Birth control and non-Catholics

[Syele]

The pill (as far as I know – I’m no doctor ) does not terminate a pregnancy (nor do other forms of female birth control) – only the abortion pill does this.

It’s at conception that a life is formed in the womb – eggs or sperm by themselves are not life. So I fail to see your logic here?

Please read some of the links posted in this thread and pray about it. Many of them have very good information. The Pill and other chemical BC DO terminate a life after conception and before implantation, not simply prevent sperm and egg from combining… That is the logic here. The abortion pill does this as a PRIMARY function. Other BC methods do it as a SECONDARY function. It’s the chemical additives that are killing babies. If they had a form of BC that is chemical and does not cause abortions EVER then I might agree with you. Many doctors say that life is formed at implantation not at conception, then feel justified in saying its not an abortion.

I personally don’t question the Christianity of people who think the pill is ok, but I am questioning their lack of knowledge and education. I believe, no proof of course, just personal experience, that most people who think the pill is acceptable, DO NOT realize they are abortificants and end the lives of the most helpless of humans.

I agree with this. Most people don’t know, and their Doctors aren’t telling them either. I’ve had people I mentioned it to react with total shock and disbelief. more with that reaction than not. Protestants using BC wont decrease till its commonly known, because while Protestants mostly do not have this same “open to life” rule, The vast majority ARE against abortion in any form. sola_scripturas post is a perfect example if this.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The pill (as far as I know – I’m no doctor ) does not terminate a pregnancy (nor do other forms of female birth control) – only the abortion pill does this…
QUOTE]

It’s possible sola, that a glance at the document provided by the following link might persuade you to re-evaluate that particular statement:

aaplog.org/collition.htm

 

[BlestOne]

What;s HPT mean? And yes God is against murder…but I guess I have trouble with the concept of a blastocyst as a baby or child. And yes people shouldn;t have sex if they are not willing to accept the possiblity of a baby. But that doesn;t mean to try and stop it from happening.

HPT=Home Pregnancy Test
yes, even a fertilized egg is a unique human being… a being created of the union of a man and a woman from God the Creator…

Early Stages of Pregnancy:
Step #1: Fertilization (mating à the egg and sperm unite to form the zygote)
Step #2: Cleavage (rapid cell division in first 24-48 hours; no growth)
Step #3: Blastocyst forms (hollow ball of cells with inner and outer layers)
Step #4: Gastrulation (arrangement of cells into 3 germ layers)
Step #5: Implantation (zygote attaches to uterus wall – officially an embryo)
Within a few hours of conception, tiny hair-like structures called cilia (found in the oviduct) push the zygote towards the uterus. During this journey to the uterus, the zygote starts the process of cell division.

At around 4 days, the zygote is a 16-cell mass and it enters the uterus where it floats freely for about 2 days.

Cleavage is the term used for the rapid division of cells that happens in the first 24-48 hours after fertilization. There is little/no growth in the size of the zygote.

At around 6 days, the zygote has become mass of more than 100 cells called a Blastocyst and it has the shape of a hollow ball with inner and outer layers.
The out layer will become the placenta and the inner layer will become the fetus.
Gastrulation is the arrangement of cells into 3 distinct germ layers.

At around 6 days, the zygote has become mass of more than 100 cells called a Blastocyst and it has the shape of a hollow ball with inner and outer layers.
The out layer will become the placenta and the inner layer will become the fetus.
Gastrulation is the arrangement of cells into 3 distinct germ layers.

About DNA…The human zygote is indeed a prodigious entity. Although it is no larger than a grain of sugar,“3 it contains a complete genetic code, all the DNA and all the genes that a complete human being will ever need. The single-cell zygote initiates a development that progresses to the 30-trillion- cell adult.” At the same time, it exerts biochemical and hormonal influences on the mother as it begins to control and direct the process of pregnancy, a power amplification, considering its minuscule size in relation to that of the mother, that is utterly astonishing. Moreover, it will impress itself, through its DNA, on all the generations of its descendants just as all the generations of its ancestors have impressed their own genotype on it.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3798/is_200004/ai_n8886269/pg_3

Sooooooo… yes even a blastocyst is a human being with it’s own unique DNA separate from the mother.

 

[jmcrae]

after menopause their is no possibility of life – it’s not just unreasonable but impossible. So the act is not “open” to procreation

It is in the sense that the couple isn’t doing anything to stop the possibility.

The pill (as far as I know – I’m no doctor ) does not terminate a pregnancy (nor do other forms of female birth control) – only the abortion pill does this.

The Pill works (and other chemicals also work the same way) precisely because if it doesn’t prevent pregnancy, it prevents implantation. The child has been alive for three days before implantation.

 

[Thinks4Himself]

The Pill PREVENTS preganancy, there is NO CHILD (BEFORE) implantation

The Pill isnt an abortificiant. Though I am against it and just in favor of condoms and nfp.

 

[jmcrae]

The Pill PREVENTS preganancy, there is NO CHILD (BEFORE) implantation

Yes, there is - fertilization (conception) occurs three days before implantation.

 

[Calliso]

HPT=Home Pregnancy Test
yes, even a fertilized egg is a unique human being… a being created of the union of a man and a woman from God the Creator…

Early Stages of Pregnancy:
Step #1: Fertilization (mating à the egg and sperm unite to form the zygote)
Step #2: Cleavage (rapid cell division in first 24-48 hours; no growth)
Step #3: Blastocyst forms (hollow ball of cells with inner and outer layers)
Step #4: Gastrulation (arrangement of cells into 3 germ layers)
Step #5: Implantation (zygote attaches to uterus wall – officially an embryo)
Within a few hours of conception, tiny hair-like structures called cilia (found in the oviduct) push the zygote towards the uterus. During this journey to the uterus, the zygote starts the process of cell division.

At around 4 days, the zygote is a 16-cell mass and it enters the uterus where it floats freely for about 2 days.

Cleavage is the term used for the rapid division of cells that happens in the first 24-48 hours after fertilization. There is little/no growth in the size of the zygote.

At around 6 days, the zygote has become mass of more than 100 cells called a Blastocyst and it has the shape of a hollow ball with inner and outer layers.
The out layer will become the placenta and the inner layer will become the fetus.
Gastrulation is the arrangement of cells into 3 distinct germ layers.

At around 6 days, the zygote has become mass of more than 100 cells called a Blastocyst and it has the shape of a hollow ball with inner and outer layers.
The out layer will become the placenta and the inner layer will become the fetus.
Gastrulation is the arrangement of cells into 3 distinct germ layers.

About DNA…The human zygote is indeed a prodigious entity. Although it is no larger than a grain of sugar,“3 it contains a complete genetic code, all the DNA and all the genes that a complete human being will ever need. The single-cell zygote initiates a development that progresses to the 30-trillion- cell adult.” At the same time, it exerts biochemical and hormonal influences on the mother as it begins to control and direct the process of pregnancy, a power amplification, considering its minuscule size in relation to that of the mother, that is utterly astonishing. Moreover, it will impress itself, through its DNA, on all the generations of its descendants just as all the generations of its ancestors have impressed their own genotype on it.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3798/is_200004/ai_n8886269/pg_3

Sooooooo… yes even a blastocyst is a human being with it’s own unique DNA separate from the mother.

Ahh thanks for answering the HPT question. As for the other thing…well I know it;s human or at the very least a cluster of cells with human dna. I guess maybe more on a emotional level I just can;t equate what amounts to a ball of cells to a baby.

 

[Calliso]

True, but we eat to nourish our bodies, and the nice taste and texture of the food is a happy side effect - we don’t eat because it tastes good but then try not to have it go into our bodies.

Not having sex never killed anyone, either. But there are so many forms of birth control that kill people every day - granted, they are people that we can’t see or recognize as being people - but just because we can’t see them or recognize them doesn’t mean that they weren’t there. Science shows us that we are fully human from the moment of conception, even when we are only a microscopic one-celled being. The independent movement of that one-celled human being indicates to us that she has a human soul - she is alive. If she dies on the way down to the womb, she will go to the Judgment Day and then either to Heaven or to Hell, just like every other human being.

I donlt think indepedent movement indicates one has a soul, not to mention I donlt think a single human cell actually has indepedent movement. But about the judgement thing how could a single cell human be judged? They have made no choices do not even have the ablity to make choices. Not to mention what about the number of countless cells miscarried? I read somewhere once that a person using the birth control pill is likely actually causing less human zygotes to die then a person not using anything at all because in the person using nothing more zygotes are created therefore more of them are miscarried. And really how would God judge single celled organisms that have had no chance to make a choice no way to have commited any sin? To me that sounds like a unfair and cruel God.

 

[jmcrae]

I donlt think indepedent movement indicates one has a soul,

It’s the definition of the soul - “anima” = it moves by itself.

not to mention I don’t think a single human cell actually has indepedent movement.

It moves purposefully into the womb to seek for food, and then purposefully attaches itself to the wall of the womb to get nourishment.

But about the judgement thing how could a single cell human be judged?

Only God and that person can really know. I doubt they go to Hell, though - it seems extremely unlikely. C. S. Lewis once wrote something to the effect that God only chooses a very few to be tested in this world - the vast majority go straight to the afterlife without ever having seen the light of day, nor been tested by sin.

 

[sola_scriptura]

The pill (as far as I know – I’m no doctor ) does not terminate a pregnancy (nor do other forms of female birth control) – only the abortion pill does this…

It’s possible sola, that a glance at the document provided by the following link might persuade you to re-evaluate that particular statement:

aaplog.org/collition.htm

Indeed. I did not know the “pill” (meant to avoid pregnancy) can kill a conceived fetus (again – I went to law school not med school).

However, this I think could only result where the pill is used improperly. The pill must be taken for a certain number of weeks before it becomes effective. After that period an egg cannot be in a position to conceive. However, if a couple has sex before this then it is possible that either the female may become pregnant or a conceived child could be aborted.

So again I find little difference between male or female contraception. If female contraception is used properly it is indistinguishable from condom use. However, both forms of contraception violate the law of God:

1. Be fruitful and multiply (using contraceptives at all, whether the pill or condoms – with or without chemicals on them, violates this).
2. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) with or without contraceptives violates God’s commandments.

However, sex inside of marriage even if there is no possibility of conceiving a child is fine. There is no requirement that there be a possibility (even if only remote) that conception can take place.

Grandma and grandpa cannot have children – but may go at it like wild rabbits if they still have the ability! Why they would want to use contraception is beyond me? This shouldn’t be the sort of stuff that we focus on frankly (except for titillating humor).

 

[BlestOne]

Sola… do you not believe in miracles? Sarah conceived in her 90’s and bore Isaac didn’t she? I truly believe that God could do the same now if he were so inclined…

 

[Calliso]

Sola… do you not believe in miracles? Sarah conceived in her 90’s and bore Isaac didn’t she? I truly believe that God could do the same now if he were so inclined…

Well in this day and age it is really not good for a very elderly person to conceive/bear children. The health risks to both the child and mother are huge. I dontl think God would be so cruel to perform such a “miracle/curse” Course there are people who have used artificial methods in elderly years to have children…but I doubt God intended that.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Sola… do you not believe in miracles? Sarah conceived in her 90’s and bore Isaac didn’t she? I truly believe that God could do the same now if he were so inclined…

Of course I do – but I fail to see the relevance? After menopause it is not possible to conceive children – without divine intervention (I guess I assumed everyone would simply read that into my earlier statement). However, yes indeed to clarify God can do anything.

However, since Mary there hasn’t been divine intervention in the conception process – so I’ll reword my statement.

Grandma and grandpa – if God doesn’t either tell you you’re going to bear a child, or an angel doesn’t tell you this – you may safely assume you cannot bear children.

In other words without divine intervention it is physically impossible.

However, grandma and grandpa if you use contraception please seek out mental health – or perhaps a quick adult learning course in biology, if simple ignorance is your problem (unless grandma thinks grandpa was fooling around – and you’re using protection out of fear of an STD, in which case please seek marriage counseling, don’t let grandpa do anything to you until tested by a doctor, and if you want to forgive great – if not talk to a lawyer – but not me, I don’t do family law).

 

[sola_scriptura]

Well in this day and age it is really not good for a very elderly person to conceive/bear children. The health risks to both the child and mother are huge. I dontl think God would be so cruel to perform such a “miracle/curse” Course there are people who have used artificial methods in elderly years to have children…but I doubt God intended that.

Whatever happens God intended – because He is eternally omniscient and omnipotent. If God doesn’t want something to happen it will not happen, if He does it will happen.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Sola… do you not believe in miracles? Sarah conceived in her 90’s and bore Isaac didn’t she? I truly believe that God could do the same now if he were so inclined…

Who raised raised Isaac ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 26, 2008

 

[BlestOne]

Who raised raised Isaac ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 26, 2008

Abraham and Sarah…

 

[Syele]

Indeed. I did not know the “pill” (meant to avoid pregnancy) can kill a conceived fetus (again – I went to law school not med school).

However, this I think could only result where the pill is used improperly. The pill must be taken for a certain number of weeks before it becomes effective. After that period an egg cannot be in a position to conceive. However, if a couple has sex before this then it is possible that either the female may become pregnant or a conceived child could be aborted.

So again I find little difference between male or female contraception. If female contraception is used properly it is indistinguishable from condom use. However, both forms of contraception violate the law of God:

1. Be fruitful and multiply (using contraceptives at all, whether the pill or condoms – with or without chemicals on them, violates this).
2. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) with or without contraceptives violates God’s commandments.

However, sex inside of marriage even if there is no possibility of conceiving a child is fine. There is no requirement that there be a possibility (even if only remote) that conception can take place.

Grandma and grandpa cannot have children – but may go at it like wild rabbits if they still have the ability! Why they would want to use contraception is beyond me? This shouldn’t be the sort of stuff that we focus on frankly (except for titillating humor).

The Pill is not 100% effective at preventing pregnancy after the first two weeks even when used properly. the abortificant property take effect if the first property(prevention) fails. COMBINED the two properties of the pill stop 99% of pregnancies. The percentage of pregnancies aborted by the pill is unknown. but assuming its only 1% consider the millions of people on the pill
having sex often… it will still add up to alot of aborted babies.

 

[Thinks4Himself]

I am against the pill unless its to help a woman w/her mestrual cycle. But I do not recognize cells as fully human until IMPLANTATION and when its officially called an EMBRYO

 

[Jennifer_J]

I believe I stated this earlier in the thread, but maybe not, it’s good to repeat it though…open to life is really not the most precise term. The Catholic position is that EVERY marital act should be ordered to procreation–that means each act should be as God created it, unaltered by chemicals or barriers–leaving both the procreative and unitive aspects intact and working together. Procreative doesn’t have to mean fertile, though, it’s means that you, personally, aren’t doing anything to change the procreative aspects of the act. This is why naturally infertile people may marry and why the marital embrace is licit even after menopause–nothing is being done to frustrate the procreative aspect, it just is.

The Pill has 3 modes of operation

1. to stop ovulation
2. to thicken mucous–slow and kills sperm
3. thins the uterine wall --so baby can’t implant

when 1 of these fails it is hoped the other mechinisms of action does its ‘job’–if conception occurs and the baby can’t implant–that’s killing a baby. We know it can happen because some women get pregnant on the Pill–breakthrough ovulation happens. It’s nearly impossible to test, though, for obvious reasons.

 

[jmcrae]

I am against the pill unless its to help a woman w/her mestrual cycle. But I do not recognize cells as fully human until IMPLANTATION and when its officially called an EMBRYO

And how is it up to you to decide when the child is human?

Either she is, or she isn’t. Science tells us that she is, because she has her full complement of DNA. So does the Church, because she has the volitional movement that indicates the presence of a soul.

I am not seeing a whole lot of room for personal opinions, here.