Bishop Banning Latin Mass

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Looking through that lens, I can easily see how some traditionalists do not like the St. Faustina and her devotion, as it interferes with the concept that God is merciful towards people such as the aborted children in the world, the modern day Holy Innocents.
I need more sleep. The above should read;

Looking through that lens, I can easily see how some traditionalists do not like the St. Faustina and her devotion, as it interferes with the concept that God isn’t merciful towards people such as the aborted children in the world, the modern day Holy Innocents, and they may enter Heaven.
 
I really need a quote with a link to where he says “it cannot not be looked at as dangerous.”
Certainly. It is from the letter accompanying the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum:

(full text here: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html)
There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.
  • PAX
 
I must take issue with your phraseology here, but allow me to explain why:
Now, you are probably wondering how I can cite the very text you are using to try and show me I am wrong to prove my point. After all, the text very clearly states that such people are only potentially a part of the church, not actually a part of the Church. However, thats actually my whole point. The objector, with whom St. Thomas disagrees, claims that such people are *in no way *a part of the church. St. Thomas corrects them by showing that they are actually potentially a part of the Church,
I am only learning scholasticism, so I cannot claim to be an expert. However, one of the things I keep reading is about the extreme importance (in scholasticism) of the absolute difference between potentiality and actuality. The scholastics warn repeatedly that to confuse the two nullifies a real distinction that positively exists in reality. Something is either one or the other. Therefore, whatever is in potentiality is not and cannot be in actuality, and vice versa.

To borrow the classic example. Take, for example, some marble. Now a sculptor possesses this marble and has his plans drawn and also possesses the skill and all the tools he needs to make it into a statue of Our Lady. The marble, therefore, is potentially a statue of Our Lady, but not actually. This is certainly a better state than if there were no (Catholic) sculptors around to make a statue of Our Lady. However, until the statue is formed by the sculptor, the marble is not and never actually a statue of Our Lady, as common speech and sense realise.
at least while still alive. This is the crux of the matter. It is very easy to downplay potentiality. After all, it isn’t actual. But in the thinking of Aristotle and St, Thomas the difference between non-being and potency is quite breathtaking actually. The pre-socratics spent a long time trying to understand being and non-being, and how change was possible at all. Aristotle is very careful to make the distinction between non-being and potency. This is how he is able to solve the aparant contradiction faced by his predecessors. The whole point is that potency is, albeit only in some qualified way, obviously it is not actual, because that would be a contradiction, but it is not non-existent entirely, therefore it must exist *in some way. *This applies to St. Thomas’ distinction in the 1st objection because St. Thomas is specifically denying that all those who are not actually in the Church, are in no way in the Church. In other words, they are in the Church, in some qualified way.
However, we go too far when we say they “are in the Church, in some qualified way” because at this junction we are saying they are actually in the Church, eliminating the potency or the potentiality. Admittedly - and I agree with you, and as I hope my example above helped illustrate - some are potentially in the Church and will be actually in the Church as, for ex., the predestinated (the elect). These may not even exist yet but, in a sense, they are members of the Church.

Consider also someone’s sincere desire to Confess their (mortal) sins. We know there exists perfect contrition for sins. But let us say on the way to Confession some wicked or careless person causes the sorrowful penitent to die by some crime or accident, whether directly or indirectly. We know that, notwithstanding, the penitent is going to Heaven though, perhaps, he may have to spend some time in Purgatory. Consider that, if the penitent - even in a moment before his death - repented of his repentence, and (may God forbid) cursed God or some such horrible thing, we would suspect that the original grace of contrition for his sins would be lost.

Now, in the instance that the penitent rather held fast, we can therefore conclude that the actuality of his membership in the Church, as a living member of the Church, ceased all potentiality and became perfect actuality at the moment of death or the last moment he possessed his free-will whilst still in the flesh (souls always retain the will, the intellect (or understanding) and the memory, for these powers are proper to it); though, admittedly, perferct memership for Saint Thomas seems to be when a soul possesses the Beatific Vision itself.

The difficulty is that so long as we retain free-will and are in the flesh, then even those in the state of grace are also “potentially” not members of the Church and, therefore, it works (as it were) both ways. However, no one has ever taught that those **not **predestinated, but yet members of the Church Militant, are not actually members of the Church Militant. That is, even if a man who’s living a saintly life but, for some bizzare reason, gets infatuated with the world (for example) and sells his soul to the devil for riches (again, for example) - though God knew He would do this - nonetheless, his actual membership of the Church was real while he was in the state of grace, but he always had the potentialy to be a non-member and, again, since even in non-membership he has free-will, then he is also potentially a member of the Church! So a man is potentially not a member but also potentially a member of the Church throughout his whole life here on earth; therefore, what we become concerned with is actuality.

So our desire to include as many souls as possible in the Church, while pious, also exposes as many actual members of the Church to non-membership. Do you see the paradox?

Therefore, you can say that all men, whilst living, have some potentiality that in some way connects them to membership in the Church; however, the more this is exagerated, then all those men actually in the Church (Militant) becomes exagerated into a potential non-membership.
 
But we aren’t under the teaching of a lot of Catechisms, and this Catechism is the one our Church officially provides us.

Those are not our Lord’s words. From the NAB, a translation made by the Church for the use of Americans in Liturgy:

Here is the footnote:

You (and a lot of Protestants) interpret that as:

No, it doesn’t. It means that the Kingdom of God is among us, as Jesus has said, and unless you are enlightened by the Holy Spirit, you will not understand what that is, you will not see it. Let he who has ears to hear understand.

Also not what Jesus said:

Doesn’t say “again.”

You find that. I find that Jesus is telling us that the way to the Kingdom is through life in earth (being born of water: “what is flesh is flesh”) and being enlivened here, “born,” of the Holy Spirit, “what is born of Spirit is spirit.”

I’m not going to counter every one of your atheist arguments, because I already said what I had to say about it and nothing you’ve said changes anything I believe, but I will answer this question:

This p happens because the God atheists don’t believe in, doesn’t exist. It isn’t a word, g-o-d they reject, it is the person they have been presented with. The one who would condemn babies to eternal hopelessness. (I also do not believe in that god.)

When an atheist seeks to act in love and charity, that person is doing what they can to follow the will of God. The true God. That they do not know this, doesn’t alter the fact they are doing it. In fact, considering their distance from the help of Church and the Sacraments, they are doing it rather heroically, IMO.

And yet, I am sure that it does. So, we disagree.
Ummm. This NAB, is it also the same NAB that enlightens us that the prophet Isaiah did not predict a Virgin birth?
 
This thread has become really disappointing. It seems to be an argument between a Feeneyite view on salvation and a Universalist view on salvation, both of which have been condemned by Holy Mother Church, and all the learned, long-time posters have to say is “Let’s worry about our own salvation.”

How about somebody stating what the Church really teaches, so innumerable third-parties aren’t led into error? If I find 20 minutes to spare later, I’ll do my best but I don’t have time now.
 
This thread has become really disappointing. It seems to be an argument between a Feeneyite view on salvation
I stopped reading right there, because as a matter of fact a Feenneyite view on salvation denies the Baptism of Desire (and possibly also the Baptism of Blood) as being efficacious toward salvation or even existing. That’s the Feeneyite error. However, I haven’t seen a single poster here deny the Baptism of Desire. The Church has always taught that Baptism is necessary for salvation; the Feeneyites, however, reduce(d) this to being only the actual Sacrament of Baptism (of water) and thus disregard what (for example) the Paslmist said,

[19] A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Among other like sayings found in Holy Writ.

Now that you know, please do not misuse the term again because you misrepresent people’s positions: i.e., making it appear outright heretical.

Thank you.
 
I stopped reading right there, because as a matter of fact a Feenneyite view on salvation denies the Baptism of Desire… please do not misuse the term again because you misrepresent people’s positions: i.e., making it appear outright heretical.
That’s exactly what it looked like. I’m glad I was wrong.
 
I must take issue with your phraseology here, but allow me to explain why:
(Snip)
I’m sorry that my phraseology was confusing. When I said it is actually potential, I coul just as well have said is really potential, or even is potential. I was using the word actual loosely fo emphasis. I assure you I am in no way conflating actuality with potentiality. Rather I am pointing out the importance of not conflating potentiality with non existence.

Let me restate what I am saying.
Objector 1 comes along and says " Christ is not their head because they are not in the Church"

To which St. Thomas replies : you are wrong, Chist is their head for they are in the church potentially. This means that they are inthe church in some way even though they are not *actually/] in the church.

He does not place the emphasis there, but it is still what he is saying. I am adding the emphasis so that you can recognize that that is what St. Thomas is doing.

By refusing to admit this and claiming such a statement is automatically heretical because of the phrasing you are conflating potentiality with non-existence. Which would also destroy the philosophy of St. Thomas.
However, we go too far when we say they “are in the Church, in some qualified way” because at this junction we are saying they are actually in the Church, eliminating the potency or the potentiality.
(Snip)
See, here is where I disagree with you. When you say that something “is in a qualified way” you are not saying they exist actually but this actual existence is qualified, you are showig that what you mean by is isn’t hat they actually exist. It is confusing to talk about because of the limitations of our language, but it is a legitimate meaning for that combination of words. Whether you like it or not does not change this.

I do not doubt that there are many things whih at first glance seem to be paradoxes. We are talking about act and potency, two extremely difficult yet vitally important philosophical concepts. However, my point is quite simple. If you make the claim that said people are not in any way in the church, you make the claim of the first objection whih St. Thomas disagrees with. I am more than willing to discuss apparent paradoxes, but first I want to make sure that you undrstand he force of my point.

Therefore, you can say that all men, whilst living, have some potentiality that in some way connects them to membership in the Church; however, the more this is exagerated, then all those men actually in the Church (Militant) becomes exagerated into a potential non-membership.*
 
Focusing entirely on hell and ignoring heaven leads to dispair and loss of hope.

-Tim-
I don’t think is a wide problem in the Roman Catholic Church today. The possibility of Hell isn’t mentioned. Christ has some hard sayings. These are not emphasised. People who aren’t actually murderers or brigands are guaranteed Heaven; that seems to be the line.
 
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