Birth control and non-Catholics

[Laurent_LUG]

And how is it up to you to decide when the child is human?

Either she is, or she isn’t

I agree for a full 100% !!
Otherwise sperm & egg cells would be useless !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 26, 2008

 

[Princess18]

Slightly off topic.

If you have a condition that requires hormonal treatment the Church approves of being on the Pill (double effect, I think it’s called). If it were deemed medically necessary for me to go back on the Pill, I’d probably freak out all the time wondering if it failed to prevent ovulation and if I had accidentally killed my child. I wonder if I would consider using condoms, to ensure I wasn’t creating any babies for the Pill to abort. Has this crossed anyone else’s mind? I’m not promoting anything, just wondering out loud. I wonder if I could learn to be okay with the possibility of what was happening even if it was deemed OK by the Church.

 

[bobzills]

And how is it up to you to decide when the child is human? .

The Catholic speaker of the US House of Representatives has given an interview on this topic. She said that she is an ardent, practicing Catholic, and that over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make the definition of when human life actually begins. She says that St. Augustine says that human life begins three months after conception. And so women should have the right to choose. The Catholic Church has been discussing this for centuries, and this has been an issue of controversy in the teaching of the Catholic Church, according to the ardent Catholic Pelosi. And she says that Catholics should support contraception and it is wrong to oppose contraception since the use of contraception can reduce the number of abortions.
youtube.com/watch?v=mwUSt7dfj5I
She is an important and ardent Catholic leader and figure in American politics.

 

[oiboyz]

amazon.com/Open-Embrace-Protestant-Rethinks-Contraception/dp/0802839738/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219819209&sr=8-1
There’s a book by a Protestant couple advocating against contraception… they later recanted some of their views.

amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Your-Fertility-Anniversary/dp/0060881909/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219819275&sr=1-1
And there’s a book by a woman who seems to be quite non-Christian, explaining a variation of NFP (what she calls “Fertility Awareness Method”)

 

[sola_scriptura]

It just occurred to me – this is such a legalistic discussion?

The government allows for religious freedom & I’m not about to advocate stepping into the bedrooms of America with an inquisition looking for spent condom wrappers.

This country was built by enlightened men not theocratic zealots.

We’re better off trying to win hearts and minds with issues like sex outside of marriage and so forth.

Frankly there is no difference – Biblically speaking between the “Roman rhythm method” and using contraception. It’s still sex with an intent to not be fruitful and multiply. This is the personal choice of individuals.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Sex between (married) adults are not our business !!
Making love between (married) adults are not our business !!
Except , when crime is involved !!

If you knew your neighbour had an affair with someone ??

Suppose , you daughter or son comes home ,
and tell you , she’ve got a (venereal) disease ,
who’s to blame for this ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 27, 2008

 

[Jennifer_J]

The Catholic speaker of the US House of Representatives has given an interview on this topic. She said that she is an ardent, practicing Catholic, and that over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make the definition of when human life actually begins. She says that St. Augustine says that human life begins three months after conception. And so women should have the right to choose. The Catholic Church has been discussing this for centuries, and this has been an issue of controversy in the teaching of the Catholic Church, according to the ardent Catholic Pelosi. And she says that Catholics should support contraception and it is wrong to oppose contraception since the use of contraception can reduce the number of abortions.
youtube.com/watch?v=mwUSt7dfj5I
She is an important and ardent Catholic leader and figure in American politics.

And she’s wrong and has been taken to task by various bishops/cadinals and the USCCB
usccb.org
archden.org/images/ArchbishopCorner/ByTopic/onseparationofsense%26state_openlettercjc8.25.08.pdf
thehill.com/leading-the-news/archbishop-pelosis-comments-on-abortion-are-false-2008-08-25.html

See also, this thread on CAF:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=263207

Life begins at conception and should be protected from then until natural death. THAT’S the Catholic position.

 

[Jennifer_J]

It just occurred to me – this is such a legalistic discussion?

The government allows for religious freedom & I’m not about to advocate stepping into the bedrooms of America with an inquisition looking for spent condom wrappers.

This country was built by enlightened men not theocratic zealots.

We’re better off trying to win hearts and minds with issues like sex outside of marriage and so forth.

Frankly there is no difference – Biblically speaking between the “Roman rhythm method” and using contraception. It’s still sex with an intent to not be fruitful and multiply. This is the personal choice of individuals.

How is it legalistic to figure out how to live an authentic Christian life? We must apply Gospel principles to all of our life. Our fertility is a gift, Holy Matrimony is a sacrament and the martial embrace is a restatement of that sacrament. We must treat it with all due respect. NFP respects the natural cycle of the woman. It is an alternative for total abstinence, not contraception, when circumstances call for a spacing of babies. It is in line with moral principles because it does not interfere with the procreative (NOT FERTILE, necessarily) and unitive aspects of the marital embrace–it keeps the act whole and as God created and intended it. NFP is birth control, and birth control is just fine with the Church, we don’t have to have as many children as physically possible. The Church says that interfering with the natural outcome of intercourse is a problem–creating an act that is against conception as opposed to intercourse during a time of natural infertility. There is a HUGE difference.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Sex between (married) adults are not our business !!
Making love between (married) adults are not our business !!
Except , when crime is involved !!

If you knew your neighbour had an affair with someone ??

Suppose , you daughter or son comes home ,
and tell you , she’ve got a (venereal) disease ,
who’s to blame for this ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 27, 2008

I’m sorry, but do you have a point?

All sin affects the whole of Christianity. Sin isn’t just personal. We should all strive to be moral people, we should strive to attain heaven. We should call sin, sin.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

OK , my real full point is:

We all do exist , to me it doesn’t matter
who or what you are !!

I don’t like (it when) people [who] are saying ,
(thinking) they are better than , (just) because of …

---

Suppose my kid would have sex ,
and he/she is not yet ready to have kids ,
I would be mad if they don’t use a condom !!
But … first of all , I would say , don’t do it !!
There is more than sex !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 27, 2008

 

[NeedImprovement]

OK , my real full point is:

…
I don’t like (it when) people [who] are saying ,
(thinking) they are better than , (just) because of …

…
Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 27, 2008

I didn’t see posts # 187 and 188 in that light. I don’t think anyone is saying they’re better than anyone else. I think it’s more that a certain code of moral conduct is more beneficial not only to individuals, but also to the whole of society.

One needn’t look very far to notice the effects of promiscuity all around us ( not saying I’m better than anyone else…led a promiscuous adolesence myself). But take a good hard look at what’s going on in internet porn today…that’s where many impressionable young people learn by example what is falsely proposed as society’s ideal.

We have diseases today that were never heard of 30 or 40 years ago.

The Guttmacher Institue reports that out of all pregnancies in the US, 22% end in abortion. Another way of saying this is that almost one quarter of all Americans are not being born anymore…a very sobering thought …wouldn’t you say?

We are living an inversion of moral values today. What may have been misinterpreted as, “…people who are saying, thinking they are better than…just because…” is better expressed as, :“We need a code of moral conduct to try and follow…to try and help all of us…get through this life.”

It wouldn’t hurt to remind ourselves that this is CAF, where we should be allowed to express our faith and moral views. I can tell you where I live the freedom of speech which should belong to a believing Catholic is in essence severely attenuated by an inordinate lean towards discrimination under the guise of “political correctness”.

 

[BlestOne]

OK , my real full point is:

We all do exist , to me it doesn’t matter
who or what you are !!

I don’t like (it when) people [who] are saying ,
(thinking) they are better than , (just) because of …

---

Suppose my kid would have sex ,
and he/she is not yet ready to have kids ,
I would be mad if they don’t use a condom !!
But … first of all , I would say , don’t do it !!
There is more than sex !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), august 27, 2008

Laurent… I have 4 children of reproductive ages… 3 really who would be a concern…21 yo son, 18 yo son, 16 yo daughter and a non-dating 13 yo daughter. If any of them were to come to me and tell me they are going to be or could be a parent… whether mother or father… I would be disappointed that they did not wait until marriage but I would strongly discourage birth control (before the pregnancy) or abortion (after) because their immortal souls are more important than anything in the world to me…

The point is… you don’t have sex unless you are grown up enough to accept that there may be a child.

 

[Princess18]

I would be disappointed that they did not wait until marriage but I would strongly discourage birth control (before the pregnancy) or abortion (after) because their immortal souls are more important than anything in the world to me…

I’m surprised to hear you say that, so would you clarify to make sure I heard you right? If they are having sex outside of marriage you would not encourage them to use condoms to reduce the risk of disease?

 

[BlestOne]

I’m surprised to hear you say that, so would you clarify to make sure I heard you right? If they are having sex outside of marriage you would not encourage them to use condoms to reduce the risk of disease?

Yes you heard me right… why add sin to sin? Their immortal souls are a bigger concern than their physical bodies. Hopefully, I have taught them well and instilled Christian virtues in them that they decide to wait until they are married. At last “talk” my 21 yo said yes he is still a virgin and same with the 16 and 18 yo’s.

 

[jmcrae]

The Catholic speaker of the US House of Representatives has given an interview on this topic. She said that she is an ardent, practicing Catholic, and that over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make the definition of when human life actually begins.

This is a question that has been settled by science. The child begins to move at the moment of conception.

She says that St. Augustine says that human life begins three months after conception.

St. Augustine was relying on science of the time that was telling him that the first movement of the child occurs at 3 months.

She is an important and ardent Catholic leader and figure in American politics.

I would not call anyone “ardent” who disagrees with such a fundamental teaching of the Church.

 

[TriuneUnity]

This is a question that has been settled by science. The child begins to move at the moment of conception.

St. Augustine was relying on science of the time that was telling him that the first movement of the child occurs at 3 months.

I would not call anyone “ardent” who disagrees with such a fundamental teaching of the Church.

 

[Thinks4Himself]

It just occurred to me – this is such a legalistic discussion?

The government allows for religious freedom & I’m not about to advocate stepping into the bedrooms of America with an inquisition looking for spent condom wrappers.

This country was built by enlightened men not theocratic zealots.

We’re better off trying to win hearts and minds with issues like sex outside of marriage and so forth.

Frankly there is no difference – Biblically speaking between the “Roman rhythm method” and using contraception. It’s still sex with an intent to not be fruitful and multiply. This is the personal choice of individuals.

I agree with you. I have nothing wrong with sex for pleasure. Thats what NFP basically teaches and why I am also for condoms. The pill however I draw my personal line unless its for hormonal issues

 

[Jennifer_J]

I agree with you. I have nothing wrong with sex for pleasure. Thats what NFP basically teaches and why I am also for condoms. The pill however I draw my personal line unless its for hormonal issues

That’s NOT what NFP teaches (mostly because NFP is fertility awareness and has nothing to do with teaching morality, per se). Once again, the Church teaches that NFP is licit because each act of intercourse is whole and complete. There is no barrier, either chemical or physical put in the way by man. The Church isn’t against birth control, it’s against tampering with the procreative and unitive aspects of the marital embrace that should be inseparable.

 

[sola_scriptura]

I agree with you. I have nothing wrong with sex for pleasure. Thats what NFP basically teaches and why I am also for condoms. The pill however I draw my personal line unless its for hormonal issues

When I say it is a personal choice for individuals I didn’t mean us Christians

Fornication is sinful. In other words sex outside of marriage. Of course sex is pleasurable. God made it pleasurable so we would be fruitful and multiply.

However, inside of marriage use of any contraception including the rhythm method would seem to go against the command to be fruitful and multiply.

My beef is I do not support using the law to make society conform to Christian standards.

 

[Syele]

That’s NOT what NFP teaches (mostly because NFP is fertility awareness and has nothing to do with teaching morality, per se). Once again, the Church teaches that NFP is licit because each act of intercourse is whole and complete. There is no barrier, either chemical or physical put in the way by man. The Church isn’t against birth control, it’s against tampering with the procreative and unitive aspects of the marital embrace that should be inseparable.

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I don’t buy it. Deciding purposely NOT to conceive and planning your sex around that is making a direct decision to avoid pregnancy. It is going to much effort to tamper with the procreative aspect (controlling Births!). Both involve physical acts to prevent pregnancy. It is your reasons for avoiding that can be sinful or not sinful, not the act of(and method of) avoiding itself. The main difference I see between condoms and NFP is that NFP simply takes more work.

More effort is not necessarily more righteous.

Abortificants are wrong because they kill people. Yes the people are very tiny. They are still people even if you call them “balls of cells”. Abortificants aren’t wrong because they were taken for the purpose of avoiding concieving, they are wrong because they kill even if the killing is “only” a secondary function.

I totally don’t buy all this man made barrier stuff. when you examine it closely NFP looks a whole lot like saying “Whoo Hoo I found a loop hole!” Since when does sin have loopholes? My feet are made for walking, they have a natural ability to toughen so walking barefoot will not damage them. Wearing shoes weakens their natural God given properties. The shoe barrier prevents you from properly feeling the ground where you are walking. BAN SHOES. They interfere with what God made feet for! If its against Gods laws to use our body parts in ways they weren’t directly designed for then shoes are definitely out. Or kids who learn to walk on their hands! BAD. or how about this… I love the texture of my daughters soft stuffed animal. I feel pleasure from petting it. Were my hands only made for working? Is it wrong to feel of something just for the sake of pleasure? Of course you think Im silly. Sex is somehow subject to rules that are made up because, well, its sex. but sexual organs are our body parts. arguments about what our bodies were made for and what they are not can easily get ludicris. Because of that I dont buy any arguments that marital sex MUST include precreative elements every time it happens. There is no reason it cannot be done just for pleasure. All of our body parts have multiple purposes.

Motive is what matters here much less than physical things. WHY is the couple avoiding pregnancy? ARE they being responsible?

ABC comes into the picture only under the “Ends do not justify the means” category. I have very good reason to not want a child atm. That doesn’t justify killing a child. If I’m avoiding pregnancy for wrong reasons then NO METHOD IS ACCEPTABLE.

I fail to see anyway that condoms change your motive more than NFP changes motive. Condoms failure rate is pretty high. In fact, if you are trying to prevent pregnancy I would bet NFP would be MORE EFFECTIVE than a condom. So saying NFP is “more open to life” is silly. its actually LESS open to life.