Bishop Banning Latin Mass

[Mrs_Sally]

By golly, I’m tired of hearing the word ‘obedience’ used in relation to traditionalist concerns. It’s taken about 40 years for the Church to state that, why, yes, after all, to have a Latin Mass is perfectly fine. In another 40, it will state that altar girls, CITH, sappy hymns and socialist flirtations weren’t such good ideas after all.

While that process grinds on, you’ll still have people equating obedience with approving local experimentation. As a layman, I don’t know what obedience means for me in practical terms. No bishop is telling me I must like the novelties and cannot prefer an old rite mass. I’m not a religious or a priest.

Of course you may prefer the the EF. Many of us do. What you (or any of us)can’t do is demand the EF, or any other preferences of ours. We can ask. We can pray. But we can’t demand.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I understand your frustration. It sure must be nice for some of these people to live in diocese that have a great Bishop. I wonder what they would think if they lived in some of the places I have.

The Church has always had mediocre bishops and great bishops.Not everyone is as gifted in liturgy. Even though your bishop may not be excited about the EF, doesn’t mean he is a bad man or a bad bishop.

I am sure that it is much harder in rural areas or places with few Catholics because of the distances involved with getting to an EF. However, those are the same concerns the bishop has about ensuring the sacraments are available for all his flock. Priests can be stretched way too thin and the bishop has to be concerned about that as well.

Pray for your bishop and your priest.They definately need it!

 

[JReducation]

And you presume what we are thinking…??? Yes…we have a right to question in serious matters! And you make the stretch of Acts 5:1-11 to this discussion? I do not withhold from the Church, I can withhold from the Bishop in my diocese and give it elsewhere! If the bishop is in direct conflict with the Holy Father, we can make our appeal through the Ecclesia Dei Commission, which many have done and if the Bishop still refuses, Yes we can withhold from him, but not the Church! He is not the Church!

Slow down Silver Thread. You’re saying that you can withhold from the bishop of your diocese without withholding from the Church. But the bishop is the Church in a canonical sense. Without him, there is no local Church. That’s a fundamental theological principle in ecclesiology.

Canon Law commands us to support the apostolic work of the local Church, which the bishop oversees. Whether we make a check to the bishop or to the local Catholic homeless shelter is not the issue, because it would get there either way. Our obligation remains in place. That does not change, because we are having difficulties with the bishop anymore than his obligations toward his people, because they’re causing him a headache. The bishop must never be seen as the enemy, unless he is truly an enemy of the Church.

As far as appealing to the Ecclesia Dei Commission, I don’t know what you have heard about the Ecclesia Dei Commission and its authority. I have noticed here on CAF that some people tend to inflate the authority of the Commission, because of their passion for the EF. It’s almost as if the two were in correlation. The more passionate the individual is about the EF, the greater the person assumes is the power of the ED Commission and the less the power of the bishop. The truth is that their power, authority and resources are rooted in reality, not in our passion.

Ecclesia Dei does not have jurisdiction over the bishops. They have never been given that kind of authority. Ecclesia Dei mediates resolutions and provides assistance. Only the prefects of the sacred congregations have that kind of authority and it is limited to the area that the particular congregation governs. For example, the Prefect for Consecrated Life has no authority over any bishop, unless the case involves religious. The same for the other sacred congregations.

The ED Commission operates under the auspices of the Sacred Congregation for the Faith. It answers to Cardinal Levada, though it has its own director. It was moved to that spot to strengthen its reach and at the same time to modulate its activities. While it is part of a much larger ecclesial congregation in they Curia, it is also subject to that congregation. Rough riding over bishops is not one of its rights. It’s role is to be a resource to bishops and to those institutes that wish to celebrate the EF. It’s neither a complaint department nor a court of appeal. A bishop can legally disagree with any commission. A commission does not have the same authority as a congregation. In other words, commissions do not have authority over bishops. They are created to serve not to govern.

I have seen my share of people claiming that they or someone they know has appealed to a commission and that the commission “put the bishop in his place,” only to find out that the person misunderstood what really happened. The commission offered the bishop some assistance and the bishop accepted it or the commission answered a question or corrected a misunderstanding that either the faithful or the bishop may have had. Misunderstandings on these matters are going to abound, because this is very new and the Holy Father did not give too many specifics and did not address every possible situation.

Judging from how nuanced SP and UE are, it is very obvious that Pope Benedict realized that he was not covering all the bases and so he left plenty of wiggle room for bishops, religious superiors and clergy. I am of the belief that as things become clearer and certain situations become repetitive, then we will see more specific regulations.

We have to put distance between us and the belief that the EF is a legal right. That’s not precisely what SP says. It says that it is the legal right of the diocesan priest to celebrate it while preserving the harmony in the diocese and the parish. It’s not saying , “Celebrate it come hell or high water and don’t worry about how it may inconvenience your pastor, your parishioners and your bishop.” It’s a very different approach from that. Both documents call for unity and cooperation. They also remind us of the fact that the bishop is the primary liturgist in the diocese.

We have to approach this with less anger and more gently.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JReducation]

A visiting priest from an order that says the TLM was visiting ailing parents and wanted to say the Mass at this 3rd priest’s parish. He was allowed with the condition he told no one about it. Like he was afraid “somebody” would find out he allowed this priest to celebrate Mass there.

Are you sure that the person who reported this story explained all of the facts?

Let me let you in a little secret, because I belong to a religious community. When a regular priest is away from his province, such as visiting his family, he can approach any church and request permission to celebrate mass. As long as he has a letter of obedience in his pocket, the pastor must allow him to celebrate a private mass.

Because the priest is an extern, he does not have a right to celebrate a public mass unless there is a good reason, such as a wedding, funeral, First Communion, mission, or some other pastoral reason.

In addition, no regular priest may celebrate the EF in public without the permission of his religious superior. Normally, religious superiors do not grant this permission to priests who are simply visiting their relatives. Your visiting priest may have not had permission to celebrate a public EF.

Regular priests are not free to celebrate the EF in public as are diocesan priests. They must have the permission of their community to do so. This permission can be restricted to certain places.

I’m not saying this is what happened here. I’m asking if this was possible or does your source know for sure that the religious superior granted permission for a public EF. And does your source know that a local pastor is not bound to grant an extern a public mass unless there is a pastoral reason for it?

The Church has always had mediocre bishops and great bishops.Not everyone is as gifted in liturgy. **Even though your bishop may not be excited about the EF, doesn’t mean he is a bad man or a bad bishop. **

I am sure that it is much harder in rural areas or places with few Catholics because of the distances involved with getting to an EF. However, those are the same concerns the bishop has about ensuring the sacraments are available for all his flock. Priests can be stretched way too thin and the bishop has to be concerned about that as well.

Pray for your bishop and your priest.They definately need it!

I like the point that I bolded. The EF may not be one of the bishop’s top 10 concerns. However, he may also have excellent services for his priests, deacons, seminarians, religious and laity. He may have wonderful services for the poor, sick, preborn child and other voiceless members of society. His theology may be impeccable. His administrative skills are good and he tries to be as fair as possible in the many issue that cross his desk.

He can be a person with a very deep life of prayer and penance. He may also be a person who is very concerned about those things that he must absolutely provide for his flock and put those things that are not essential on hold, because he does not have resources or because they are not priorities in his mind.

Not everything that we see as a priority is a priority to another person, especially when that other person sits in the chair from where he can see a bigger picture of the local Church.

We have slow down and stop demonizing bishops because they don’'t provide an EF. There is much more that goes into being a bishop and there are many more demands on a bishop and on a diocese.

We have to make our wishes known to the bishop and we have to be prudent in our response to his response.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[pnewton]

I understand your frustration. It sure must be nice for some of these people to live in diocese that have a great Bishop. I wonder what they would think if they lived in some of the places I have.

You have a point. it is easy for people like me to stick up for the bishops and point out the limits of lay authority. I am satisfied with things where I live. Look at it this way, those who are given the greatest crosses will have the greatest rewards. After all, if you know the right thing to do, even if it is the hard thing, then God will provide the grace and the means.

Pray for these bishops, yes, but let us also pray for those who have difficult parishes or dioceses. They too need wisdom, and even more than their share of patience. At least as Catholics, we can find meaning in suffering.

 

[Marchmain1987]

I can sympathize with the original post. I prefer the EF. I wish I could fulfill obligation every Sunday by attending it. However, that just isn’t possible. The only two parishes in my diocese that celebrate it are 100 miles from my home:

1. One parish celebrates the EF every month with a Solemn High Mass (and a Low Mass during the week). However, the pastor is thinking about the OF (ad orientem, with some Latin, and with the *Asperges Me *as a prelude) for the Saturday Vigil. A wonderful thing – but still 100 miles away. This is the one I attend when I can (however, I always go to the OF at my parish Sunday – it just seems the right thing to do as Our Lord placed me in that specific parish).
2. The other is the Episcopal See of the diocese and they have the EF every Sunday. However, it is a famous landmark in the historic district and a booger (that is a nice way of putting it, lol) to find a place to park on Sunday.

As a recent convert, I can say that attending the EF (when I could) while in RCIA was a gift from Our Lord. And, dare I say it; a Solemn High Mass is about as close to Heaven as one can get on this Earth. Honestly, the sublime beauty of Church art and the Liturgy itself played a part in my conversion to Catholicism.

However, I am not likely to get that expressed in the High Western European tradition that I find irresistible in my local parish. But I can also say I found consolation and peace from Our Lord in my local parish: even with its same-old-same-old out of tune Kyrie (and Dan Schuette hymns) every Sunday.

Sometimes we just have to make due – either way, when we receive Christ on Sunday we are as close to him at that moment as all who knew him when he walked on the Earth. And that really is something blessed, isn’t it?

 

[Marie5890]

(A bit of a tangent here, Bro. Jay. Is there some sort of book out there that can explain the structure of the Church for the laity?. Ie the different congregations and what they do. How the Curia works. The ebb and flow of the, for lack of a better term, institutional church goes about it’s work and inter-acts with each other?..From all that you write and explain in details, I get the sense it quite an vast organization with of of it parts…Does this make sense? Thanks…)

 

[Moore11]

The Church has always had mediocre bishops and great bishops.Not everyone is as gifted in liturgy. Even though your bishop may not be excited about the EF, doesn’t mean he is a bad man or a bad bishop.

I am sure that it is much harder in rural areas or places with few Catholics because of the distances involved with getting to an EF. However, those are the same concerns the bishop has about ensuring the sacraments are available for all his flock. Priests can be stretched way too thin and the bishop has to be concerned about that as well.

Pray for your bishop and your priest.They definately need it!

It is so important to pray for priests and Bishops.
It isn’t about the rural aspect where I live. I suppose we are rural in most people’s eyes and certainly parts of our diocese is rural but not having the priests to say the Latin Mass has never been a problem. (see my previous post.) We have an English Mass, Polish Mass, a Spanish Mass, a Portuguese, Mass and an African Mass and a Basque Mass But no Latin Mass except once a month 5 Hours and hundreds of miles away in a rural outpost. And I must confess that it is hard to not assume that it is that way on purpose. But we are called to be obedient to our Shepard and to exercise Charity, and to defer to those who are Called By God to be our leaders. So I have to fight the temptation to want to assume the worst.

 

[Moore11]

You have a point. it is easy for people like me to stick up for the bishops and point out the limits of lay authority. I am satisfied with things where I live. Look at it this way, those who are given the greatest crosses will have the greatest rewards. After all, if you know the right thing to do, even if it is the hard thing, then God will provide the grace and the means.

Pray for these bishops, yes, but let us also pray for those who have difficult parishes or dioceses. They too need wisdom, and even more than their share of patience. At least as Catholics, we can find meaning in suffering.

Thank you. Sometimes just the acknowledgement that some of us do not have it as good as others makes it better.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

One of the **precepts **of the Church is to support the Church.

Withholding money in “protest” presumes that the Church is there to please us and/or there is some kind of popularity contest, and/or we are paying fo some kind of “service” and we have a right to complain.

sigh The Trads at my parish tried to pull that stunt and almost lost their FSSP house and TLM.

 

[JReducation]

(A bit of a tangent here, Bro. Jay. Is there some sort of book out there that can explain the structure of the Church for the laity?. Ie the different congregations and what they do. How the Curia works. The ebb and flow of the, for lack of a better term, institutional church goes about it’s work and inter-acts with each other?..From all that you write and explain in details, I get the sense it quite an vast organization with of of it parts…Does this make sense? Thanks…)

You know, I don’t know if there is one our for public use. There must be something on Church Government. Religious men and diocesan clergy have a manual called the Modus Procedendi, which goes side by side with the Code of Canon Law and the Commentary on Canon Law. In the Modus Procedendi, every procedure is mapped out for us. It’s reviewed and renewed every several years, becausse things change very suddently in the Vatican. It’s not the the US Govt where things have to go through a long drawn out process of discussion, committees and votes. All it take is one congregation, one commission, or one pope to change a procedure. For example, look at how the Holy Father moved the ED Commission from a papal commission that depended on the Apostolic See to a branch of the Congregation for the Faith. One sentence and it was done.

Something like that is not in the current Modus Procedendi. We have to save the Motu Propio as an insert. Eventually, when the next edition is published, it will be in there.

But I’m sure that if you look under Church Government, there must be a book that has all of the departments, commissions, congregations and committees, as well as procedures. Don’t expect it to remain current for very long. Those things change suddenly.

sigh The Trads at my parish tried to pull that stunt and almost lost their FSSP house and TLM.

DG, you’re right about that. There is a canon that says that the laity can be put under interdict for harassing the bishop. It uses more sophisticated language. It means harassing, blackmailing, putting pressure on the bishop, trying to control him,etc.

**Can. 1373 - A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties. **

The bishop is an ordinary. His actions on the matter of the EF are a use of his power and fall under his ecclesiastical ministry. Encouraging anyone to withhold financial support is encouraging a form of disobedience, because it’s an oppositional stance.

The bishop can deny the EF permanently and if pushed can put the entire parish under interdict.

One of the caveats of UE and SP is that the group requesting the EF cannot subscribe to any group that is in conflict with the Holy See. They were referring to the SSPX, but this kind of move would be the same. You’re creating a conflict.

It’s not the brightest move in the book. The laity must remember that it does not enjoy the right of exemption. This right is only allowed to male religious and some female communities. The laity is always to be subordinate and obedient to the local bishop. It is never exempt from his authority, unless he commands what is contrary to Canon Law, dogma or morals. The EF is not covered by Canon Law, dogma or morals.

The Holy Father deliberately did not create a canon to cover the EF. It’s very interesting. When Cardinal Ratzinger was Pope John Paul’s Prefect for the Faith, he wrote several laws that were inserted into Canon Law so as to bind everyone involved. One of them was the excommunication of those who complete an abortion. The other was the dismissal from the clerical state of those who violated minors. The second law was modified around the year 2000 to expedite the dismissal.

The same man becomes pope, writes SP and UE, but does not create a law to bind those affected by it. He leaves it open for future changes. In fact, he says so in one of the documents. I can’t remember which, right now. He says that he hopes to hear from the bishops in three years time. That particular statement, indicates that the document is not a law. The Church is not in the business of writing laws with a footnote that says, “Give us feedback in three-years. If this does not work, we’ll change it.”.

Those who try to push the bishop on something that is not law and use force to push, can be subject to the penalties in Canon 1373. The bishop can interpret encouraging people to withhold money as a form of insubordination. As the highest ranking canonist in the diocese, the interpretation of the law and its application is his to make. I would not encourage anyone to follow those who suggest that you go down that path.

If you withhold money because the bishop is not using it appropriately, you may have a case. If you withhold it because he’s not giving you what you want, you don’t have a case. Canon Law does bind bishops to use money judiciously and honestly. This situation does not fall under that category.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[WFS5801]

I think protesting is going over the top.

You can have a signature drive to request for the EF in your parish to substantiate your number. Otherwise, ask for the grace of humility, and obey your bishop.

Isn’t the bishop supposed to obey the Pope with grace and humility as well?

 

[Stylites]

Bishops can govern on any matter, temporal or spiritual that relate to his diocese and the people in his jurisdiction. This is part of the tradition of the Church that goes back to the Apostles.

So obedience to the ordinary is traditional, while disobedience, second-guessing, demanding and backbiting are examples of modernism.

 

[WFS5801]

In addition, if such a group could start collecting funds for supporting such a Mass, it would help establish them as stable.

Isn’t this nice, we’re all lawyers using weasel words. If the priest is willing (in charity we must accept the word of the OP on this matter) and there are those who have requested the Latin Mass, and the vestments and supplies are available, why should the Bishop object? Believe it or not, some bishops are just simply against the Latin Mass, they’ve decided they won’t accept it. Unfortunately for them, the Pope has made it clear they do NOT have to the right to deny the Latin Mass to those who request it.

 

[JReducation]

So obedience to the ordinary is traditional, while disobedience, second-guessing, demanding and backbiting are examples of modernism.

No, Modernism was a movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. Demanding and backbiting dates back to the time of Moses, remember the Jews in the desert?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Silver_Thread]

(A bit of a tangent here, Bro. Jay. Is there some sort of book out there that can explain the structure of the Church for the laity?. Ie the different congregations and what they do. How the Curia works. The ebb and flow of the, for lack of a better term, institutional church goes about it’s work and inter-acts with each other?..From all that you write and explain in details, I get the sense it quite an vast organization with of of it parts…Does this make sense? Thanks…)

Pray pay and obey seems to have been the operative words in the Church for quite some time! Step out of line and you find out how many laws there are that you have violated. Much like our Federal, state and local governments. As long as the money pours in everything is cool.

 

[Silver_Thread]

Isn’t the bishop supposed to obey the Pope with grace and humility as well?

Only when it suits him!

 

[Jane_of_Arc]

But it is feasable we have a proper church with a traditional alter, traditional latin vestments and everything our priest is even willing to learn latin. In the mean time there are other priests in the diocese that can preform it that know latin.

The pope’s words & wishes trump any words & wishes of a Bishop. In Summoum Pontificum & the Motu Proprio say that is a stable group of parishoners ask for this Mass, their desires should be granted. Go to Ecclesia Dei for help.

 

[PJM]

=MaryZ30;9255814]Hi, as most of you know I go to **X Church. ** Anyway, I recently emailed the bishop and told him of peoples interest including myself of the spiritual need to have a latin mass. He told me he is refusing to allow us to celebrate the latin mass because he does not believe it is needed, and our priest doesnt know latin. Its true **Father X **doesnt know latin but he is willing to learn and wants to start a latin mass chapter in our diocese. However, our bishop is putting a stop to this. What can I do im asking all those here that know the beauty of the latin mass to write him in protest. Perhaps then he will see the error of his ways. God bless Mary

PRAY a Rosary every day for him.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Did any of you read ***anything ***that Br. Jay has written in this thread??!!
Maybe you should go back and re-read!

@ Br. Jay-
Thank you again for the wonderful information & education!
As always, you & your community will be in my prayers!

Isn’t this nice, we’re all lawyers using weasel words. If the priest is willing (in charity we must accept the word of the OP on this matter) and there are those who have requested the Latin Mass, and the vestments and supplies are available, why should the Bishop object? Believe it or not, some bishops are just simply against the Latin Mass, they’ve decided they won’t accept it. Unfortunately for them, the Pope has made it clear they do NOT have to the right to deny the Latin Mass to those who request it.

Pray pay and obey seems to have been the operative words in the Church for quite some time! Step out of line and you find out how many laws there are that you have violated. Much like our Federal, state and local governments. As long as the money pours in everything is cool.

The pope’s words & wishes trump any words & wishes of a Bishop. In Summoum Pontificum & the Motu Proprio say that is a stable group of parishoners ask for this Mass, their desires should be granted. Go to Ecclesia Dei for help.