Bishop Decree on the Our Father

[zab]

It’s the other way around. Another poster was asking how the same people could support a bishop who explains that adding ritual to the Our Father is not legitimate, while at the same time not support a bishop who forbids kneeling while receiving.

If you go back and look at the post to which I replied, that will clear things up.

Here’s the question to which I was replying

Does it make more sense now?

I think you would have needed to follow the other thread to have understood the question. There was nothing said about the bishop refusing Communion to someone who knelt.

 

[FrDavid96]

I think you would have needed to follow the other thread to have understood the question. There was nothing said about the bishop refusing Communion to someone who knelt.

Once again, I will quote the question from this thread that I was answering.

A question that I really want an aswer too is how come we see so much support for doing what the Bishop wants in this case, but when asked about kneeling for communion, where the USCCB proscribes that “standing” is the norm for reception in the US, we have all these people who say the Bishops is wrong?!

I cannot see why you insist on making an issue out of this. Someone asked a question. I answered the question. Why do you take issue with that?

 

[zab]

Once again, I will quote the question from this thread that I was answering.

I cannot see why you insist on making an issue out of this. Someone asked a question. I answered the question. Why do you take issue with that?

You were answering a question that she posed to a particular member who on one thread said that he would support the Holy Father on this subject and not the USCCB
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8640771&postcount=90

and on this thread said that we “have an obligation to follow our bishops on these instructions.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8640799&postcount=13

I am just trying to clarify something not make an issue.

 

[FrDavid96]

You were answering a question that she posed to a particular member who on one thread said that he would support the Holy Father on this subject and not the USCCB
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8640771&postcount=90

and on this thread said that we “have an obligation to follow our bishops on these instructions.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8640799&postcount=13

No. I was answering the post that I quoted (just as I keep saying); the one on this thread.
I will thank you not to put words into my mouth.

Why, oh why, are you making such an issue of this? Is it so important for you to distract us from the topic at hand?

Here it is yet again, in its entirety:

A question that I really want an aswer too is how come we see so much support for doing what the Bishop wants in this case, but when asked about kneeling for communion, where the USCCB proscribes that “standing” is the norm for reception in the US, we have all these people who say the Bishops is wrong?!

The GIRM, as my Canon Lawyer boss likes to remind me, is a GENERAL, Instuction of the Roman Missal, not a way to micro-manage priests & laity.
It is well within this ordinaries power to do just this, but ultimately this is HIS OPINION ONLY!!

 

[zab]

No. I was answering the post that I quoted (just as I keep saying); the one on this thread.
I will thank you not to put words into my mouth.

Why, oh why, are you making such an issue of this? Is it so important for you to distract us from the topic at hand?

Here it is yet again, in its entirety:

Nevermind. I see you are over reacting.

 

[FrDavid96]

A question that I really want an aswer too is how come we see so much support for doing what the Bishop wants in this case, but when asked about kneeling for communion, where the USCCB proscribes that “standing” is the norm for reception in the US, we have all these people who say the Bishops is wrong?!

The GIRM, as my Canon Lawyer boss likes to remind me, is a GENERAL, Instuction of the Roman Missal, not a way to micro-manage priests & laity.
It is well within this ordinaries power to do just this, but ultimately this is HIS OPINION ONLY!!

I wanted to address just that question. Since we are being distracted, here’s the answer again.

It’s a fair question, and one that deserves an answer.

The answer is found in the Vatican II document Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (SC) which I quoted in an earlier post.
22. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
The bishop does not have authority to change anything in the Mass however he pleases. His role is to interpret the liturgical norms approved by the Holy See. There are times when those norms specifically say that the matter is to be determined by the bishop–sometimes but not always.

To answer your question more directly, the reason why people support the bishop in this case, but those same people do not support the bishop when it comes to prohibiting kneeling while receiving Communion is because Rome has not given the bishop the authority to forbid reception of Communion kneeling. In fact, Rome specifically said that such a prohibition could not be made. So bishops who did not allow kneeling were acting against Rome. That’s the difference.

When a bishop interprets the rubrics of the Mass, yes we must obey the bishop; at the same time, the bishop himself is bound to interpret, not change the rubrics.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Thank you Fr. David for your reply.

I see, now, where the wording of my question may be causing some confusion here.

In my original question (post # 14) using the “standing to receive” was not actually what I was meant to say or was thinking.
It was a case of I knew what I meant, but my fingers were not on the same page, so to speak!

Sorry for the confusion that it has caused.

What I was thinking of, was the thread about standing from after the Our Father" until everyone has received Communion.
There is a thread that goes on for 5 pages on just this issue.

So, so these are the 2 things I am comparing. If you ask the question in light of this new understanding, I think JM3 said it best in post # 29-

“People think that how they feel is more important than obedience to the Bishop or that they are being ‘traditional’…”

 

[LilHomemaker]

I wasnt asking what gives him the authority I was asking where did the custom come from. Hold hands that is.

As an ex-protestant we did it all the time. Not sure but probably started there.

Sue

 

[TheMc]

All I can say is: It’s about time. I hope many more bishops follow suit.

 

[Bendix]

Yesterday our local news did a report on our bishops decree on the Our Father.

"only the priest id given the instruction to ‘extend’ his hands. Neither deacon nor the lay faithful ate instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.

People are having a fit about this. Where did this costume even come from? I remember it started to pop up around 2000.

I think its great that our Bishop is finely putting is foot down on issues like this when it comes to the Mass.

What do you think?

I honestly wonder about those who become obsessed about about others using the orans and holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. There is something very wrong about such an obsession.

 

[zab]

I don’t know if any of our bishops have ever talked about this (other than perhaps to the priests). Our former pastor had told us that we should not be using the posture of the priest at the Our Father. He also said that we should not be holding hands with everyone but he kind of let it go for within families with the small children. Most people at the time listened to the pastor and ceased the practice, except for a few. The few did not reach out to others, but just stood with their hands held out. But as time goes on and people come and go, we are seeing more and more who stand in the orans position at the Our Father. Maybe it is time for another reminder.

 

[pnewton]

I honestly wonder about those who become obsessed about about others using the orans and holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. There is something very wrong about such an obsession.

I believe the reason is that many are uncomfortable with the idea of holding hands and, since it is not there is not posture stated for the Our Father, they push for a strict interpretation to match their preference. I understand. We all tend to cheer and bolster when the Church does something we like and grumble and drag our feet when something happens we really do not like. I think this is one of the biggest non-issues-who-cares ther ever was, but then I am apathetic on the whole thing.

 

[Rina_Badal]

Peace be with you.
I expressed my opinion on this in another thread, ‘Human Chain at Our Father’. Please allow me to copy & paste it here as well.
“Concerning the topic at hand, I was surprised, to be honest, to hear that a number of Catholics find holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer highly inappropriate at mass.
Where I come from the faithful, or the vast majority for sure, welcome holding hands especially in what we call ‘goddas kabiir’ (big mass) usually when there is a feast. You see hands eagerly extended, faces lit with friendly expressions before turning to focus on the Lord’s Prayer, often sung. You can easily realise then that this physical gesture of unity of children of one Father is meaningful to us and thus appreciated. NEVER heard a complaint about it, and I’m a cradle Catholic and have been active in the church working among young and adult Catholics for years.
I couldn’t remember any teaching or canon of the Catholic Church prohibiting holding hands. So I decided to do some searching and came out with some good articles. Check out these two on www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur10.htm and www.catholicmatters.com/holdhand.htm
So there are no specific directives concerning faithful posture during the Lord’s Prayer. It is a matter of opinion then. Some find it inappropriate, distracting, meaningless, silly or just uncomfortable, others think it’s ok or even ‘love it’ like me and other Catholics in my country (Sudan) – maybe there is a cultural aspect to it.
As for the main celebrant and other priests, I read what the rubrics say, but does ‘extends his hand’ means they must/should not extend and join hands? I hope things are clear for them.
As a Catholic, where there IS a teaching of the Church then ‘my opinion’ = what the Catholic Church teaches. For I have absolute faith and trust in the One Holy Universal Church of God.”
Peace,
Rina

 

[HelenRose]

I have an idea that priests are doing their best at
“picking their fights”

In time this practice will stop.
There are far greater problems facing the Church.

 

[MarkThompson]

Peace be with you.
I expressed my opinion on this in another thread, ‘Human Chain at Our Father’. Please allow me to copy & paste it here as well.
“Concerning the topic at hand, I was surprised, to be honest, to hear that a number of Catholics find holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer highly inappropriate at mass.
Where I come from the faithful, or the vast majority for sure, welcome holding hands especially in what we call ‘goddas kabiir’ (big mass) usually when there is a feast. You see hands eagerly extended, faces lit with friendly expressions before turning to focus on the Lord’s Prayer, often sung. You can easily realise then that this physical gesture of unity of children of one Father is meaningful to us and thus appreciated. NEVER heard a complaint about it, and I’m a cradle Catholic and have been active in the church working among young and adult Catholics for years.
I couldn’t remember any teaching or canon of the Catholic Church prohibiting holding hands. So I decided to do some searching and came out with some good articles. Check out these two on www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur10.htm and www.catholicmatters.com/holdhand.htm
So there are no specific directives concerning faithful posture during the Lord’s Prayer. It is a matter of opinion then. Some find it inappropriate, distracting, meaningless, silly or just uncomfortable, others think it’s ok or even ‘love it’ like me and other Catholics in my country (Sudan) – maybe there is a cultural aspect to it.
As for the main celebrant and other priests, I read what the rubrics say, but does ‘extends his hand’ means they must/should not extend and join hands? I hope things are clear for them.
As a Catholic, where there IS a teaching of the Church then ‘my opinion’ = what the Catholic Church teaches. For I have absolute faith and trust in the One Holy Universal Church of God.”
Peace,
Rina

Rina, thanks for giving us your perspective from the Sudan. It is great to hear of the experiences of Catholics in developing countries, especially in Africa.