Birth Control vs. Abortion

[MJDorry]

Sure but it isn’t personhood. It is more a law definition than a science one.

Define personhood, and then explain, under the auspices of that definition, why personhood, or the lack thereof, is a justified distinction with regard to abortion, and why it is somehow untouchable, but life isn’t.

 

[BornInMarch]

Many people on the Left have made the argument that if the government were to cut off funding for “free” birth control, the number of unwanted pregnancies would go up which in turn would result in more abortions.

Is this a sound argument? And if not, what are some viable arguments to counter this claim?

One viable counter to this argument is that birth control has a non-zero percent failure rate (especially since a lot of people use their birth control incorrectly) and that it encourages a lot more sex. Put two and two together and it means that people are more likely to get an abortion when their birth control fails.

Another viable counter-argument is that birth control causes health problems where NFP or abstinence cause none. If a poor person is poisoned by her birth control pills then she might not be able to afford the medical help needed to avoid death, which could result in either intense debt from emergency health bills or outright death.

 

[NM505StKate]

Define personhood, and then explain, under the auspices of that definition, why personhood, or the lack thereof, is a justified distinction with regard to abortion, and why it is somehow untouchable, but life isn’t.

Personhood is being able to survive outside of the womb. First trimester not likely. Second trimester really tough but likely. Third trimester umm give birth?

 

[Rau]

Personhood is being able to survive outside of the womb. First trimester not likely. Second trimester really tough but likely. Third trimester umm give birth?

Being able to survive outside the womb is mere stage of development. We all passed through that point. Human life before, and after. You didn’t explain how stage of development impacts one’s right to end the life.

 

[NM505StKate]

Being able to survive outside the womb is mere stage of development. We all passed through that point. Human life before, and after. You didn’t explain how stage of development impacts one’s right to end the life.

It is based on the law. Sorry but that is the best I can explain.

 

[BornInMarch]

It is based on the law. Sorry but that is the best I can explain.

The Law can be flawed.

There was once a time when a fully grown human, someone who was born and who reached adulthood, was not considered a person in the eyes of the law; slaves were considered at best 3/5ths of a person, and at worst were considered to be little more than livestock. Did the slaves gain personhood when the 13th amendment was passed, or did the 13th amendment just recognize the personhood that they have always had?

 

[NM505StKate]

The Law can be flawed.

There was once a time when a fully grown human, someone who was born and who reached adulthood, was not considered a person in the eyes of the law; slaves were considered at best 3/5ths of a person, and at worst were considered to be little more than livestock. Did the slaves gain personhood when the 13th amendment was passed, or did the 13th amendment just recognize the personhood that they have always had?

Yes it is flawed but it is what we have. Roe V Wade gave us the trimesters. The law concluded that an abortion performed in the first trimester is fine because the zygote cannot live independently from the host. Second trimester a little more likely and so on.

 

[BornInMarch]

Yes it is flawed but it is what we have. Roe V Wade gave us the trimesters. The law concluded that an abortion performed in the first trimester is fine because the zygote cannot live independently from the host. Second trimester a little more likely and so on.

The people who made that law made a mistake, we can do better.

 

[Rau]

It is based on the law. Sorry but that is the best I can explain.

I am surprised with you taking the position that the law (presumably of the USA) is sufficient to determine what is moral and what is not. It implies you also believe that morality changes from country to country, and from time to time.

 

[cominghome1966]

Many people on the Left have made the argument that if the government were to cut off funding for “free” birth control, the number of unwanted pregnancies would go up which in turn would result in more abortions.

Is this a sound argument? And if not, what are some viable arguments to counter this claim?

I didn’t read all of the responses here, so I apologize if this point was already made.

One thing I never see mentioned by the Left is how contraception failure rates vary according to the demographic.

For example, the younger the person is, the higher the failure rate.

 

[RCinMT]

I am surprised with you taking the position that the law (presumably of the USA) is sufficient to determine what is moral and what is not. It implies you also believe that morality changes from country to country, and from time to time.

I have argued this point before, too. Essentially it means that the Stalinist purges were moral, the Holocaust was moral, slavery was moral, lying is moral, adultery is moral, watching pronography is moral.

The list could go on. I cannot help but say that it is highly problematic to claim to be Catholic but draw your morality from what is or is not legal.

 

[RCinMT]

I didn’t read all of the responses here, so I apologize if this point was already made.

One thing I never see mentioned by the Left is how contraception failure rates vary according to the demographic.

For example, the younger the person is, the higher the failure rate.

patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2016/09/surprising-negative-effects-of-the-pill-on-behavior-dating-and-marriage/

patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2016/10/secular-media-finally-admits-the-pill-causes-depression-relationship-problems/

 

[WingsOfEagles]

That being said, our current Pope is against refusal of baptism…

ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/francis-priests-should-never-refuse-baptism-one-who-asks

 

[NM505StKate]

I am surprised with you taking the position that the law (presumably of the USA) is sufficient to determine what is moral and what is not. It implies you also believe that morality changes from country to country, and from time to time.

Morality wasn’t what Roe vs Wade was about. It is the woman’s right to choose. Bodily autonomy.

 

[Rau]

Morality wasn’t what Roe vs Wade was about. It is the woman’s right to choose. Bodily autonomy.

It was u who raised the law as the basis for the right to take a life. This is a question of morality, is it not?

 

[NM505StKate]

Many people on the Left have made the argument that if the government were to cut off funding for “free” birth control, the number of unwanted pregnancies would go up which in turn would result in more abortions.

Is this a sound argument? And if not, what are some viable arguments to counter this claim?

This is the argument. Yes if the funding is cut off of free birth control the number of abortions would go up. We have statistics that show when condoms and solid education is provided the risk of teens getting pregnant goes down and abortions go down. In some places. like say the Bible Belt, where there is abstinence only classes there is higher pregnancy rates.

 

[PRmerger]

True, but in a practical sense reducing the likelihood of unwanted pregnancies among those who will not abstain is important too.

Also, in a practical sense, demanding that** I pay** for *your *decision to fornicate is irrational.

“Your” here is a rhetorical “your” not a personal “your”.

 

[PRmerger]

Also, in a practical sense, demanding that** I pay** for *your *decision to fornicate is irrational.

“Your” here is a rhetorical “your” not a personal “your”.

As Mark Shea says: A choice to fornicate on your part…
…does not create an obligation to aid and abet sin on my part. It’s a free country. Buy your own contraceptives. I refuse.

Or, if I am to keep my rosaries off your ovaries, then I should keep my currency out of your debauchery.

 

[MJDorry]

Personhood is being able to survive outside of the womb. First trimester not likely. Second trimester really tough but likely. Third trimester umm give birth?

Oh good, you responded to the first two words of my post. But you haven’t explained how you arrived at that definition. And now I’ll repeat the rest of my request: Explain, under the auspices of that definition, why personhood, or the lack thereof, is a justified distinction with regard to abortion, and why it is somehow untouchable, but life isn’t.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Also, in a practical sense, demanding that** I pay** for *your *decision to fornicate is irrational.

“Your” here is a rhetorical “your” not a personal “your”.

Ok. And if you feel this way then of course support politicians that support this. It isn’t fair, but as a practical matter it cost more the other way (WIC, foster care, etc).

But like the housing crisis, there are enough people who will otherwise make poor choices and bog down Or crash the system.