Bishop Fellay: SSPX Seeks Return to the Past

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Even Bishop was stunned by Williamson. That’s why he silenced him. I can’t speak for the TV station. Maybe they had an agenda; but Bishop Williamson was way out of line. He spoke out foolishly on a historical even that is accepted by most of the world’s historical scholars and for which there are eye-witnesses still alive.

Considering how hard Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have worked to reopen dialogue and cooperation between Jews and Catholics, such statements coming from a Catholic bishop are obviously going to cause a negative reaction and threaten to sabottage the workd of the two popes. One can raise the question, “What was Williamson thinking about? Did it ever occur to him that he could be sabottaging the work of the popes? Was it intentional or just lack of good judgment?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 

Here’s a link to a radio interview with John Salza. …
relevantradio.streamguys.us/Asx%20Files/SW%20Archive/SW20090226.asx
Here’s another interview with John Salza discussing the SSPX. …voiceofcatholicradio.com/walk,090419,j_salza,_re_sspx,_j_bagnoli_final,34_min.mp3
Here is an interesting clip concerning the SSPX, the mass, and the Popes.
voiceofcatholicradio.com/walk,090419,j_salza,_re_sspx,_j_bagnoli_final,34_min.mp3
One, two, three, four, I declare a clip war.

I only mention this as a reminder that not everyone has access to all these clips that on occasion proliferate on these threads. Just an FYI.
 
I myself accept Vatican II and the post conciliar magisterium. But I would like to address a question to supporters of the SSPX. Assuming for the sake of argument, that the SSPX is right about errors in Vatican II and that popes since Vatican II also teach error, how exactly does one save the situation? Doesn’t this mean that since Vatican II and these popes erred, then we have to admit the fact that an ecumenical council and successive popes have taught error? How can the integrity of the Magisterium survive such an admission??
It seems to me that the thinking of the SSPX ultimately has to arrive at a sede vacantist position (which they seem to reject). Otherwise, we would be saying the Magisterium erred.

C.
 
Exactly what did Williamson say that caused turmoil?

Here is an interesting clip concerning the SSPX, the mass, and the Popes.
voiceofcatholicradio.com/walk,090419,j_salza,_re_sspx,_j_bagnoli_final,34_min.mp3
What he did was acted imprudently. He knows how hard the Church is working on building Catholic-Jewish relationship. He knows that the number of Jews and others who died on the Shoah has already been accepted by most credible scholars. He knew there are eye-witnesses still alive who saw what happened in the Shoah. He knew how sensitive his boss (the Holy Father) is to this topic. He could have kept his opinion to himself and not caused so much grief for the Holy Father.

This makes it look imprudent or callous on his part. Even Bishop Fellay told him to be silent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I myself accept Vatican II and the post conciliar magisterium. But I would like to address a question to supporters of the SSPX. Assuming for the sake of argument, that the SSPX is right about errors in Vatican II and that popes since Vatican II also teach error, how exactly does one save the situation? Doesn’t this mean that since Vatican II and these popes erred, then we have to admit the fact that an ecumenical council and successive popes have taught error? How can the integrity of the Magisterium survive such an admission??
It seems to me that the thinking of the SSPX ultimately has to arrive at a sede vacantist position (which they seem to reject). Otherwise, we would be saying the Magisterium erred.

C.
Another good point that has to be raised is are the SSPX saying the same thing that the Protestant movement said, “The Catholic Church failed and we’re saving it.”

I don’t think that’s what the leadership of the SSPX wants to say; but that’s how the lay supporters of the SSPX make them sound. I was listening to Fr. Corapi on this issue. He was very interesting. He was talking about solving some of these conflicts, not just the SSPX, but other areas of reconciliation. He said, “The greatest problem is the laity. Too often, lay people don’t understand words the way that the Church writes them, means them or understands them.” Then he went on to say that he agree with Fr. Wade M. The laity needs to pick up some philosophy and theology books. I guess Fr. Wade had made that comment before him. I don’t know.

But there is a great deal of truth here. I have read what people on CAF claim that the SSPX is saying and then proceeded to read what they are saying and it’s not the same thing. It’s the same words, but not the same meaning. The SSPX is speaking what I like to call “Vaticanese” and the average person is trying to read these words in American English. We have to be careful with that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe the problem can’t really be blamed on SSPX laity alone. In 2007 for example Fellay gave an interview in which he stated the documents of Vatican II themselves had to be corrected. If so, it seems he is asserting the Council itself is in error. Quite similar to Lefebvre’s oft repeated assertion “it begins in heresy and ends in heresy”.

See: catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10831

C.
 
I believe the problem can’t really be blamed on SSPX laity alone. In 2007 for example Fellay gave an interview in which he stated the documents of Vatican II themselves had to be corrected.
Interesting. Did he mention anyother Church councils he believed to be in error?
 
I believe the problem can’t really be blamed on SSPX laity alone. In 2007 for example Fellay gave an interview in which he stated the documents of Vatican II themselves had to be corrected. If so, it seems he is asserting the Council itself is in error. Quite similar to Lefebvre’s oft repeated assertion “it begins in heresy and ends in heresy”.

See: catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10831

C.
In the statement that Bishop Fellay makes here, he’s really saying what he believes that the Pope should do with certain aspects of tthe Council documents. That being said, all of us are used to seeing those among the lower ranks or any organization say that the upper ranks must do this or should do that. This is common in the corporate world, politicis and the Church. The point that applies to the laity is that the laity should know that this is common rhetoric in any kind of internal dispute between the members of any organization. And the laity should be the first to know, from their experience living in the world of secular negotiations, to remember that in the end, it’s the highest ranking authority whe decides what can be done and what cannot be done. For the laity to pick up on what Bishop Fellay is saying it and embrace it as a absolute only betrays the laity’s lack of knowledge of how the Catholic Church’s infrastructure works. The Church will cooperate with you when you have a pont of law. But it will not cooperate with you when you call its authority or its understanding into question. That runs the risk of coming too close to Protestantism. Again, I don’t believe that is where the SSPX wants to go to either.

My suggestion is to read it this way. Bishop Fellay would like to see some parts of the documents rewritten. Rome may cooperate, if Rome believes that they need to be rewritten. If Rome disagrees, then Bishop Fellay is out of options and the laity has to proceed with Rome, because Rome outranks Bishop Fellay and his wishes. Bishop Fellay may also accept the authority of Rome. We only know what he is saying, not what he is thinking.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There is no question that the SSPX hold the Council to be in error. That is plain on their website where they catalogue its supposed errors. See: sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q6_vaticanII.htm

Their point is that the Council did not hold itself to be infalllible, but since it issued two dogmatic constitutions that’s a conclusion that’s hard to avoid. And that brings me back to my earlier point, assuming the Lefebvrites are correct,(for the sake of argument) then an ecumenical council is in error as is the post Vatican II magisterium of the popes. And how could that mess possibly be sorted out and preserve a sense of respect for the Magisterium’s integrity. I would like to see how the SSPX wants to handle such a situation. This needs a response from supporters of the SSPX.

C.
 
There is no question that the SSPX hold the Council to be in error. That is plain on their website where they catalogue its supposed errors. See: sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q6_vaticanII.htm

Their point is that the Council did not hold itself to be infalllible, but since it issued two dogmatic constitutions that’s a conclusion that’s hard to avoid. And that brings me back to my earlier point, assuming the Lefebvrites are correct,(for the sake of argument) then an ecumenical council is in error as is the post Vatican II magisterium of the popes. And how could that mess possibly be sorted out and preserve a sense of respect for the Magisterium’s integrity. I would like to see how the SSPX wants to handle such a situation. This needs a response from supporters of the SSPX.

C.
An Ecumenical Council is only infallible when it proclaims or decrees an article of faith or morals. Vatican II was not a council about faith. It was really a council for the benefit of the bishops. It was to help the bishops adopt a pastoral praxis that would respond to the needs of the Church in the modern world.

That being said, it must also be understood that an Ecumenical Council can be about anything that the pope puts on the agenda. This is what Pope John XXIII put on the agenda, the renewal of pastoral life. The Council does not have to carry the weight of extraordinary infallibility, because it is not defining doctrine. However, it does carry the weight of ordinary infallibility whent it bases its teachings on dogmas and doctrines that have been proclaimed infallibly.

Here is the problem. Many of Traditionalists have some difficulty understanding the Church as she understands herself. In other words, they have difficulty understanding what the Church is saying in her own language. I believe that I mentioned before that Fr. Benedict G. and Fr. Wade M. and Fr. Corapi have all said that the average lay person whould pick up and read and go to school. Because with the increasing amount of communication, the laity has access to many eclesial writings, but not always the right training and it is being read very literally, when it is not intended to be read literally.

The other night Fr. Pacwa made apoint of this. He was talking abou this very question, "Could the Council be in error and thus the Magisterium?’ His answer was, “absolutely not.” The Council is protected by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church, while Archbishop Lefebvre is not, because no individual bishop constitutes the Magisterium. “You must be in communion with the Holy Father.” The moment that a Catholic breaks that communion, he is no longer protected by the grace. The Archbishop disobeyed the mandate regarding ordination. That done, he is no longer a legitimate respresentative of the Church, as are none of the SSPX bishops. even though they are back in the Church.

If one is not a legal representative of the Church, one has no authority declare that a Council and the subsequent popes are in error, since the Council and the popes are in communion with each other. This is what Pope Benedict wants the SSPX bishops to accept when he says that they must accept the teaching authority of the Council. It need not be extraordinarilly infallible to carry the weight of teaching authority. And much of what it said is based on doctrine.

Also, much of what it laid aside was not based on doctrine, but on disciplines of previous popes and councils. Just as much of what this council has said are disciplines that do not bind future popes and councils. As Fr. Pacwa was saying and I agree, because a pope uses words such as “We proclaim; in perpetuity; for all time,” and so forth, they are binding until it is changed by another pope or council, except if it’s a matter of dogma. He explained that the form of the liturgy is not dogma, but tradition. It contains dogma and it is part of Sacred Tradition and should be treated with great reverence. I agree with him on that too.

But we do have to read what the Church writes about herself as she means it. This would reduce debate and speed up reunification. Let us pray for this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Well, I’m really waiting for a response from those who support the SSPX on the points I made.

C.
 
Well, I’m really waiting for a response from those who support the SSPX on the points I made.

C.
I wanted to let you know that I read your posts. I’m planning to respond to you, but don’t have time right now. I’ll try to respond tomorrow.

CraddleCath: I also want to respond to a few of your posts when I get some free time.
 
Bro. JR,
I just noticed from reading some of your other posts that you are suffering from cancer. I am so sorry to know this and you are in my prayers for healing.

God bless,

C.
 
Bro. JR,
I just noticed from reading some of your other posts that you are suffering from cancer. I am so sorry to know this and you are in my prayers for healing.

God bless,

C.
Thank you for your kind thoughts. I’m in the hospital right now. I’ve been here for four days. They had do a precedure to determine how far the cancer is spreading. I have no information yet. I’m hoping to go home soon. I’d rather wait for the results there than here.

I’ve told the Lord that I’m really very busy this week for this kind of stuff. I hope that he’s listening. In any case, please pray for me, that I may love him as much as he loved me from the cross.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I sure will pray for you. I’ll be going to the National Shrine tomorrow and will remember you there. I gather your laptop is keeping you busy! It’s good you have that with you. 👍

God bless,

C.
 
I sure will pray for you. I’ll be going to the National Shrine tomorrow and will remember you there. I gather your laptop is keeping you busy! It’s good you have that with you. 👍

God bless,

C.
If you go to the National Shrine can you do me a favor? My two favorite chapels are the Immaculate Heart and the Blessed Sacrament Chapel. Please deliver two messages for me.
  1. To the Immadulate Heart: “May we always the Church with your heart.”
  2. to the Blessed Sacrament: “May we be willing to suffer in our bodies what you suffered on the cross.”
II spent six years in that place I received one of my theology degrees from Catholic University. Thanks for the favor. I hope it’s not too much trouble.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thank you for your kind thoughts. I’m in the hospital right now. I’ve been here for four days. They had do a precedure to determine how far the cancer is spreading. I have no information yet. I’m hoping to go home soon. I’d rather wait for the results there than here.

I’ve told the Lord that I’m really very busy this week for this kind of stuff. I hope that he’s listening. In any case, please pray for me, that I may love him as much as he loved me from the cross.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
You have my prayers as well. Your contributions to this forum have been extremely helpful and much appreciated. God will reward you for your charity as well.
 
If you go to the National Shrine can you do me a favor? My two favorite chapels are the Immaculate Heart and the Blessed Sacrament Chapel. Please deliver two messages for me.
  1. To the Immadulate Heart: “May we always the Church with your heart.”
  2. to the Blessed Sacrament: “May we be willing to suffer in our bodies what you suffered on the cross.”
II spent six years in that place I received one of my theology degrees from Catholic University. Thanks for the favor. I hope it’s not too much trouble.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Dear Bro.,
I absolutely will do that for you! I will also offer a prayer to Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha for you. It’s time for her miracle so she may be canonized, may God grant that you are the one! Thank you for your dedication to the religious life.

Love and prayers,

c.
 
What he did was acted imprudently. He knows how hard the Church is working on building Catholic-Jewish relationship. He knows that the number of Jews and others who died on the Shoah has already been accepted by most credible scholars. He knew there are eye-witnesses still alive who saw what happened in the Shoah. He knew how sensitive his boss (the Holy Father) is to this topic. He could have kept his opinion to himself and not caused so much grief for the Holy Father.

This makes it look imprudent or callous on his part. Even Bishop Fellay told him to be silent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Found the clip
youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM
 
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