Bishop blasts "spirit of Vatican II"

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Bishop R. Walker Nickless of Sioux City denounces false interpretations of the Second Vatican Council and calls upon Catholics to “reclaim and strengthen our understanding of the deposit of faith.”
The question arises: Why has the implementation of the Council, in large parts of the Church, thus far been so difficult? Well, it all depends on the correct interpretation of the Council or - as we would say today - on its proper hermeneutics, the correct key to its interpretation and application. The problems in its implementation arose from the fact that two contrary hermeneutics came face to face and quarreled with each other. One caused confusion, the other, silently but more and more visibly, bore and is bearing fruit.
On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call “a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture,” it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology. On the other, there is the “hermeneutic of reform,” of renewal in the continuity of the one subject – Church – which the Lord has given to us. She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God.
The hermeneutic of discontinuity risks ending in a split between the pre-conciliar Church and the post-conciliar Church. It asserts that the texts of the Council as such do not yet express the true spirit of the Council …
It is crucial that we all grasp that the hermeneutic or interpretation of discontinuity or rupture, which many think is the settled and even official position, is not the true meaning of the Council. This interpretation sees the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Church almost as two different churches. It sees the Second Vatican Council as a radical break with the past. There can be no split, however, between the Church and her faith before and after the Council. We must stop speaking of the “Pre-Vatican II” and “Post-Vatican II” Church, and stop seeing various characteristics of the Church as “pre” and “post” Vatican II. Instead, we must evaluate them according to their intrinsic value and pastoral effectiveness in this day and age.
Recommended Reading:
Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church
Commentary on Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church
 
On the flip side a substitute older priest at my parish gave a homily fully praising Vatican 2 and called it as significant an anniversary as any holiday out there. He praised all its accomplishments and said that over 2000 bishops came in agreement with the pope and attributed it to the Holy Spirit at work and that it made a bridge from the clergy to ordinary people. It was the first time a priest I heard talk of V2. He made some very good points too. He wasn’t a young priest either. He is retired and was sitting in for our parish priest.
 
On the flip side a substitute older priest at my parish gave a homily fully praising Vatican 2 and called it as significant an anniversary as any holiday out there. He praised all its accomplishments and said that over 2000 bishops came in agreement with the pope and attributed it to the Holy Spirit at work and that it made a bridge from the clergy to ordinary people. It was the first time a priest I heard talk of V2. He made some very good points too. He wasn’t a young priest either. He is retired and was sitting in for our parish priest.
I don’t think the priest you mention and the Bishop quoted in the OP are on opposite sides. The Bishop is saying we need to understand there are two interpretations of the documents arising from VII. He says we should reject the interpretation that there is a pre- and post VII Church, despite the popular and media acceptance of that paradigm.

The the first part of the excerpt quoted in the OP is actually a quote from Pope Benedict in 2005.

The Bishop goes on to write:
Therefore, we must heed the Holy Father’s point that one interpretation, the “hermeneutic of reform,” is valid, and has borne and is bearing fruit. This hermeneutic of reform, as described above, takes seriously and keeps together the two poles of identity (the ancient deposit of faith and life) and engagement with the world (teaching it more efficaciously).
Lastly, the Holy Father, going into greater detail later in the address, explains that the “spirit of Vatican II” must be found only in the letter of the documents themselves. The so-called “spirit” of the Council has no authoritative interpretation. It is a ghost or demon that must be exorcised if we are to proceed with the Lord’s work.
I think it’s important to point out the Bishop doesn’t reject VII or even the notion that we should heed (and therefore embrace) the reforms implemented by the Council. He advises us to ensure any interpretations should be grounded in the documents of the Council and not any so-called “spirit” that arises from some other source.
 
The documents of V2 have been grossly misinterpreted and finally Church leaders are attempting to fix the damage.
 
The documents of V2 have been grossly misinterpreted and finally Church leaders are attempting to fix the damage.
I agree that this is the issue; however, I do think it’s fair to ask…why have these documents been misinterpreted so badly? Was there something about them that caused so much confusion? Have we ever had Church documents cause so much confusion?

And this is coming from a convert to the faith post V2 and happen to love the New Mass. As a matter of fact, I just attended my first Latin Mass and did not care for it at all. I am going to try another one because it seems as if this one may not have been a good example.
 
I agree that this is the issue; however, I do think it’s fair to ask…why have these documents been misinterpreted so badly? Was there something about them that caused so much confusion? Have we ever had Church documents cause so much confusion?

And this is coming from a convert to the faith post V2 and happen to love the New Mass. As a matter of fact, I just attended my first Latin Mass and did not care for it at all. I am going to try another one because it seems as if this one may not have been a good example.
If you want, you can read the books by Ricardo de la Cierva, these books are about the Church History, infiltrations, and the time of the Vatican Conucil II, when some Priest were more interested in political ideologies and not in the Doctrine

God Bless You !!!
:):)🙂
 
We just love Bishop Nickless! We feel very blessed!

I think it was Fr. Groshel that said he wanted to hunt down the spirit of VII and kill it! I couldn’t have agreed more!
 
I agree that this is the issue; however, I do think it’s fair to ask…why have these documents been misinterpreted so badly? Was there something about them that caused so much confusion? Have we ever had Church documents cause so much confusion?
One needs to understand what the status of the Church was at the time Vatican 2 occured; and one needs to further understand what the status of the world was (and in particular, since most of us herein live in the United States, that area) in order to understand what happened.

We had had an issue in Theology (and not exclusive to the Church) called Modernism. I intensely dislike any such phrase, as it is one of those which are difficult at best to define (and given that theologians and philosophers cannot define it with any fairly specific detail, lay people are at an even greater disadvantage). However, for lack of any better way of defining things, we proceed: Modernism, at least in part, denied that there was unltimate Truth, from which through revelation the Church had defined doctrines and dogma. In short, Modernists held (in part) that doctrines and dogmas were not lasting, permanent truths, but were malliable and changeable.

Priests were to take an oath against Modernism (which by the way was something like 200 years old). However, for whatever oath they may have taken, it was alive and well in some if not many institutions of higher education, incvluding some seminaries.

Coupled with this, Vatican 2 occured at a time of tremendous upheaval in the US. We were in an interminable war in Souteast Asia; we had recently seen the introduction of a new form of birth control (starting from research at least in the 1940’s and continuing into the 1950’s); we had a population that was first generation post World War 2 that had access far, far greater to post-high school education than their parents did (and all that is attendant with); we saw major changes in society due to emigration of people from local enclaves (Polish, Italian, etc., etc.) relocating because of jobs and the subsequent breakdown of the extended family to the nuclear family and its subsequent breakdown due to divorce (no fault, a new idea); we saw during WW2 the massive influx of women into the workforce during WW2 and the subsequent change after it with women continuing to take jobs out of the home; and the list goes on and on. Sexual behavior had changed, with the significant weakening of attitudes towards brith control; and the Pill only exacebted that change. The net result was a tremendous weakening of authority across the board - familial, political, social and religious.

So out come some documents from the Vatican, saying that we need to take a new look at sacraments, the Church, the Church as it relates to other faiths, etc.

AAnd right on top of that, we had a release of one of the most prophetic documents the Church has produced - Humanae Vitae. A majority report from the commission was leaked before Paul 6 wrote; and when he wrote HV, the backlash was immediate and nuclear. The reaction was from theologians, priests, bishops and the laity, and was so fast and in such stunning ferocity that Paul 6 pretty much folded up and quit writing.

In short, I do not think you can find another such papal document previous to this that received such strong and immeditate rejection. And I would submit this act of rejection of Papal authority did more to give credence to those priests and theologians to go off on their own tangents than did anything in the Vatican 2 documents themselves.

Bishops came back from Rome, and all too often had no plan as to how they would bring these documents to the faithful; leadership was more than sorely lacking.

Subsequent to that we saw the opening up to a far greater degree than before of graduate schools to laity to become theologians; and whatever control the Church might have had before (and that truly is questionable - see the issue of the oath, above) pretty much went up in smoke.

Next came the issue of revising catechesis; and what we ended up was a wholesale tossing of the Baltimore Catechism; but instead of replacing it with something that would teach the Faith and assist in growing faith in the individual, we ended up with a “Jesus is my buddy” watered down, devoid of any understanding of sacraments or doctrine, cut out butterflies and color them excuse for catechesis.

Again, a massive failure on the part of bishops to lead.

The issue, however, is that not all have mis-interpreted the documents. John Paul 2 said repeatedly that the documents of Vatican 2 1) have to be interpreted in the light of 2000 years of Tradition, and 2) there is a lot more work still to be done in order to implement the documents. And the whole Church has not wandered down the wrong path; however, a large portion of the last two generations in the pews has had little effective catechesis, and not a few have had the ideas from Modernist inspired priests and theologians fed to them.

On the other hand, many Catholics have bought and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and are doing their best to follow the Magisterium. Their best does not include much in the way of following the Church re: ABC, but birth control was not an issue of the documents anyway.
 
Bishop R. Walker Nickless of Sioux City denounces false interpretations of the Second Vatican Council and calls upon Catholics to “reclaim and strengthen our understanding of the deposit of faith.”
At last. A bishop who speaks up. There are two interpretations of V II, those who actually read the documents (which are quite orthodox), and those who somehow magically tune in to the “spirit” of V II.

One would think that the younger priests would be “spirit” folk and the old fellows orthodox. In this diocese, it is the other way round. Our younger priests are solidly orthodox, while the older priests border on heresy (not all of them, just the teaching and influential ones).
 
One would think that the younger priests would be “spirit” folk and the old fellows orthodox. In this diocese, it is the other way round. Our younger priests are solidly orthodox, while the older priests border on heresy (not all of them, just the teaching and influential ones).
Actually, that is the trend I observe in many parishes. As otjm eloquently described, today’s older generation were the young members of the Age of Aquarius. Thankfully, dusk is setting on it.
 
Actually, that is the trend I observe in many parishes. As otjm eloquently described, today’s older generation were the young members of the Age of Aquarius. Thankfully, dusk is setting on it.
Same here in s.e. Michigan! Actually I’m of the same age of most of these people…how did I miss the Age of Aquarius? Too busy working for a living I guess!
 
AAnd right on top of that, we had a release of one of the most prophetic documents the Church has produced - Humanae Vitae. A majority report from the commission was leaked before Paul 6 wrote; and when he wrote HV, the backlash was immediate and nuclear. The reaction was from theologians, priests, bishops and the laity, and was so fast and in such stunning ferocity that Paul 6 pretty much folded up and quit writing.
Paul VI had no one to blame but himself for these “leaks.” His Progressio Populorum gave everyone a very clear message about the direction people needed to take in order to alleviate poverty in the world. On top of that he started relaxing rules on fasting and abstinence and Latin. He eliminated the Forbidden Books lists. The priests ran away with all this. The gathering of theologians to permit ABC was looked on as a formality. Yes, HV shocked the world. But the damage was done.
 
The documents of V2 have been grossly misinterpreted and finally Church leaders are attempting to fix the damage.
The documents have been misinterpreted mainly by those who never read them. I have read them and they mostly re-affirm the teachings of all the earlier councils and apply those teachings to our times in clear modern language. It also restores to prominence some of the most ancient Catholic practices, such as the permanent diaconate.

There is nothing from Vatican II to justify any of the hippie nonsense done in its name.
 
On the other hand, many Catholics have bought and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and are doing their best to follow the Magisterium.
Those who have read the CCC may be surprised to find that they have already read much of the 16 basic VII documents. Most of the CCC is quotation or paraphrase from VII and prior conciliar documents.
Their best does not include much in the way of following the Church re: ABC, but birth control was not an issue of the documents anyway.
Vatican II dealt with birth control clearly enough in “The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World”, for example in paragraph 51:
In questions of birth regulation the daughters and sons of the church, faithful to these principles, are forbidden to use methods disapproved of by the teaching authority of the church in its interpretation of the divine law.
 
Vatican II dealt with birth control clearly enough in “The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World”, for example in paragraph 51:
I am no historian, but it is my recollection that HV came out after the documents of Vatican 2. In fact, if I recall correctly, it was about 2 and one half years later. Vatican 2 closed (and all documents were signed) by December 8, 1965; HV was promulgated on July 25, 1968.

At the time there was an on-going and somewhat public dispute about the Pill; at the time that Vatican 2 was closed there were a number of theologians who said that the Pill was different enough from other methods of contraception that it would be permissible. It was not widely known, if at all, that it could cause abortions; and it was felt that because it acted differently - it regulated and/or changed the woman’s cycle - that because it acted differently and presumably simply prevented her from ovulating, that it would be deemed acceptible.

The comment in the document was seen as speaking to previous methods of contraception - spermicide, cervical cap, condom, etc. all of which were seen as either barriers to the sperm uniting with the egg, or killing the sperm. This (as far as known) simply prevented the egg from being released. It helps to remember that what we knew about the Pill in 1965 was nowhere all that we know today, 44 years later. It is correct that the document said that contraception was forbidden; but the Church had a long history of speaking out on the various forms available previous to the Pill; until HV was released, it had not officially taken a position.

It is easy to presume bad faith, or project bad faith on the theologians who were considering the issue, and in particular those who said that the Pill was permissible; but history does not support that assumption or projection upon all, or even necessarily most theologians who so held. It was an unresolved question until HV came out.

It also helps to remember that we were in the throes of the fears generated by the studies which projected the population explosion, which was presumed to grow geometrically, and the food shortage, which presumed that production could only grow arithmetically. People of very good faith saw problems we have subsequently found to not be true.
 
The modern Christian world now has a birth rate below sustainable levels while our old arch nemesis Islam is twice ours and on the verge of taking over many countries. Looks like the Vatican and Pope Paul’s HV were correct in their teaching. The other threat isn’t over-population and food shortage, but not having enough tax payers in the work force to keep pension plans and health care funded.
 
In questions of birth regulation the daughters and sons of the church, faithful to these principles, are forbidden to use methods disapproved of by the teaching authority of the church in its interpretation of the divine law.
Prior to Vatican II, it was permitted to practice birth control via the “rhythm” method, though even then that was a controversial issue amongst Catholics. The missionary position was to be had also. There were more calls to relax this requirement than before.
 
=JohnPaul64;5835847]On the flip side a substitute older priest at my parish gave a homily fully praising Vatican 2 and called it as significant an anniversary as any holiday out there. He praised all its accomplishments and said that over 2000 bishops came in agreement with the pope and attributed it to the Holy Spirit at work and that it made a bridge from the clergy to ordinary people. It was the first time a priest I heard talk of V2. He made some very good points too. He wasn’t a young priest either. He is retired and was sitting in for our parish priest.
Having been Blessed with 12 years of Catholic Education when it was still something to “brag” about, I found it quite difficult to be critical of Bishops and Priest which I was taught to believe were always right, always with the Pope and always with the Church.

Certaily many are, clearly many are not!

If we take the advice and teaching of Jesus Himself, “By there fruits you shall KNOW them.” Apply it to reviewing the obvious and documented effects of Vatican II, we find the following.

According to the PEW Report of 2008 in comparing 1970 and 2007 Chruch statistics.

1970 about 73% of professed Catholics were “practicing there faith”
2007 that number fell to 25% and in 2008 to 23%

1970 nearly 70% of Catholics went to Confession at least Once a year [Easter Duty]
2007 only 10%

In 2008 The second largest Christian denomination was “fallen away Catholics”

Catholics in the know are aware of Pope John Paul’s repeated efforts to effect sane, humble change, and this group is also aware that Pope Benedict too has expressed GRAVE concern for loss of souls. On October 16th., he iniated a review of the V II understanding, which is still pending.

His Holiness has overidden the Bishops and gace Papal authority for the EF Mass because so many Bishops refused to do so. Further, when one receives Holy Communion from the Pope, it must be Kneeling and on the tongue. This is a teaching, and many are unaware that this manner remains the NORM in the Universal Catholic Church.

I am not of the opinion that nothing good came out of Vatican II, because so many of our problems and the loss of souls stem not from Vativan II, but what a large group of Bishops and priest wanted it to say and accomplish, and forced upon there largely gullible flocks.

I would have enjoyed speaking to this priest after Mass.

Dear God stregthen our Pope and Magisterium to have the Wisdom and Courage to do what is necessary for the salvation of souls!
 
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