Birth of Jesus Christ?

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Valke2 said:
If observed at all, the celebration of Christ’s birth was usually lumped in with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church’s earliest established feasts. Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. **Origen **

(c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.
Yes, indeed good old Origen. Was Origen always running on a full tank of gas?

Nope.

christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2000/dec08.html
Nice Catholic source Valke2. Cite a Catholic from a Catholic site next time.

jesus-talk.foolmoon.com/articles/christmas.htm

**Ecclesiastes 7:1 1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one’s birth.

From a religious point of view, Christmas is less significant than Easter and other holidays,** and the early church strongly opposed the celebration of birthdays. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Agreed! Easter (Pascha) is far more important. No argument there! Nothing is more powerful than what Jesus Christ did on that Cross, Nothing.
BTW- Wiki is not where I would rest my case. Anyone can edit Wiki. Did you prior to posting the link?
In particular, during the first two centuries of Christianity there was strong opposition to recognizing birthdays of martyrs or, for that matter, of Jesus. Numerous church fathers offered sarcastic comments about the pagan custom of celebrating birthdays when, in fact, saints and martyrs should be honoured on the days of their martyrdom—their true “birthdays,” from the church’s perspective.
britannica.com/eb/article-9082431/Christmas?source=YFAF
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Fantastic! We do celebrate Chirsts death and resurrection!

I am not sure what point you are trying to make that proves we should not nor can not celebrate Christmas, but you have not convinced me yet.
Keep trying.
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Thanks for explaining. I posted on the other thread as it seems non Christians seem to have lots of ideas about how Christians ought to behave,:rolleyes:
 
Please read Romans 14: 5-6, Job 1:4-5 and Job 3:1-4.

Then tell me I cant celebrate anyones Birthday let alone my Lord’s.
 
Please read Romans 14:5-6 and Job 1:4, 5 and Job 3:1-4.

I am not prohibited from celebrating anyone’s birthday let alone my Risen Lord’s.
 
Damascus said:
Please read Romans 14: 5-6, Job 1:4-5 and Job 3:1-4.

Then tell me I cant celebrate anyones Birthday let alone my Lord’s.
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No offense, I read these texts and the only one to me that seems to say that birthdays are ok to celebrate is in Rom 14: 5-6. Could you explain to me why you think the texts from Job do?
 
I believe the day (December 25) was chosen as that was the darkest day of the year (Winter Solstice) and afterwards the light grew. Jesus is the light of the world so the symbolism is that Jesus entered the world, like the sun begins to return.

Of course with all the problems with the calendar (not knowing about leap years etc.) in the Roman Empire, the day of the solstice changed (now dec 21) but changing the calendar was (and is) difficult so the Dec 25 will probably never again fall on the solstice.

Symbolically: the anunciation is 9 months earlier (Spring Equinox?) on March 21 and it was believed by some in the early church (for symbolic reasons) that Jesus was crucified on that day so from conception to death was an even number of years.
 
yessisan said:
No offense, I read these texts and the only one to me that seems to say that birthdays are ok to celebrate is in Rom 14: 5-6. Could you explain to me why you think the texts from Job do?
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No problem, here is the DR commentary that should clear it up.

1 There was a man in the land of Hus, whose name was Job, and that man was simple and upright, and fearing God, and avoiding evil. 2 And there were born to him seven sons and three daughters. 3 And his possession was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a family exceeding great: and this man was great among all the people of the east. **4 And his sons went, and made a feast by houses every one in his day. And sending they called their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 And when the days of their feasting were gone about, Job sent to them, and sanctified them: and rising up early offered holocausts for every one of them. For he said: Lest perhaps my sons have sinned, and have blessed God in their hearts. So did Job all days. **1 “Hus”… The land of Hus was a part of Edom; as appears from Lam. 4. 21.-- Ibid.

1 “Simple”… That is, innocent, sincere, and without guile.

4 “And made a feast by houses”… That is, each made a feast in his own house and had his day, inviting the others, and their sisters.

5 “Blessed”… For greater horror of the very thought of blasphemy, the scripture both here and ver. 11, and in the following chapter, ver. 5 and 9, uses the word bless to signify its contrary

Job expresses his sense of the miseries of man’s life, by cursing the day of his birth.
1 After this Job opened his mouth, and cursed his day, 2 And he said: 3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said: A man child is conceived. 4 Let that day be turned into darkness, let not God regard it from above, and let not the light shine upon it. 5 Let darkness, and the shadow of death cover it, let a mist overspread it, and let it be wrapped up in bitterness.
1 “Cursed his day”… Job cursed the day of his birth, not by way of wishing evil to any thing of God’s creation; but only to express in a stronger manner his sense of human miseries in general, and of his own calamities in particular.

I am simply saying in those verses that celebrating days has never been prohibited.
Birth or otherwise.

We dont know what days Jobs children were celebrating but we do know they were celebrating special days to them. It was not condemned by God.

And in the 3:1-4 even though Job is cursing “his day” we see its clearly a day that is personal and if it were so abhorrent to recognize one’s day I am going to guess it would not be mentioned this way here.

But granted, The Romans chapter is crystal clear.
 
yessisan said:
I know none of us know when Jesus was born, but I’m pretty sure all know it wasn’t on Dec. 25th.
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I used to be one of those “knowledgeable” people, too, but I have since become convinced that Christ was actually born on December 25th.

Why?

Because the Tradition tells us that the Annunciation was on March 25th, and after doing a “length of pregnancy” calculation on one of those “Hey, you’re having a baby!” web sites, I discovered that a teenage woman giving birth for the first time, who became pregnant on March 25th, and assuming she experienced nothing unusual regarding her health during the period of the pregnancy, would most likely give birth either on December 24th or December 25th.

Boy, was I surprised - I was expecting it to be out by several days - but anyway, there you have it. If the Apostles were correct that the Annunciation took place on March 25th, then there is a very high likelihood that Christ was, in fact, born on December 25th. 🙂
 
yessisan said:
Anyway, I just wanted to know if our Church mentions any other month as the birth month for Jesus (just as other religions do). 12/25 is the date we celebrate but, any other dates used in the CC?
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No.
 
No, the Church does not teach that Christ was actually born on December 25. No one, even to this day, knew when Christ was born so a date was arbitrarily chosen. However it was decided to override a pagan festival. So December 25 was chosen because it was one of the biggest pagan festivals, the feast of the dies natalis Solis Invicti, “the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun”
 
No, the Church does not teach that Christ was actually born on December 25. No one, even to this day, knew when Christ was born so a date was arbitrarily chosen. However it was decided to override a pagan festival. So December 25 was chosen because it was one of the biggest pagan festivals, the feast of the dies natalis Solis Invicti, “the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun” Surprised? Yep, what better way to destroy pagan worship of the Sun, than to replace it with the birthday of the Son.
 
Della said:
All the discussion back and forth between scholars and bishops and others in the early Church does not constitute “Church teaching.” Church teaching is only what is declared to be such by the Magisterium, not by anyone else. Obviously, the Church decided that the celebration of Christ’s birthday was a good thing since it was instituted by Church.

It reminds me of the debate about circumsion and the eating of meat offered to idols and other such issues talked about in the NT. Debate doesn’t mean dissent nor does it constitute Church teaching. Only when the Church speaks through the Magisterium, generally in its councils, does a teaching become formalized. And formalization does not at all mean that certain things were not believed before that time, only that the Church settled the matter once and for all.
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The OP question arises from the fact that we don’t know precisely when Jesus was born. There are many who claim that they know, but obviously it is not generally accepted.

And, exactly what would the point be, if we knew the exact day when Jesus was born?

The larger context involves the Church calendar. And, here we go again. Where did that come from? One of the priests on EWTN rightly pointed out that Jesus’ birth is not celebrated simply on a single day. The Church calendar has a whole season for celebrating HIS birth, although the event of the nativity focuses on a single day.
 
Wouldnt it be nice if we set aside some time each and everyday podering the miraculous birth of our savior?

For that matter, and most importantly the day he broke the bonds of death for us? Everyday we must spend some time pondering the magnitude of these things. IMHO.:o
 
ricko said:
No, the Church does not teach that Christ was actually born on December 25. No one, even to this day, knew when Christ was born so a date was arbitrarily chosen. However it was decided to override a pagan festival. So December 25 was chosen because it was one of the biggest pagan festivals, the feast of the dies natalis Solis Invicti, “the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun” Surprised? Yep, what better way to destroy pagan worship of the Sun, than to replace it with the birthday of the Son.
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Yeah, this is what the JWs argue. I also read this online when I was searching for the origin of New Year’s. So yeah, according to the JWs we’re pagan because we took the date 12/25 and we just pretend to celebrate Jesus Christ’s birth… they can’t get it straight that the CC did this to get rid of the pagan festivity and try to convert them onto Catholicism… they are crazy
 
Damascus said:
Fantastic! We do celebrate Chirsts death and resurrection!

I am not sure what point you are trying to make that proves we should not nor can not celebrate Christmas, but you have not convinced me yet.
Keep trying.
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THe OP was questioning if we knew when Jesus was actually born. I posted that the early church discouraged celebrating birthdays as an explanation as to why the date of Jesus’ birth might not be known.
 
A priest once told me that some theologians thought Jesus was acturally born in what would be our August. I can’t remember how they came to that conclusion, however.
 
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