I agree. We don’t know the inside scoop on this. But I do believe that some Bishops are hostile to the Latin. I also think that it would be nice if the Bishops who are in this situation could dialogue with those who are asking for a Mass.
Dialogue yes but
Dialogue yes but it sounds like the OP was being confrontational, which is hardly conducive to dialogue.
Well, sure brother JR, but surely one can simply read off the page. Ecclesiastical Latin’s difficult to speak fluently and to translate but easy to read, since the rules for pronunciation are pretty much constant (though I sometimes stumble on when the “c” should be pronounced “ch” and not “k” – the rules are different for imperial Latin, which I learned). Is this a problem liturgically, if the priest is just kind of reading or reciting from memory?
I agree. cooler heads should prevail. Like I said. I am in a similar diocese. A Latin Mass is offered once a month 5 hours from the main population. We have several priests who could do it at several of the parishes in the main population but the Bishop allows it only 5 hours away in a rural location. So, many here in the main area just cannot allow for 10 hours of travel time just to go to Mass. I’m sure the Bishop has his reasons, it would just be nice to know what they are. Honestly, he is the Bishop, he doesn’t owe us any kind of explanation at all but I would think it would cut down on the frustration and misunderstandings and I would think that would be a plus for the diocese. As far as the 2 Mass rule as I have stated before,
Oh well, Jesus is Jesus no matter what the Mass.
Well, there’s Mass in Latin, and then there’s the Tridentine Mass…Whcih one are you wanting? Both do require the person to READ Latin, and know some basics, that most any Catholic will know. It is a little controversial because the Tridentine Mass was pre-Vatican II…many priests believe it is focused on individual salvation and in our current times, people have not been raised in the pre-1962 ways of the Tridentine Mass. I don’t think a bishop is required to instruct one of his diocese churches to celebrate a Tridentine Mass. The people are really not involved and the priest does not face the people except when reading the vernacular of what he just read in Latin, and then the homily, which has to be so short because he just read the readings twice. It is very beautiful with the candles, and incense, but it is not required…In my whole diocese only one church has it, and no one is friendly or involved in any ministries. the priest doesn’t even meet the people after the Mass. Tridentine Masses, as I said are beautiful, but your bishop doesn’t have to cater to you personally, or even to a small group. The only reason it happens at our church is it is run by the Norbertine’s and there are about 7 priests, so we don’t even have Eucharistic ministers during Mass at anytime…as it really should be…But they have the extra time and the people of that church want it, and it just so happens the priest who performs the Mass knows how to perform a Tridentine Mass. I know people are trying to get back to the "way it was’ but anything that grows has some change and the Church is growing. I would think you need to be respective of your bishop, and not think he owes you what you want. You get the same graces from either type of Mass
God Bless you brother! Don’t be discouraged! If you have a stable group that wishes to have the TLM, present your petition to Him. If refused, make your appeal to the Ecclesia Dei Commission. Yes your priest can learn latin and celebrate the latin mass for you on his own, however, he may find himself in some remote parish or office job and be pressured to discontinue his opposition to the bishop. We’ve encountered the same situation in the Dioceses’ of Greensburg, Pa. The Ecclesia Dei commission has contacted our bishop and we are awaiting our reply. The wheels turn slowly, believe me, Our first petition (approx. 500 petitioners) was presented in 2005 and nothing has been resolved to this date!
What you’re describing is called decoding. Decoding is when you can pronounce what’s on the printed page. However, the Holy Father is requiring fluency, which means that you must be able to read and fully comprehend every word that you say.
God Bless you brother! So you believe in “collective salvation”? WOW! Vatican instructions explicitly allow any priest who is competent to say the Traditional Latin Mass without the permission of the Bishop! It can be requested by a stable group even though they do not belong to the same parish. There are no Eucharistic Ministers serving in the Traditional Latin Mass and never have been! Sorry, the Mass is not performed! It is offered! I could go on, but you almost left me speechless!
Huh, I didn’t know fluency was required. Interesting. Thanks, brother JR.What you’re describing is called decoding. Decoding is when you can pronounce what’s on the printed page. However, the Holy Father is requiring fluency, which means that you must be able to read and fully comprehend every word that you say.
This is not too difficult with those parts of the mass that never change. After a while, you have them memorized (ie. Pater, Sanctus, etc). It presents a challenge with the collect, because they change according to the day. Obviously, I would not even suggest that one try to read the scripture in Latin unless one is fluent.
I understand where the Holy Father is going with this. It’s not just a matter of clear pronunciation, you must actually speak the language, so that when changes come up, such as the readings and the collects, you not saying words that you don’t understand and you don’t have spend time with a dictionary or translation before the mass so that you know what it is that you’re saying during the mass.
He’s thinking about fluency like most of the people who occupy high posts at the Vatican, including him. These people are so familiar with Latin that they can pick up any prayer book, missal, piece of scripture or document, read it and comprehend it without any assistance. Some of them are so good that they can sit down and write in Latin without the use of dictionaries or grammar books.
I don’t think that he’s requiring priests to be able to write or converse in Latin. But he is certainly requiring them to be able to pick up the missal or the lectionary and read it fluently; that is, read it and comprehend without the aid of dictionaries or grammar books. That requires practice. I can speak to this from person experience as well. I serve in an area where Spanish and Creole are very common. After several years, I can pick up a newspaper in either language and read it fluently, meaning that I can translate it for you as I go long. This is the kid of fluency that the law requires of a priest who celebrates the EF. Again, it’s not impossible, but it takes practice.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I always learn something from your posts.That would be my suggestion as well. It can be quite a shock to those who are used to an all-English Mass when first attending an EF. Quite often they attend one TLM and never go back; the bishop knows this. Asking for inclusion of Latin Sanctus or Pater Noster in the OF would at least indicate to the bishop that there is at least the interest in the Latin and could be much more immediately workable than committing fully to a weekly EF. As they say, first things first.
After SP, from what I 've heard, our now-retired bishop received requests for the EF. He told his priests that if they wanted to do a EF, they would have to start another Mass. They weren’t to convert any of the existing Masses from OF to EF. Interest quickly waned. We luckily have enough priests so that each parish has a pastor and there are enough priests to go around so that the five or six major parishes have a parochial vicar. For most priests of the diocese, they are left alone to four or five Sunday Masses by themselves so adding another is out of the question.
This line in the UE is the glitch.Huh, I didn’t know fluency was required. Interesting. Thanks, brother JR.
Very interesting. I have heard many Spanish Masses where the padre bumbled through the words and didn’t have a clue what he was saying and unfortunately neither did many in the congregation.Huh, I didn’t know fluency was required. Interesting. Thanks, brother JR.
You’re not really supposed to do that unless it’s a necessity. I know a parish that has a very large Spanish and Creole speaking community. The priests were moved around and the two priests assigned to the parish are Chinese and Haitian. Until they can hire a priest who can celebrate the Spanish mass, the two guys do the best they can. But that would be considered a matter of necessity and it’s a temporary fix until a Spanish speaking priest can be hired. It should not be the regular thing.
Br JR, you’re probably right. Yet so many priests through the last 30-40 years have had to resort to some kind of illegitimate status (FSSPX, independent chapels, private homes, etc.) and risk health benefits, etc. to say the Traditional Latin Mass. With all the accusations of schism, disobedience, sinful pride, etc. being hurled against such priests, many other priests and laity probably think or feel the TLM or even any Latin is unCatholic. Judging by the many comments made here and elsewhere, that paradigm will be hard to shift IMO, in spite of the FSSP, ICRSS, and 2007 SP.
We have several layers going on here.