Bisexuality / Homosexuality and Radical Feminism - Connection ?

[meltzerboy]

This is such a blanket statement.
**You cannot *possibly ***speak for all women. Some ARE trying to usurp the role of men in society - and men in general.

In Humanae Vitae, Paul VI prophesied many of the things that have happened since the Sixties due to radical feminism - and they’ve come true. Many liberal Catholics at the time completely ignored what he had to say and some even left the Church because of it.

**He spoke about the radical **agenda that was taking place due to artificial contraception and how this decay of the family would decay our culture - and it has. Artificial contraception, abortion, euthanasia, rampant homosexuality, the “sexual revolution”, etc. can all be traced back to radical feminism.

Equal pay for equal work,rallying against abuse - these things are NOT the same as the radical feminist agenda. You can either look at history honestly and the sociological implications of radical feminism - or choose to hide your head in the sand . . .

You apparently see radical feminism as an evil, and I think you are making it the source of every other thing you view as evil. But really, what does euthanasia have to do with radical feminism? Or “rampant homosexuality,” which is much more relevant to gay males than lesbians? Do you mean perhaps that radical feminism set the tone for everything else? But why radical feminism? Why not civil rights or gay rights or student protest over Vietnam or liberal politics? All of these movements occurred at about the same time. Although they do correlate with one another, I don’t believe one caused the others. The cause of all this unrest in the late 60s is much more complex and probably multidimensional.

 

[meltzerboy]

“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.” – Robin Morgan former actress and founding member of New York radical Women

“Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.” – Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” --* Andrea Dworkin*

“Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice.” – Ti-Grace Atkinson

“If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” –Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” – Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore’s Presidential Campaign.)

“The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist” National NOW Times, January, 1988.

“Overthrowing capitalism is too small for us. We must overthrow the whole…patriarch!” Gloria Steinem, radical feminist leader, editor of MS magazine.

“Let’s forget about the mythical Jesus and look for encouragement, solace, and inspiration from real women… Two thousand years of patriarchal rule under the shadow of the cross ought to be enough to turn women toward the feminist ‘salvation’ of this world.” Annie Laurie Gaylor, “Feminist Salvation,” The Humanist, p. 37, July/August 1988.

Feminism, Socialism, and Communism are one in the same, and Socialist/Communist government is the goal of feminism.” -* Catharine A. MacKinnon*

“I propose that the phenomenon of love is the psychological pivot in the persecution of women.” – Ti-Grace Atkinson in ‘Radical Feminism and Love’

“Women’s liberation, if it abolishes the patriarchal family, will abolish a necessary substructure of the authoritarian state, and once that withers away Marx will have come true willy-nilly, so let’s get on with it.” Germaine Greer

There are zealots in every movement, including religious movements. One could provide quotations from some civil rights leaders who had total contempt for all Caucasians, some gay rights activists who had no use for religion, particularly the Catholic Church, Jewish extremists of the past who wished to exterminate all the Arabs, Muslim extremists who want to annihilate the West, prominent Catholics and Protestants who despise their fellow Christians (some, though not so prominent, even on this forum), pro-lifers who have blown up abortion clinics, animal rights activists who have blown up shelters, and so on. The movement and its masses should not be judged only by the lunatic fringe, including some who are in positions of authority. Marlo Thomas is a radical feminist; so is Judy Collins. Did you ever see and hear Betty Friedan, a radical feminist? The woman looked like an aging Jewish grandmother. None of these women is a zealot, and neither are the majority of radical feminists.

 

[Peepers]

That’s your** opinion.
What do you do with all of the people they have counseled - and brought back to heterosexuality* (not bisexuality)* - based on the idea that many cases of homosexuality is cause by conditioning in the home during the formative years?

You can have your opinions about why you don’t like them - but they are producing real results.

I am not going to engage in cut and paste wars with anyone on this issue. The overwhelming evidence is that they are not getting positive results. You are correct that is MY opinion, based on a very personal interest in the topic. I am gay, and if there were any merit to their claims, I would be talking to them. But there isn’t. This argument is as ridiculous as arguing about evolution. Clinical and scientific data is confused with personal opinion and conjecture to “prove” the unprovable. When Nicolosi et al are no longer the laughing stock of their profession, and they are no longer perceived as acting immorally by their professional peers (not you and me, but those who are qualified to rate the efficacy of their claims, such as the chair of my psychiatry department), then I will pay more attention to them.

Bash away at me. That is my final word on the topic. I know that you will not be of the same opinion, which is why we call them opinions. There is no requirement in this world that we agree with each other. Please don’t take it personally.

 

[elvisman]

I am not going to engage in cut and paste wars with anyone on this issue. The overwhelming evidence is that they are not getting positive results. You are correct that is MY opinion, based on a very personal interest in the topic. I am gay, and if there were any merit to their claims, I would be talking to them. But there isn’t. This argument is as ridiculous as arguing about evolution. Clinical and scientific data is confused with personal opinion and conjecture to “prove” the unprovable. When Nicolosi et al are no longer the laughing stock of their profession, and they are no longer perceived as acting immorally by their professional peers (not you and me, but those who are qualified to rate the efficacy of their claims, such as the chair of my psychiatry department), then I will pay more attention to them.

Bash away at me. That is my final word on the topic. I know that you will not be of the same opinion, which is why we call them opinions. There is no requirement in this world that we agree with each other. Please don’t take it personally.

“Cut and paste wars”?** I am simply providing information. If you find that offensive, then maybe a discussion forum is not the best place for you.**

**As for your being homosexual – maybe you truly ARE. At no time did I ever claim (nor do Dallas and Nicolosi) that ALL homosexuals can be “reversed”. This thread is about the effects of radical feminism being connected to the astronomically-rising numbers of people claiming to be homosexual or bi-sexual. **

The fact is that the work being done by Dallas and Nicolosi and others like them who aren’t afraid to address the topic in a politically correct society run amok HAS validity.

 

[elvisman]

You apparently see radical feminism as an evil, and I think you are making it the source of every other thing you view as evil. But really, what does euthanasia have to do with radical feminism? Or “rampant homosexuality,” which is much more relevant to gay males than lesbians? Do you mean perhaps that radical feminism set the tone for everything else? But why radical feminism? Why not civil rights or gay rights or student protest over Vietnam or liberal politics? All of these movements occurred at about the same time. Although they do correlate with one another, I don’t believe one caused the others. The cause of all this unrest in the late 60s is much more complex and probably multidimensional.

Did you even bother to read my post? I was speaking of the fact that that Pope Paul VI wrote about the genesis of many of these evils in his encyclical Humanae Vitae in 1968. Either he was dead-on in his predictions or the events he spoke of were freakishly coincidental.

As I indicated before – feminism in and of itself isn’t necessarily the problem but it cannot be equated with radical feminism. And, whereas, radical feminism may not be the only cause in this societal decay – is definitely a major cause and history has proven it.

 

[meltzerboy]

“Cut and paste wars”?** I am simply providing information. If you find that offensive, then maybe a discussion forum is not the best place for you.**

---

As for your being homosexual – maybe you truly ARE. At no time did I ever claim (nor do Dallas and Nicolosi) that ALL homosexuals can be “reversed”. This thread is about the effects of radical feminism being connected** to the astronomically-rising numbers of people claiming to be homosexual or bi-sexual. **

---

The fact is that the work being done by Dallas and Nicolosi and others like them who aren’t afraid to address the topic in a politically correct society run amok HAS** validity.**

Are you saying that radical feminism has CAUSED people to become gay, or do you mean that radical feminism has caused people to ADMIT they are gay, giving them license to come out of the closet? If the latter, why is that such a bad thing? Would it be preferable for them to suffer in silence? If the former, what is the evidence for this?

 

[Stephen168]

Maybe i am naive. What does feminism, if by that one means women’s civil and human rights in society, have to do with bisexuality or homosexuality

It depends on what you mean by women’s civil and human rights. If you mean equal treatment under the law or equal opportunity to pursue happiness, then I don’t think feminism has much to do with homosexuality. In the 1990’s, I noticed the “women’s movement” demanded equal outcome, and a majority of their leadership was lesbian. It is this lesbian lead feminism that seems to be anti-male and anti-feminine that I would call radical feminism.

 

[elvisman]

Are you saying that radical feminism has CAUSED people to become gay, or do you mean that radical feminism has caused people to ADMIT they are gay, giving them license to come out of the closet? If the latter, why is that such a bad thing? Would it be preferable for them to suffer in silence? If the former, what is the evidence for this?

Radical feminism at the root of many of the problems I listed - whether it is the direct cause would have to be studied in each case.

The list of quotes from radical feminists provided by John21652 is not made up. The agenda of radical feminism is not only to blur the lines that seperate the sexes but to eliminate them altogether. As a psychologist you must understand that this is not healthy. Men and women ARE different and this should be celebrated instead of being seen as some sort of oppression.

 

[Peepers]

“Cut and paste wars”?** I am simply providing information. If you find that offensive, then maybe a discussion forum is not the best place for you.**

As for your being homosexual – maybe you truly ARE. At no time did I ever claim (nor do Dallas and Nicolosi) that ALL homosexuals can be “reversed”. This thread is about the effects of radical feminism being connected** to the astronomically-rising numbers of people claiming to be homosexual or bi-sexual. **

The fact is that the work being done by Dallas and Nicolosi and others like them who aren’t afraid to address the topic in a politically correct society run amok HAS** validity.**

I would counter that you are providing MIS-information. If you would like some information based on empirical research then here is a link, to the policy on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation: apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/appropriate.aspx

The American Psychiatric Association has a similar policy.

Both of these policies are grounded in solid scientific and behavioral research by thousands of qualified mental health professionals contributing to peer reviewed publications, and not on the opinions of a discredited psychologist with a degree from a school which does not even make the top 200 list, and whose licensing did not require any clinical experience.

Please keep in mind that spreading misinformation on this topic encourages bigotry and hatred. There is a moral obligation here.

 

[Peepers]

From the proceedings of the APA…

…

WHEREAS, Some mental health professionals advocate treatments based on the premise that homosexuality is a mental disorder (e.g., Nicolosi, 1991; Socarides, 1968);

…

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association reaffirms its position that homosexuality per se is not a mental disorder and opposes portrayals of sexual minority youths and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation;
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association concludes that there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation;
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association encourages mental health professionals to avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts by promoting or promising change in sexual orientation when providing assistance to individuals distressed by their own or others’ sexual orientation;
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association concludes that the benefits reported by participants in sexual orientation change efforts can be gained through approaches that do not attempt to change sexual orientation;

…

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association advises parents, guardians, young people, and their families to avoid sexual orientation change efforts that portray homosexuality as a mental illness or developmental disorder and to seek psychotherapy, social support and educational services that provide accurate information on sexual orientation and sexuality, increase family and school support, and reduce rejection of sexual minority youth;

…

In the opinion of his peers, who practice evidence based medicine, Dr. Nicolosi is specifically mentioned, which is highly unusual, as practicing in a way which is detrimental to the mental health of his patients. Parents and guardians are advised to avoid his brand of malpractice.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Peepers
**
In the opinion of his peers, who practice evidence based medicine, Dr. Nicolosi is specifically mentioned, which is highly unusual, as practicing in a way which is detrimental to the mental health of his patients. Parents and guardians are advised to avoid his brand of malpractice. **

Then it must also be your view that the APA should have resolved that the Catholic Church is wrong to regard to teach homosexuality as a sin? I don’t see how it has failed in any other way to excuse homosexuality as a mental disorder … why not also condemn the guilt associated with the sin as taught by the Catholic Church and most of Western Civilization until the disordered psychologists in the APA took over?

Why do you suppose the APA changed its mind about homosexuality as a mental disorder?

O my God, do you suppose because they were tired of taking on so many of them as patients? Or that the insurance companies balked at paying for the high fees of psychological counseling for the millions of disordered homosexuals?

 

[LemonAndLime]

interesting

Women do earn less than men on average in the UK and USA, that is a fact so look it up.

It is against the law to pay a woman less for the same job as a man, but it still happens so I don’t know what you’re trying to suggest. It’s like saying murder still happens, but you say its illegal… interesting. A little bit naiive?

 

[LemonAndLime]

I pointed out what 2 experts on homosexual behavior concluded in their separate, independent research -* not* my own opinion, so calm down.

Secondly, if you are the type of person who gets this riled up over what the experts have to say on the matter - maybe a debate/discussion forum is not the best place for you.

Lastly, the reasearch done by these men does have validity - and you just proved it - your vitriol notwithstanding.
You claimed that “male dominance throughout history is a fact”. It’s only in the last 40 years or so that feminism has really made a significant difference in the household and homosexuality has grown by* leaps and bounds*.

Coincidence? I think not, my angry friend . . .

Maybe that’s just a coincidence? Maybe two things changing are not directly caused by each other?

In the last 40 years or so the average household income has changed, is that linked to advances in technology?

 

[elvisman]

I would counter that you are providing MIS-information. If you would like some information based on empirical research then here is a link, to the policy on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation: apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/appropriate.aspx

The American Psychiatric Association has a similar policy.

Both of these policies are grounded in solid scientific and behavioral research by thousands of qualified mental health professionals contributing to peer reviewed publications, and not on the opinions of a discredited psychologist with a degree from a school which does not even make the top 200 list, and whose licensing did not require any clinical experience.

Please keep in mind that spreading misinformation on this topic encourages bigotry and hatred. There is a moral obligation here.

You are operating under the false assumption that this is a fool-proof science. Psychology is based more on theory than solid fact because everybody is different.

To say that the sources you provided have sealed the lid on all of the complex problems that arise from this topic is preposterous. In EVERY line of medical or psychological therapies there are alternatives because of this very fact.

At NO time did I ever claim that what Joe Dallas and Dr. Nicolosi are doing is the ONLY way to deal with homosexuality issues. Therefore, although it may be an alternative approach - it is certainly not “false information”. They have many cases to prove their point - even if you refuse to accept it.

What do you have to say about the success of these cases? Do you honestly think that they are pulling a fast one - lying about them?

I anxiously await your response.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Spoken like a true radical socialist feminist. Right down to the threat at the end!!

Spoken like a true traditionalist? How dare these women not act like timid little creatures! How dare they be angry when it is suggested that we are to blame for homosexuals! How dare they be angry at the suggestion that we moan about rape too much?

As far as I’m concerned being a feminist means that I believe I should have equal rights compared to men. However, to many on this forum it means I’m a lesbianist radical.

I’m also British, which apparently means I’m socialist.

I want equal rights, which apparently also means I’m socialist.

 

[LemonAndLime]

“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.” – Robin Morgan former actress and founding member of New York radical Women

“Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.” – Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” --* Andrea Dworkin*

“Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice.” – Ti-Grace Atkinson

“If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” –Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” – Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore’s Presidential Campaign.)

“The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist” National NOW Times, January, 1988.

“Overthrowing capitalism is too small for us. We must overthrow the whole…patriarch!” Gloria Steinem, radical feminist leader, editor of MS magazine.

“Let’s forget about the mythical Jesus and look for encouragement, solace, and inspiration from real women… Two thousand years of patriarchal rule under the shadow of the cross ought to be enough to turn women toward the feminist ‘salvation’ of this world.” Annie Laurie Gaylor, “Feminist Salvation,” The Humanist, p. 37, July/August 1988.

Feminism, Socialism, and Communism are one in the same, and Socialist/Communist government is the goal of feminism.” -* Catharine A. MacKinnon*

“I propose that the phenomenon of love is the psychological pivot in the persecution of women.” – Ti-Grace Atkinson in ‘Radical Feminism and Love’

“Women’s liberation, if it abolishes the patriarchal family, will abolish a necessary substructure of the authoritarian state, and once that withers away Marx will have come true willy-nilly, so let’s get on with it.” Germaine Greer

A well-balanced and fair account of ALL feminists in existence…

 

[John21652]

There are zealots in every movement, including religious movements. One could provide quotations from some civil rights leaders who had total contempt for all Caucasians, some gay rights activists who had no use for religion, particularly the Catholic Church, Jewish extremists of the past who wished to exterminate all the Arabs, Muslim extremists who want to annihilate the West, prominent Catholics and Protestants who despise their fellow Christians (some, though not so prominent, even on this forum), pro-lifers who have blown up abortion clinics, animal rights activists who have blown up shelters, and so on. The movement and its masses should not be judged only by the lunatic fringe, including some who are in positions of authority. Marlo Thomas is a radical feminist; so is Judy Collins. Did you ever see and hear Betty Friedan, a radical feminist? The woman looked like an aging Jewish grandmother. None of these women is a zealot, and neither are the majority of radical feminists.

In post #15 you lauded the efforts of radical feminist leaders. Those very same feminist leaders who espoused Marxism and the destruction of the family as the basic unit of society. You ‘owned’ what they were striving for. In post 15 you wrote this -

Without those “radical” feminists, not as many women would have higher aspirations in the workforce today, and society would continue to chug along in its complacency. It takes dynamic leaders to shake up the status quo at times,…

Now you attempt to downplay what it is they strove for. You are now backpeddaling, trying to now paint them as being of the “lunatic fringe”. Your beckpaddaling is now so fast and furious you are tripping over yourself. Your support for all the things that have played a major role in the breakup of society is now very obvious and made more obvious by your attempt at denial. In post #15 you paid homage to the “radical” feminists you now try to disassociate yourself from. You have shot your own credibility to smithereens.

 

[elvisman]

Maybe that’s just a coincidence? Maybe two things changing are not directly caused by each other?

In the last 40 years or so the average household income has changed, is that linked to advances in technology?

And if you’ve read any of my other posts on this thread - much of this was predicted by Humanae Vitae and by others over 40 years ago.

The high school I went to had one professed homosexual in my senior year (28 years ago). He had friends and for the most part, was not bullied or picked on in any way.
My Confirmation students who attend the very same school told me that about 20-30% of the students now claim and openly practice homosexuality. 20 to 30%. That is a staggering statistic - if you believe that ALL homosexuals are simply “born this way” . . .

Tell me - how do you account for the fact that those who claim to be either homosexual or bisexual has grown by leaps and bounds? Is it something the water? Or is it societal conditioning? And if it IS societal conditioning - why do you blind yourself to the radical feminist quotes listed by John21652 in Post #32 - ALL of which are a matter of public record?

 

[elvisman]

A well-balanced and fair account of ALL feminists in existence…

And there you go agaion generalizing what people are saying simply because they have a different opinion than you.

He never said that this was "A well-balanced and fair account of ALL feminists". He was speaking of the RADICAL feminist agenda.

If you can’t discuss the issue without becoming angry, perhaps there are other threads where you would feel more comfortable . . . **

 

[LemonAndLime]

And there you go agaion generalizing what people are saying simply because they have a different opinion than you.

He never said that this was "A well-balanced and fair account of ALL feminists". He was speaking of the RADICAL feminist agenda.

If you can’t discuss the issue without becoming angry, perhaps there are other** threads where you would feel more comfortable . . .

But what was I and others on the “other side” of this debate to him talking about?

I and others have been trying to take about real, non-radical feminists such as myself.

He has responded to our posts by giving quotes from radical feminists. That’s like giving quotes from Westboro Baptise Church to illustrate the views of all Christians.

If you and he cannot discuss the issue without becoming rude, I suggest you participate in other threads and tone your aggression down. I am not going to step out of this thread just because my opinion is not yours, either.