the Novus Ordo Mass (can there be such a thing as a High Mass) because the Subdiaconate does not exist, but under the Tridentine Mass it would seem impossible. An Acolyte simply has not been ordained to the next “rung”, i.e. subdeacon. It would be like a Deacon acting as PRiest!
Click to expand...
Not exactly. For one thing because the diaconate and priesthood are different sacraments, and have different characters imprinted. And of course, the deacon does not possess the power to offer sacrifice.

With the other orders, it is a function, at least at Mass, of ministering in different degrees. That is, it is not intrinsic, like the power to offer sacrifice, but an authority given by the Church which can be changed. Nonetheless, the subdeacon-subsitute cannot do certain things that a ‘normal’ subdeacon would- such as wear the maniple, the badge of the subdiaconate, or touch the sacred vessels.
 
AJV said:
Not exactly. For one thing because the diaconate and priesthood are different sacraments, and have different characters imprinted. And of course, the deacon does not possess the power to offer sacrifice.

.
Click to expand...
The diaconate is not a different sacraments. There is only one sacrament of Holy Orders. The difference is in the order one is ordained into … deacon, prebyster or bishop. If it were a different sacrament that would make the number of sacraments more than 7. But you are right that different characters are imprinted, but there is an ontological change for all three orders.
 
Joannm said:
The diaconate is not a different sacraments. There is only one sacrament of Holy Orders. The difference is in the order one is ordained into … deacon, prebyster or bishop. If it were a different sacrament that would make the number of sacraments more than 7. But you are right that different characters are imprinted, but there is an ontological change for all three orders.
Click to expand...
Whoops…imprecise terminology…yes, you’re right. Thanks.👍
 
AJV said:
Not exactly. For one thing because the diaconate and priesthood are different sacraments, and have different characters imprinted. And of course, the deacon does not possess the power to offer sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Joannm said:
The diaconate is not a different sacraments. There is only one sacrament of Holy Orders. The difference is in the order one is ordained into … deacon, prebyster or bishop. If it were a different sacrament that would make the number of sacraments more than 7. But you are right that different characters are imprinted, but there is an ontological change for all three orders.
Click to expand...
I think that the another appropriate term is vocation.
 
Cristiano said:
I do not think so. They are instituted but not ordained, and they are not a minor order anymore.
Click to expand...
I think people call altar servers (which are instituted or installed) “acolytes,” but I don’t think they technically are. I think in order to be a true acolyte, one must be ordained. I am not certain though, I could be wrong . . . 🤷
 
jkarp said:
I think people call altar servers (which are instituted or installed) “acolytes,” but I don’t think they technically are. I think in order to be a true acolyte, one must be ordained. I am not certain though, I could be wrong . . . 🤷
Click to expand...
Altar servers are not instituted by the Bishop. A “proper” acolyte is installed by the Bishop; however not a lot of dioceses do that. Ordination is only for Holy Orders (Bishop, Priest, and Deacon).
 
jkarp said:
I think people call altar servers (which are instituted or installed) “acolytes,” but I don’t think they technically are. I think in order to be a true acolyte, one must be ordained. I am not certain though, I could be wrong . . . 🤷
Click to expand...
“True” acolytes are installed. A few years before ordination to the diaconate or the priesthood, those in formation are formally installed by the bishop as a Lector and then the next year as an Acolyte.
 
Joannm said:
“True” acolytes are installed. A few years before ordination to the diaconate or the priesthood, those in formation are formally installed by the bishop as a Lector and then the next year as an Acolyte.
Click to expand...
** Catholic Encyclopedia: Acolyte**
An acolyte is a cleric promoted to the fourth and highest minor order in the Latin Church, ranking next to a subdeacon. The chief offices of an acolyte are to light the candles on the altar, to carry them in procession, and during the solemn singing of the Gospel; to prepare wine and water for the sacrifice of the Mass; and to assist the sacred ministers at the Mass, and other public services of the Church.** In the ordination of an acolyte** the bishop presents him with a candle, extinguished, and an empty cruet, using appropriate words expressive of these duties.
Click to expand...
Now I suppose that it is possible that this has changed since the publishing of the article, does anybody know if it has? My understanding is that any of the **orders **(major or minor) have to be ordained (both words being from the same Latin root: *ordinare - *to arrange or appoint).
 
Cristiano said:
Altar servers are not instituted by the Bishop.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say by a Bishop, but I can see your point, I guess technically altar servers would be commissioned or appointed.
Cristiano said:
A “proper” acolyte is installed by the Bishop; however not a lot of dioceses do that. Ordination is only for Holy Orders (Bishop, Priest, and Deacon).
Click to expand...
Please see my previous post.
 
Cristiano said:
Ordination is only for Holy Orders (Bishop, Priest, and Deacon).
Click to expand...
jkarp said:
My understanding is that any of the **orders **(major or minor) have to be ordained (both words being from the same Latin root: *ordinare - *to arrange or appoint).
Click to expand...
“Ordination” is not limited to Holy Orders, as jkarp’s citation shows. This often confuses people when they are confronted with the evidence that deaconesses were “ordained” in the early Church. If you look back through (at least Latin, I’m not as familiar with Greek) history, though, you’ll find that, indeed, the act of “instituting” or “appointing” someone to an order was often referred to as ordination. So ordination is not limited to the conferral of Holy Orders. It is simply one way of talking about what happens when conferring these different stages of orders. To show the flip side of this fluidity of terms, one could also dispute Cristiano’s point that ordination is limited to bishops, priests, and deacons by showing that bishops were often not “ordained” but “consecrated;” IIRC Newadvent spells out the theological debate over whether it was even proper to say that someone had been ordained a bishop.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
“Ordination” is not limited to Holy Orders, as jkarp’s citation shows. This often confuses people when they are confronted with the evidence that deaconesses were “ordained” in the early Church. If you look back through (at least Latin, I’m not as familiar with Greek) history, though, you’ll find that, indeed, the act of “instituting” or “appointing” someone to an order was often referred to as ordination. So ordination is not limited to the conferral of Holy Orders. It is simply one way of talking about what happens when conferring these different stages of orders. To show the flip side of this fluidity of terms, one could also dispute Cristiano’s point that ordination is limited to bishops, priests, and deacons by showing that bishops were often not “ordained” but “consecrated;” IIRC Newadvent spells out the theological debate over whether it was even proper to say that someone had been ordained a bishop.
Click to expand...
You are making a very valid point. My concern is that, given the extendibility of the word ordination and the elimination of the minor orders, people will start to consider EMHCs as ordained people! :o
 
GerardP said:
The Norbertines have the unique distinction of wearing the white biretta.

I was looking around for a picture of one but couldn’t find it for the moment.
Click to expand...
The Canons of Lagrasse wear white as well.
 
It’s certainly nice to see a white Norbertine biretta, but NOT during a procession of the Blessed Sacrament, when uncovered heads are to prevail! :eek:
 
Cristiano said:
You are making a very valid point. My concern is that, given the extendibility of the word ordination and the elimination of the minor orders, people will start to consider EMHCs as ordained people! :o
Click to expand...
I discussed the question with Archbishop Eusebius Beltran (Archdiocese of Oklahoma City) yesturday (2/16/08) and he definitively answered the question. His Excellency said, “It is very easy, deacons, priests, and bishops are ordained, everyone else is installed.” So there it is. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top