Birth control dissenter

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basilisk said:
Just to let you know, I am not ignoring the questions y’all have posed to me. I am just short on time with family stuff. And the next post will probably be a long and involved one, so I have to wait until I have a chunk of time. :o

I am coming back, I promise…
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I hear you about getting busy with family stuff. Real life is always interfering with my CAF participation. 😛

Seriously though, this is a big issue and I hope you do take your time. You could even start a new thread if you need to. I find so many people, once they’ve reached a decision on contraceptive issues, are no longer open to discussion. I admire your willingness to keep the conversation going.

God Bless.
 
mpi said:
I agree NFP destroys marriages - so does ABC. That is why couples should just have sex whenever they want and accept any babies they are blessed with. Catholics who engage in family planning (NFP or ABC) are usually sinning - at least in the context of the Western world as there is so little abject poverty. Only serious health issues seems legitimate for using NFP.
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Where is 1ke when you need her darn it…
 
maryjk said:
She’ll be here, don’t worry. 👍
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I hope!

Sadly I know these answers in my own head but I just can’t seem to formulate them into typed words effectively…she does that masterfully so I’ll leave it to her.👍

And so we wait…:compcoff:
 
manualman said:
You may think there is little difference, but let me assure you that there is a BIG difference! Those times of abstinance when you REALLY don’t want to abstain are the cutting torch that reveals the difference between genuine legitimate reasons to avoid and selfish ones. In a similar manner, it is the same difference as between dieting to lose weight and puking up the whole bag of cookies you just ate.
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You could just as easily make a case for NFP being like anorexia(obsessive calorie counting and fasting). When I read about couples here obsessing over charting and signs and going months without sex, it reminds me of nothing more than my years with an eating disorder.
 
I attempted to postpone pregnancy with NFP. I’m pregnant. oops. I’m wrestling with the idea of what to do after the baby is born… I am seriously considering using a contraceptive at least until my system straightens out after the baby arrives. I dont have alot of faith in NFP anymore and I’m definitely not strong enough to be abstinent until I’m ready for a second child, and DH isn’t either. I’m not proud of it, but OP makes some good points…

…sigh…
 
Calliso said:
And what about mental reasons? Not everyone can just handle kid after kid after kid. I am sure there has been more then a few marriages strained because of too many kids.
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That is usually because families don’t want to downscale - i.e. move to a cheaper neighborhood, stop eating out. Gluttony and pride are deadly sins.
 
mpi said:
I agree NFP destroys marriages - so does ABC. That is why couples should just have sex whenever they want and accept any babies they are blessed with. Catholics who engage in family planning (NFP or ABC) are usually sinning - at least in the context of the Western world as there is so little abject poverty. Only serious health issues seems legitimate for using NFP.
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Well, thankfully that’s not what the UNIVERSAL CHURCH teaches. We must, certainly, have grave/serious/just reasons, but they don’t have to be “on the steps of the grave” to be considered serious. This sweeping generalization that all who use NFP are sinning is erroneous. Economic, psycological/emotional and phsyical reasons can fall under this just/serious/grave umbrella. And thankfully, the Church doesn’t spell it out in a list, like you would like to. This decision is left to the spouses and God through serious discernment. What might be serious for one couple, might not be for others–each couple has it’s strengths and weaknesses. If they need assistance in making such decisions, speaking to their priest is always a good idea. While it IS within the realm of possiblity that couples using NFP are sinning–the sheer amount of discipline needed in abstaining would lead couples to NOT use it in a sinful manner. NFP itself is a tool and is NOT intrinsically evil, like contraception is. NFP keeps the integrity of the marital embrace intact, even if the woman is naturally infertile at the time. The Church isn’t against “birth control”–She, infact, calls us to responsible parenthood. Sometimes this “controling of birth” results in total abstinence, sometimes the use of NFP. The fact is ANY FORM OF CONTRACEPTION or BIRTHCONTROL has a failure rate. The only way to ensure no pregnancy is to ABSTAIN TOTALLY or have organs removed.

So, just because YOU think any Catholic is sinning to use NFP, you aren’t walking in other’s shoes and REALLY can’t make that call…
 
mpi said:
That is usually because families don’t want to downscale - i.e. move to a cheaper neighborhood, stop eating out. Gluttony and pride are deadly sins.
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No, this is because having a large family is HARD and not everyone on this planet is called to have a large family. No everyone who uses NFP is selfish, sinning, a bad Catholic or whatever. Infact, for my dh and I–NFP made us MORE open to children.
 
sing said:
You could just as easily make a case for NFP being like anorexia(obsessive calorie counting and fasting). When I read about couples here obsessing over charting and signs and going months without sex, it reminds me of nothing more than my years with an eating disorder.
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The women who tend to obsess over their charts tend to be trying to conceive 😛 others, just have questions they need help with, that’s not really obsessing in any way, it’s asking a question. Once upon a time, couples who wished to NOT add to their families would be called to abstain until menopause was well established. Thankfully, we have NFP to allow that couple a bit more intimacy–in a way that doesn’t alter the marital embrace in any way.
 
mpi said:
That is usually because families don’t want to downscale - i.e. move to a cheaper neighborhood, stop eating out. Gluttony and pride are deadly sins.
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mpi…I see from the other threads you have started on NFP that you have quite an agenda against it. What I am wondering is what are your sources for your arguments? The Catholic Church has never made any of the statements that you are, so I’m wondering where your position comes from?

If you are going to come here and tell people something is a sin, you’d better be able to back it up.

OTOH you may not want to bother, because everyone here has been there and done that and know the truth of the matter, so, it’s all good;) 👍
 
mpi, I’ve asked you on a few threads to tell us a little about yourself. Hard to know who we are conversing with on the internet. The only personal facts we know about you are that you are a “high income- low net worth” individual and you are friends with five couples who make a lot of money and you think they should have more kids.

Without revealing too much personal information, perhaps you could broadly tell us which generation you are a part of (Boomer, Gen. Jones, Gen X, etc) and what your state in life is. It might help us understand why you hold the views of NFP use that you do.
 
mpi said:
I agree NFP destroys marriages - so does ABC. That is why couples should just have sex whenever they want and accept any babies they are blessed with. Catholics who engage in family planning (NFP or ABC) are usually sinning - at least in the context of the Western world as there is so little abject poverty. Only serious health issues seems legitimate for using NFP.
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mpi said:
That is usually because families don’t want to downscale - i.e. move to a cheaper neighborhood, stop eating out. Gluttony and pride are deadly sins.
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And patience, kindness, and humility are holy virtues, so what’s your point?🤷

Please do not accuse each and every person who uses NFP of committing a sin.
Christ also taught us to “Judge not, lest you be judged”…
 
shannyk said:
I hope!

Sadly I know these answers in my own head but I just can’t seem to formulate them into typed words effectively…she does that masterfully so I’ll leave it to her.👍

And so we wait…:compcoff:
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Okay, go back to your original post, quoted above. Re-read it, then read your signature. Too funny.
 
sing said:
You could just as easily make a case for NFP being like anorexia(obsessive calorie counting and fasting). When I read about couples here obsessing over charting and signs and going months without sex, it reminds me of nothing more than my years with an eating disorder.
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just_me said:
I attempted to postpone pregnancy with NFP. I’m pregnant. oops. I’m wrestling with the idea of what to do after the baby is born… I am seriously considering using a contraceptive at least until my system straightens out after the baby arrives. I dont have alot of faith in NFP anymore and I’m definitely not strong enough to be abstinent until I’m ready for a second child, and DH isn’t either. I’m not proud of it, but OP makes some good points…

…sigh…
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I asked the OP a question earlier, but it really should be open to anyone who takes issue with Catholic teaching on contraception. Can you articulate why the Church teaches what she does about contraception?
 
sing said:
You could just as easily make a case for NFP being like anorexia(obsessive calorie counting and fasting). When I read about couples here obsessing over charting and signs and going months without sex, it reminds me of nothing more than my years with an eating disorder.
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NFP is like dieting to loose weight if you have a legitimate reason to loose weight (manualman pats over-large belly). Like anorexia, if you use it when you don’t have a legitimate reason it too can be harmful. As noted above, what constitutes a "serious / just reason differs via a host of factors. Unlike certain posters who wind up being more catholic than the pope, Humanae Vitae deliberately did not attempt to defince a rigid list. Discernment is not easily translated to “thou shalt” statements on issues that are prudential judgements. Only intrinsically wrong things so easily lend themselves to such statements.

Anyone who goes months without sex due to NFP has medical issues that need to be resolved. In my experience, the worst it gets is when menstruation is immediately followed by fertile mucus symptoms with no “early days” opportunities (Billings Method NFP). It doesn’t happen often and when it does we have a dry period of about 14 days total. And charts are usually for those with trickier cycles or beginners. We haven’t used one in years. For most, it really isn’t as hard as the dissenters want you to believe.
 
sing said:
You could just as easily make a case for NFP being like anorexia(obsessive calorie counting and fasting). When I read about couples here obsessing over charting and signs and going months without sex, it reminds me of nothing more than my years with an eating disorder.
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I’d say as Manualman earlier wrote that “dieting” is a better comparrison.

Some people watch their weight without being compulsive when that have only a few pounds to loose or even when they simply want to maintain their current healthy weight. Most people who diet need to loose weight. (A recent news story reported 2/3 of Americans are overweight.) Yet there is a small number of people who diet when they are already too thin.

The Church allows NFP if couples have discerned in prayer a just/serious/grave reason to avoid children. Yes, NFP can be misused, just as dieting can be misused. But just as most people who are on diets don’t develop anorexia nervosa, most couples who use NFP do not abuse it. As already pointed out the discipline required (abstinance) prompts couples to re-evaluate their reasons for avoiding children.
 
manualman said:
Anyone who goes months without sex due to NFP has medical issues that need to be resolved. In my experience, the worst it gets is when menstruation is immediately followed by fertile mucus symptoms with no “early days” opportunities (Billings Method NFP). It doesn’t happen often and when it does we have a dry period of about 14 days total. And charts are usually for those with trickier cycles or beginners. We haven’t used one in years. For most, it really isn’t as hard as the dissenters want you to believe.
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manualman… it is obvious to me that your wife didn’t ever breastfeed for very long by this. For women who breastfeed their children for a year or more, it can take an extremely long time for their cycles to resume. Signs can be confusing and all over the place during the time of breastfeeding amenorrhea. This causes many couples extreme difficulty in determining their fertility status. Marquette University has spent years working on a new method of NFP just to give couples facing this some relief. I am not willing to take the comfort, nutrition, and bonding of extended nursing away from my children in order to make my sex life easier. It is something they NEED, IMO.

Still working up that big long post… but I couldn’t let this stand unanswered. NFP is NOT easy for everyone, and for you to insist that it should be is elitist and intolerant.
 
basilisk said:
manualman… it is obvious to me that your wife didn’t ever breastfeed for very long by this. For women who breastfeed their children for a year or more, it can take an extremely long time for their cycles to resume. Signs can be confusing and all over the place during the time of breastfeeding amenorrhea. This causes many couples extreme difficulty in determining their fertility status. Marquette University has spent years working on a new method of NFP just to give couples facing this some relief. I am not willing to take the comfort, nutrition, and bonding of extended nursing away from my children in order to make my sex life easier. It is something they NEED, IMO.

Still working up that big long post… but I couldn’t let this stand unanswered. NFP is NOT easy for everyone, and for you to insist that it should be is elitist and intolerant.
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You’re right… it’s not easy. But it IS possible!

I’m BF’ing my third… and waiting for my fertility to return. I was able to detect my returning fertility after my first two children! It takes patience, effort, education (I read LOTS on NFP)… but it’s certainly possible!
I’ve been able to nurse my kids as long as we wanted… yes, my fertility returned while I was still BF’ing, but NFP wasn’t impossible!
 
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