Birth control and non-Catholics

[Princess18]

This one has LOTS of information from peer-reviewed sources

Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?

 

[TLara]

Thank you Jennifer J, Need Improvement, Princess18 for the info. I am sorry if my posts seem harsh but, when it comes to this topic I sometimes rant. BlestOne, I always look forward to your post. Your knowledge and humility are greatly appreciated.

God Bless

 

[emeraldcoast]

I’m not saying it never happened - obviously, it did. But if you were a Church-going person living in a working class or middle class neighborhood where people were mostly law-abiding, you would not have run across it - it would have been considered one of those things that “bad” people do, in a different part of town or else a different region of the country.

It’s not God you have to thank for that, but Josef Mengele - his experiments on Jewish prisoners at Auschwitz and other internment camps are what give us these technologies. Personally, I wouldn’t go anywhere near it - I happen to like my gene pool, even with its “imperfections”.

Just noticed this post, and was somewhat taken aback by its tone. I did a quick search on the Web and could not find a direct link between Auschwitz experiments and IVF - only inflammatory comparisons between Auschwitz experiments and IVF research. If you know of a site that provides a documented link, not just pro-life propaganda for the unenlightened, please provide.

As a Christian, I know that all life comes from God. Even if IVF was somehow derived from the horrific experiments during the Holocaust, wouldn’t it even be more wondrous that from that evil God could create a true miracle - the birth of a human life to a loving, Godly couple? IVF has blessed my family and others, with no thought of genetic or gender selection. How is that a bad, evil thing? Frankly, attitudes like yours make it difficult for many people to embrace a pro-life stance with respect to abortion. No one likes abortion, but you folks would throw the baby (IVF and other aids to conception) out with the bathwater (abortion). I find it ironic, and somewhat two-faced, that the same denomination that preaches “natural family planning” - which in many cases translates to many children whether you want them or not - so roundly condemns a God-given gift that lets us bring more wanted and loved children in the world. I wish you guys would make up your mind - do you want families to be blessed with many children, or should we only have children in a way that a bunch of celibate old men dictate?

If you know anything about IVF, it is a true miracle from God when it works, just as when conception occurs “according to Hoyle” (or Benedict, John Paul, Pius, etc.). I find it sad that so many try to dismiss or even outlaw these truly blessed events.

God Bless!

 

[TriuneUnity]

If you know anything about IVF, it is a true miracle from God when it works, just as when conception occurs “according to Hoyle” (or Benedict, John Paul, Pius, etc.). I find it sad that so many try to dismiss or even outlaw these truly blessed events.

God Bless!

Tough situation, emerald. A lot of questions are raised by this and we cannot dismiss them out of hand. Do the ends justify the means? I agree…anytime a child is conceived regardless of the method involved… it is something fearfully and wonderfully made by God.

But along with the child who is born…God also gave life to the embryos which die as a result of IVF.

 

[Jennifer_J]

As a Christian, I know that all life comes from God. Even if IVF was somehow derived from the horrific experiments during the Holocaust, wouldn’t it even be more wondrous that from that evil God could create a true miracle - the birth of a human life to a loving, Godly couple? IVF has blessed my family and others, with no thought of genetic or gender selection. How is that a bad, evil thing? Frankly, attitudes like yours make it difficult for many people to embrace a pro-life stance with respect to abortion. No one likes abortion, but you folks would throw the baby (IVF and other aids to conception) out with the bathwater (abortion). I find it ironic, and somewhat two-faced, that the same denomination that preaches “natural family planning” - which in many cases translates to many children whether you want them or not - so roundly condemns a God-given gift that lets us bring more wanted and loved children in the world. I wish you guys would make up your mind - do you want families to be blessed with many children, or should we only have children in a way that a bunch of celibate old men dictate?

If you know anything about IVF, it is a true miracle from God when it works, just as when conception occurs “according to Hoyle” (or Benedict, John Paul, Pius, etc.). I find it sad that so many try to dismiss or even outlaw these truly blessed events.

God Bless!

I don’t know anything about the link to the horrors of Auschwitz, however, IVF is immoral because it seperates the procreative aspect of marriage from the unitive and also, these techniques can lead to the mistaken idea that having children is a right and not a gift from God. I sympathize and empathize with those who struggel with infertility, however, no one has a “right” to children. This teaching of the Church against tampering with our fertility, is consistant and logical. The children created via IVF are, of course great miracles, just as those who are conceived naturally. However, that doesn’t take away from the fact that all IVF methods are in direct contradiction to Catholic teaching on the gift of human sexuality AND that most of the time “excess” embryoes are made and frozen/discarded/used for experiments. This is human life at it’s most vulnerable and we don’t have the right to do such things to people who can’t even defend or speak for themselves.

 

[jmcrae]

If you know anything about IVF, it is a true miracle from God when it works, just as when conception occurs “according to Hoyle” (or Benedict, John Paul, Pius, etc.). I find it sad that so many try to dismiss or even outlaw these truly blessed events.

God Bless!

Apart from the huge number of children aborted or perpetually frozen for every child that survives the IVF process, IVF separates the procreative aspect of sex from its unitive aspect - in other words, it has the same problem as artificial birth control, except it is for the opposite purpose.

 

[February]

I believe the AC changed its attitude beginning in the 1920’s. Birth control jad become feasible and there was a lot of medical sociological research beginning to be published about the advantages of spacing families.

But the main point is that no other religion, whether Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, or Islam issues edicts regarding the conduct of one’s personal life. Leaders might have opinions,but they aren’t binding. There is *no other pope-equivalent *in any other major religion, including Islam. The notorious fundamentalist Mormons in Texas and small fundamentalist groups may be an exception. Even ultra-Orthodox Jews allow birth control and sterilization for medical reasons. Hutterite and Amish families are smaller now than in the past.

A little late to this thread, but had to comment on this statement…

As we Catholics heard in today’s gospel, (albeit a bit paraphrased) “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

Interesting that you used the word “binding”, since that is exactly what Jesus tells Peter, and is what holds true of Peter’s successors. Our popes are merely following our Lord’s words. Contraception is a “personal” issue that deals with life, so of course the Catholic church is going to have a “binding” say on the matter.

Also, you can add me to the “statistics” of birth control wreaking havoc on a woman’s body. I wasn’t even on the pill for six months and I had mood swings, broke out terribly, my breasts were constantly sore, and I developed a lump in my breast, to name a few. Given the fact that before this I had been healthy (verified at the dr’s visit in which I was prescribed the pill) except for having cramps each month, I don’t think the lump just developed on its own.

(An anecdote I might have posted here before, I don’t remember. After I discovered the lump, I was looking at the rosary on my nightstand, which was next to the pack of pills. I asked the Lord if birth control was really evil, and absentmindedly flipped on the radio. There was INXS singing, “the devil inside, the devil inside”. Coincidence? Maybe…but those pills went in the trash that night.)

 

[Calliso]

Here is my attempt to get this thread back on track…

Chemical means of BC kill babies after conception…for anyone to be able to call themselves a christian and think the pill is OK is beyond me. Children and babies are the most vulnerable and innocent in our society. They are in need of our protection. From very early on in a pregnancy, the baby has it’s own unique DNA and blood. It is a separate being so to abort is to kill an innocent child… I can just hear some of you screaming at your monitors as you read this, “Wait, what about rape?” So here goes… why would you kill an innocent child because you were violated? That child didn’t violate you! Sure prosecute the heck out of the rapist, but don’t kill an innocent life because you were hurt. Studies show that women who are impregnated due to rape and choose to keep their babies heal from the trauma much better and quicker than women who get abortions from rape.

There is a young lady at my parish who was raped and found herself pregnant. She kept her baby even though she was a junior in high school… I am so proud of her! She loves her child and she is a testament to God’s love. It is amazing to see her with her child… and even she admits that this wasn’t what she planned but so much better than her plan. She knows God has a purpose and she is surrendering her will to HIM.

What has a child ever done to receive the death sentence NOTHING!

Now about choices and being pro-choice: Choices are made before actions are taken… you choose to take the chance of getting pregnant before the HPT is positive… you choose when you choose to have sex. You know it is possible to become pregnant even with birth control… the choice is made when you decide that you want to have sex!

You know I think it;s a bit unfair to question the christianity of people who think the pill is ok. Iassume you are talking about the various birth control pills right? Especially considering it is certainly not clear whether or not God is against artificial forms of birth control or any attempts to control our fertility at all. I mean if it was I am sure there would be far less arguements about it.

 

[NeedImprovement]

… Especially considering it is certainly not clear whether or not God is against artificial forms of birth control or any attempts to control our fertility at all. I mean if it was I am sure there would be far less arguements about it.

Well that might be partially attributable to this little problem we keep running into: Although we humans are created in God’s image, we have this tendency to re-create God in our own image.

 

[BlestOne]

You know I think it;s a bit unfair to question the christianity of people who think the pill is ok. Iassume you are talking about the various birth control pills right? Especially considering it is certainly not clear whether or not God is against artificial forms of birth control or any attempts to control our fertility at all. I mean if it was I am sure there would be far less arguements about it.

I am sorry you feel this way. My point is that abortifacients kill babies after conception, and that is murder. God certainly is against murder, especially of innocents…like a baby. Controlling fertility is not the issue murder is. I have said it many many times here… you don’t decide it isn’t the right time for a baby when the HPT is positive… you make that decision before you have sex and create that new life.

 

[elts1956]

You know I think it;s a bit unfair to question the christianity of people who think the pill is ok. Iassume you are talking about the various birth control pills right? Especially considering it is certainly not clear whether or not God is against artificial forms of birth control or any attempts to control our fertility at all. I mean if it was I am sure there would be far less arguements about it.

I personally don’t question the Christianity of people who think the pill is ok, but I am questioning their lack of knowledge and education. I believe, no proof of course, just personal experience, that most people who think the pill is acceptable, DO NOT realize they are abortificants and end the lives of the most helpless of humans.

 

[elts1956]

You know I think it;s a bit unfair to question the christianity of people who think the pill is ok. Iassume you are talking about the various birth control pills right? Especially considering it is certainly not clear whether or not God is against artificial forms of birth control or any attempts to control our fertility at all. I mean if it was I am sure there would be far less arguements about it.

I am not opposed to NFP for those of a couple–BOTH of them–who want to use it but I find this sort of preoccupation with the female bodily functions disturbing. All that temperature taking, and preoccupation with genitalia, no less, palpating the vulva, wiggling the cervix, testing the cervical mucus, I think is disgusting and excessively focussed on the female cycle, which the human race, especially men have disparaged and proscribed for centuries–dirty menstrual cycles, mandatory mikva after the period, no bat mitzva because a girl might be menstruating when she touches the Torah–horrors!-- all that sort of stuff.

It’s also not reliable for the vast majority of its practitioners.

I’m a physician, by the way.

The vast majority of RC’s use ‘artificial’ birth control which has become safer, more predictable and cheaper–with many options, including reliable barriers–with each passing year.

The proscription of artificial birth control was the opening wedge in the divorce of the average Catholic from the official church in the US and Europe, the cradle of RC and where the money is. If it weren’t for all the money still coming from the US to the Vatican, the US church would have been in schism years ago.

Then as a phycisian, you are aware that bcps are abortificants???

 

[sola_scriptura]

I think marriage is the only proper place for sexual relations. However, I also think promulgating rules for marital relations is perhaps legalistic. For instance, the premise of prohibiting birth control within marriage is to promulgate child rearing (and some Old Testament passages that indicate a man should not waste his seed & of course be fruitful and multiply).

So what about older couples past child bearing age? Does this mean when I hit 50 I can’t have sex anymore because my wife (to be – I’m not married yet) cannot bear children? I understand the comeback will be that I won’t be using birth control – but I’m more interested in following the logical rabbit tail of why prohibit the practice in the first place?

On abortion – it’s wrong. God gives us a soul at conception (see Jeremiah 1:5).

 

[jmcrae]

I think marriage is the only proper place for sexual relations. However, I also think promulgating rules for marital relations is perhaps legalistic. For instance, the premise of prohibiting birth control within marriage is to promulgate child rearing (and some Old Testament passages that indicate a man should not waste his seed & of course be fruitful and multiply).

So what about older couples past child bearing age? Does this mean when I hit 50 I can’t have sex anymore because my wife (to be – I’m not married yet) cannot bear children?

The sex act must be open to life - the possibility of life doesn’t have to be reasonable, though - the act itself is what needs to be open.

I understand the comeback will be that I won’t be using birth control – but I’m more interested in following the logical rabbit tail of why prohibit the practice in the first place?

Because the purpose of the sex act is unity and procreation.

Some people give the comparison of eating - would you eat and then throw up, or put a bag into your mouth to prevent swallowing? When people start behaving like this we send them to the hospital, because we know that such behaviour is seriously disordered.

But they might respond, “I like to taste my food and to chew it, but I don’t actually want to swallow it, because I’m not really hungry.” Most of us would say, “Don’t be ridiculous - if you’re not hungry, do something else for entertainment - you don’t have to eat all the time.”

On abortion – it’s wrong. God gives us a soul at conception (see Jeremiah 1:5).

Which cuts out most of the methods of artificial birth control that are out there - condoms are about the only thing that don’t actually kill kids, as long as you don’t use chemical additives with them.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

11 Pages to read , only page I’ve been readen !!
Too much for me !!

Birth control and non-Catholics:

Here is my personal view:
I’m not against , like a condom can be useful !!
Even it’s a life-killer , it can save lifes !!
Why ??
Some people can hold their needs ,
and some of them can’t be trust (hidden deceases) !!
So in that case it’s up to you to say NO ,
And that’s a/the big problem for some !!
Prevention is better than cure !!

Prevention 1 = by saying no (the best)
Prevention 2 = by using birth control

Deceases doesn’t care you’re catholic , communist ,
facist , optimist , pessimist , …

Or what about birth controle in prostitution ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 25, 2008

 

[Calliso]

The sex act must be open to life - the possibility of life doesn’t have to be reasonable, though - the act itself is what needs to be open.

Because the purpose of the sex act is unity and procreation.

Some people give the comparison of eating - would you eat and then throw up, or put a bag into your mouth to prevent swallowing? When people start behaving like this we send them to the hospital, because we know that such behaviour is seriously disordered.

But they might respond, “I like to taste my food and to chew it, but I don’t actually want to swallow it, because I’m not really hungry.” Most of us would say, “Don’t be ridiculous - if you’re not hungry, do something else for entertainment - you don’t have to eat all the time.”

Which cuts out most of the methods of artificial birth control that are out there - condoms are about the only thing that don’t actually kill kids, as long as you don’t use chemical additives with them.

I dontl think the eating concept really fits though. I mean if you donlt eat you die. Not having babies or getting pregnant doesn;t kill people. In fact having that happen has killed a lot of people…

 

[Calliso]

I personally don’t question the Christianity of people who think the pill is ok, but I am questioning their lack of knowledge and education. I believe, no proof of course, just personal experience, that most people who think the pill is acceptable, DO NOT realize they are abortificants and end the lives of the most helpless of humans.

Maybe…though I think that most people know or at least have an idea how the pill works…I am likely wrong though. I read a lot so I knew how it worked almost from the point I got em.

 

[Calliso]

I am sorry you feel this way. My point is that abortifacients kill babies after conception, and that is murder. God certainly is against murder, especially of innocents…like a baby. Controlling fertility is not the issue murder is. I have said it many many times here… you don’t decide it isn’t the right time for a baby when the HPT is positive… you make that decision before you have sex and create that new life.

What;s HPT mean? And yes God is against murder…but I guess I have trouble with the concept of a blastocyst as a baby or child. And yes people shouldn;t have sex if they are not willing to accept the possiblity of a baby. But that doesn;t mean to try and stop it from happening.

 

[jmcrae]

I dontl think the eating concept really fits though. I mean if you donlt eat you die.

True, but we eat to nourish our bodies, and the nice taste and texture of the food is a happy side effect - we don’t eat because it tastes good but then try not to have it go into our bodies.

Not having babies or getting pregnant doesn’t kill people. In fact having that happen has killed a lot of people…

Not having sex never killed anyone, either. But there are so many forms of birth control that kill people every day - granted, they are people that we can’t see or recognize as being people - but just because we can’t see them or recognize them doesn’t mean that they weren’t there. Science shows us that we are fully human from the moment of conception, even when we are only a microscopic one-celled being. The independent movement of that one-celled human being indicates to us that she has a human soul - she is alive. If she dies on the way down to the womb, she will go to the Judgment Day and then either to Heaven or to Hell, just like every other human being.

 

[sola_scriptura]

The sex act must be open to life - the possibility of life doesn’t have to be reasonable, though - the act itself is what needs to be open.

after menopause their is no possibility of life – it’s not just unreasonable but impossible. So the act is not “open” to procreation

Which cuts out most of the methods of artificial birth control that are out there - condoms are about the only thing that don’t actually kill kids, as long as you don’t use chemical additives with them.

The pill (as far as I know – I’m no doctor ) does not terminate a pregnancy (nor do other forms of female birth control) – only the abortion pill does this.

It’s at conception that a life is formed in the womb – eggs or sperm by themselves are not life. So I fail to see your logic here?

If we were to say contraceptives should not be used by Christians because generally they are used in tandem with fornication that would be one thing – but to engage in semantics like condoms can be used but only ones that do not have chemical additives is legalistic.

To me it’s better to approach this issue by preaching pre-marital sex is wrong & we are to be fruitful and multiply once married (which is all God had to say about it). That pretty much does the trick without plunging a church into speculation over what God thinks of chemical additives No one can argue this sort of stuff was pondered by the Apostolic Fathers.

Paul even said if we like sex get married. I keep hearing the idea advanced that if we cannot control our sexual urges then how can we keep any oath. This is preposterous. Celibacy is a calling. God does not call all His people for the same purpose (another thing Paul makes clear). Moreover, I doubt Roe (or actually at this point Casey v. Planned Parenthood of PA is the controlling case law) much less Griswold (the pre-Roe case making use of contraceptives a fundamental right) will be overturned. So we may as well keep with the core function of the church, which is to evangelize and find the lost sheep. They will respond to Christ because they were foreordained by God; and in the same vein they will turn from sin and ultimately come to keep the commandments – because God will work in them to both will and do. The way we can shape society is to turn more people to Christ. We should be viewed as an instrument of love rather than one trying to push our views on people.

St. Francis of Assisi used to take his monks and travel from town to town in Northern Italy and work to beautify the town. They would build parks, clean streets, help the sick, and many other things – without once mentioning religion. They would stay and do these things for a couple weeks, and as they were set to leave the towns folk would invariably ask them why they did what they did. Then they would evangelize. As we know today it worked wonderfully. We just don’t see this type of work or evangelizing done today – at least not here in the US, and it’s a shame. We get involved with these sort of absurd debates that mires us down in politics and bickering, while lost souls are left dangling. Anyway, my two cents.