Bishop Banning Latin Mass

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I agree that they are not a ban. But the Bishop could certainly use them as an excuse in order to effectively ban the EF because the Bishop is diametrically opposed to the EF. It is unfortunate that priests cannot rely on SP to protect them if the Bishop is against the EF for reasons other than the ones you listed.
Don’t the Bishops need protection as well, and do documents not have to reflect their status and authority of having the fullness of the priesthood? It seems to me that SP is designed to reflect this.
I think this is one reason why the SSPX wants greater autonomy from the local Bishops, so that they can work in a diocese were the EF has been banned in deed (but not in word). Such Bishops would never allow the SSPX into the diocese, so the faithful have no way to get to an EF Mass short of long travel.
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There are orthodox Bishops who don’t want the SSPX in their diocese. Some of this goes beyond simply not preferring the Extraordinary Form, but goes into the complex nature of the Society and not wanting their presence there.

Not having the EF available or not having the SSPX around doesn’t mean you hate the EF, it could mean several things.
 
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The SSPX side is hinting that they will also be free to establish new priories and chapels even contrary to the wishes of local bishops. I find that kind of hard to believe,d).
If the come in under a personal prelature or personal ordinature, then they are either directly under the Pope, or under their own bishop.

It would function in much the same way as the chaple on a military base. The chapel is build regardless of what the local bishop thinks because it falls under the Archdiocese of the Military.

Likewise, the staffing of the chapel on the military base comes from the Archdiocese of the Military, not the local bishop, and the regulation of the Mass schedule etc… the list goes on and on.

That is the type of arrangement being discussed with the SSPX.

If it’s a personal prelature, then the bishop in charge is the Pope directly. If a chaple is built, it is because the Pope has granted permission, or more probably has delegated that permission to the SSPX. This is how Opus Dei operates.

If it’s a personal ordinature, the Pope appoints a Bishop and that particular bishop is who gives permission and authority. That is (kind of) how the Archdiocese of the Military operates, and how the new Anglican Use Ordinature operates.
 
I agree that they are not a ban. But the Bishop could certainly use them as an excuse in order to effectively ban the EF because the Bishop is diametrically opposed to the EF. It is unfortunate that priests cannot rely on SP to protect them if the Bishop is against the EF for reasons other than the ones you listed.
If one of those conditions or another similar one exists, it’s not a ban. The bishop got lucky. 😃
I think this is one reason why the SSPX wants greater autonomy from the local Bishops, so that they can work in a diocese were the EF has been banned in deed (but not in word). Such Bishops would never allow the SSPX into the diocese, so the faithful have no way to get to an EF Mass short of long travel.
We don’t know what they’re going to get .
If the come in under a personal prelature or personal ordinature, then they are either directly under the Pope, or under their own bishop.

It would function in much the same way as the chaple on a military base. The chapel is build regardless of what the local bishop thinks because it falls under the Archdiocese of the Military.

Likewise, the staffing of the chapel on the military base comes from the Archdiocese of the Military, not the local bishop, and the regulation of the Mass schedule etc… the list goes on and on.

That is the type of arrangement being discussed with the SSPX.

If it’s a personal prelature, then the bishop in charge is the Pope directly. If a chaple is built, it is because the Pope has granted permission, or more probably has delegated that permission to the SSPX. This is how Opus Dei operates.

If it’s a personal ordinature, the Pope appoints a Bishop and that particular bishop is who gives permission and authority. That is (kind of) how the Archdiocese of the Military operates, and how the new Anglican Use Ordinature operates.
If they become a prelature, unless the rules are changed, they would have the same rules as Opus Dei. Opus Dei has a bishop, but he is not the ordinary. He has the same rights a superior general has. The Opus Dei gets its faculties form the local bishop and must get the permission of the local bishop to enter the diocese. The personal prelature was created to give an institute of secular priests, that has a very specific ministry, but does not have the canonical rights of an order in solemn vows, the same protection as an order.

This does not mean that the Holy See cannot change the rules. But currently, the only prelature is Opus Dei and it does get its faculties and permission to enter a diocese from the local bishop, just like Dominicans, Franciscans, Benedictines and other orders. Once they’re in, they are free to minister to those who approach them. They may not market to draw people away from the parishes.

The Military Ordinariate no longer exists in the USA. It is now a full archdiocese with all of the rights of an archdiocese except for two. The Archbishop cannot ordain and cannot erect a seminary. He must beg the dioceses and religious superiors to lend him men. An ordinariate does not have the same rights as a diocese. An ordinariate has an ordinary and is responsible for a very specific population. It cannot serve people outside of his target population. Other than Holy Communion and confession, it must refer outsiders back to their diocese. The identity of an outsider is easy to prove by a baptismal certificate. I’m not sure if an ordinariate has the right to erect seminaries, invite religious communities in or found it’s own. I have not heard that they can do so. A diocese can do all of these things. A prelature can found a seminary, erect religious communities and ordain its own men.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Don’t the Bishops need protection as well, and do documents not have to reflect their status and authority of having the fullness of the priesthood? It seems to me that SP is designed to reflect this.
I do agree, absolutely.
There are orthodox Bishops who don’t want the SSPX in their diocese. Some of this goes beyond simply not preferring the Extraordinary Form, but goes into the complex nature of the Society and not wanting their presence there.
Again, I agree. The SSPX situation is a complicated one and hopefully there will be greater clarification very soon, for all involved. I, for one, would like the truly schismatic elements purged from the society, and I think that will happen if regularization occurs (because they will not want to be a part of it).
Not having the EF available or not having the SSPX around doesn’t mean you hate the EF, it could mean several things.
Very true.
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Eventually, I think, Catholics will realise that saying Mass in Latin is not brain surgery. It’s not even as difficult as learning the role of Macbeth. As a language, Latin is simple. And you have cue cards, if you get lost! So the “We don’t have the resources” argument won’t wash, after a while.

I would say it’s a gift to a priest who just wants to get on with the job. It’s much less personalised. And you might find it interesting to see who strenuously objects to it being said in your parish 😉

Courage, mes braves!
 
If one of those conditions or another similar one exists, it’s not a ban. The bishop got lucky. 😃
Ha. But, jokes aside, I hope Bishops don’t use the letter of the law (whatever possible legit reasons for not having the EF) to stifle the spirit of the law (to offer it generously to all those who ask for it).

But Bishops are human, too…
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I agree that they are not a ban. But the Bishop could certainly use them as an excuse in order to effectively ban the EF because the Bishop is diametrically opposed to the EF. It is unfortunate that priests cannot rely on SP to protect them if the Bishop is against the EF for reasons other than the ones you listed.
  • PAX
Wow. We need “protection” because it’s possible we might not have something our own way because maybe, possibly, the Bishop just doesn’t like it?

Guess what? *That’s a perfectly valid reason because he is the Bishop. * He is not answering to you or subject to your desires or mine. He doesn’t have to give us an answer, our job is to be eternally grateful Christ came to us in the first place and we can still be with Him in the Eucharist today without anyone crucifying us for it.

After reading this thread, I think the EF should be done away with altogether.
 
  1. The lay people who are asking self-identify as SSPXers. SSPXers are not allowed to ask for the EF, one of the conditions laid out by the Holy Father.
Sort of a Catch-22 here, no?

SSPXers seem to be some of the few who know what the EF is, but can’t ask for it. 😦
 
Sort of a Catch-22 here, no?

SSPXers seem to be some of the few who know what the EF is, but can’t ask for it. 😦
If they don’t identify themselves with SSPX, there shouldn’t be a problem, no? Its possible to go to a SSPX chapel and not consider yourself a part of the order, or as though you ‘belong’ to it.
 
After reading this thread, I think the EF should be done away with altogether.
By similar logic, maybe the vernacular should be done away with altogether since on the other forum no one seems to agree to the correct translation.
 
Seriously though, we need to avoid reactionary statements and thoughts. I think the majority of the issues people have are solely based off of being reactionary. You had a bad experience at a EF Mass? Well then, the EF should be suppressed and the FSSP is no different than the SSPV! Bad experiences with the OF? Quick, to the local SSPX chapel and second guess your local Bishop!
I purposedly avoid the Byzantine threads, probably for that reason. 🙂
This is probably for the best, yes 😉
 
Seriously though, we need to avoid reactionary statements and thoughts. I think the majority of the issues people have are solely based off of being reactionary. You had a bad experience at a EF Mass? Well then, the EF should be suppressed and the FSSP is no different than the SSPV! Bad experiences with the OF? Quick, to the local SSPX chapel and second guess your local Bishop!
Sarcasm notwithstanding, on that principle we agree.
 
Eventually, I think, Catholics will realise that saying Mass in Latin is not brain surgery. It’s not even as difficult as learning the role of Macbeth. As a language, Latin is simple. And you have cue cards, if you get lost! So the “We don’t have the resources” argument won’t wash, after a while.

I would say it’s a gift to a priest who just wants to get on with the job. It’s much less personalised. And you might find it interesting to see who strenuously objects to it being said in your parish 😉

Courage, mes braves!
I agree that it’s not brain surgery. But I also feel that we on the Traditionalist side of the aisle have to accept the fact that many people don’t want to use Latin and they have a right not to use it. We can’t to them what was done with the Tridentine form, suddenly deny the right to use the local language.

I’m remembering St. Maximilian Kolbe. When he was sent to Japan as the national superior of the Franciscans, he ordered the friars to celebrate the mass in Japanese. When questioned by the bishop, his answer was very simple. “The Friars are here to raise up Japanese Catholics, not to transplant European Catholicism to Japan. In time, we can introduce the the European customs.” He was right. It was much more difficult for the friars to use Japanese than to use Latin. He never learned Japanese, only enough to say mass. But with the passage of time, the friars very gently and slowly tauth the Japanese their Franciscan traditions, which are very European. Today, the Franciscans are the largest religious community in Japan and even the diocesan priests use the Franciscan missal, which is in both Latin and Japanese. The people don’t mind the Latin, because it was not shoved down their throats. St. Max stopped that practice. St. Francis Xavier had tried to do the same in China centuries before, but died before he succeeded.
Ha. But, jokes aside, I hope Bishops don’t use the letter of the law (whatever possible legit reasons for not having the EF) to stifle the spirit of the law (to offer it generously to all those who ask for it).

But Bishops are human, too…
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I would like to see the bishops give it a shot. I know that in my diocese the bishop himself celebrated the EF not too long ago. He wanted to show the clergy what it looked like and that it could be done without splitting the parish. But he is also very gentle. He does not demand that his priests do this. If they want to do it, he helps them find a way and if there is no way, he simply says, “Let’s wait.” It’s never a flat “No.”

The only time that they ever get a flat “No” has been when they have asked the religious. None of the religious superiors in our diocese allow their priests to celebrate the EF for the laity. That also has a sad history. The laity in some places has been very hostile toward religious and very dismissive of them. To the point that many religious prefer to work in soup kitchesnk hospice, hospitals, colleges, missions and anything that is not a parish.

When the religious tried to get back to their roots, the laity in those parishes was not supportive at all. They complained and even asked to have them removed, just like that group in Madison, WI that wants the Society of Christ the Priest removed. There is no respect for the charism of a community.

I recall that when the friars said that they would have to change the parish schedule to allow for friars to attend community prayers, community recreation, community retreat, chapters, periods of study and silence, and that the friars would not longer be available to people outside of office hours, because the rest of the day was for community life and chores, people were angry.

When they said that the friars had to go back to equality between ordained and on ordained, which meant that some parishes has non ordained brothers calling the shots, some people had the nerve to ask if these brothers were competent in theology and ministry.

These and other little things that have happened between the laity and religious have made religious superiors hesitant to give in, if a group is too loud. It reminds them of those days during the 1980s to 90s when they had people in their faces. No one wants to have someone in your face.

Then there was the liberal faction with their screaming and hollering, because the religious men were “going backward instead of forward.” That was another headache. Those people could get very ugly too.

Sometimes, these superiors feel that it’s better to keep some sense of control in order to function. You always end up caught between factions, even when you’re just trying to walk the middle of the road. People put up their arms and say, "I don’t want to deal with that unless I absolutely have to do so.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
Wow. We need “protection” because it’s possible we might not have something our own way because maybe, possibly, the Bishop just doesn’t like it?

Guess what? *That’s a perfectly valid reason because he is the Bishop. *
The Bishop are constrained by the laws and doctrines of the Church, just as you and I are. He cannot simply do whatever he wants because he is the Bishop. The underlying principle you use as evidence is incorrect.
After reading this thread, I think the EF should be done away with altogether.
That’s mighty strong lovely contradiction from the principle you stated above. How about wel stick with the Holy Father and say that the EF is a beautiful expression of the Faith that cannot be looked as being dangerous and should be generously offered to the faithful.
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I would like to see the bishops give it a shot. I know that in my diocese the bishop himself celebrated the EF not too long ago. He wanted to show the clergy what it looked like and that it could be done without splitting the parish. But he is also very gentle. He does not demand that his priests do this. If they want to do it, he helps them find a way and if there is no way, he simply says, “Let’s wait.” It’s never a flat “No.”
That’s wonderful. The members of your diocese are blessed to have such a Bishop.
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