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ProVobis
Guest
Hmmm.
The Bishop of Campos, Bishop De Castro Mayer, refused the New Mass in his diocese. AFAIK, he did have that authority. That is until he performed the four consecrations with the AB in 1988.
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The Bishop of Campos, Bishop De Castro Mayer, refused the New Mass in his diocese. AFAIK, he did have that authority. That is until he performed the four consecrations with the AB in 1988.
C
casual_visitor
Guest
Is it just usual on this forum to attack without understanding what was said? As I clarified to Pnewton even afterwards, there is no logical rule that says proving a negative is impossible. That was not a claim about Catholicism but a statement regarding logic in general.
The application of it or request of it regarding a specific claim might indeed be erroneous. But to linger on that would be to argue about something I never said. I merely stated the invalidity of his general statement that proving a negative is logically impossible.
M
maurin
Guest
at that point he was weel past his retirement age, and was no longer Bishop of Campos.
The context of the remark you were responding to was that in light of HH Benedict having made clear the Mass in question was never abrogated, I had stated Holy Marcel Lefebvre did in fact possess that authority not to use the NO Missae. To stretch that to make me say he was on the same footing as Pope Paul VI --or a higher authority than HH-- is just plain misrepresenting me.
But you bring up a great point. Bishop de Castro Mayer was the Ordinary of Campos for several years after the imposition of the NO Missae, and the majority of his Priests remained true to their Bishop. Some of his Priests disagreed, and His Excellency did not prevent them from celebrating the NO Mass.
C
casual_visitor
Guest
So ok, am I required to believe that Protestants are a defective organ in the mystical body of Christ? Or can I still hold on to the belief that they are outside the mystical body of Christ with an imperfect relationship with it?
What necessitates me to accept it as a defective organ?
Also, at what point do you consider a group of people who hold positions deemed as heresy as part of the mystical body of Christ? Is it after the First generation? Second? 10 Generations? What was the plumb line to assert that Protestants today are different from that of time of Luther? Aren’t their beliefs the same? Presbyterians still hate everything Catholic, the young Calvinist still believes in double predestination, so what is the difference?
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Nope. One example is that Martin Luther, while less Marian than the Catholic Church of his time, was light years more Marian than any present day Protestant (at least those in an official capacity).
For example:
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
The Grace is available 100% to all human beings.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
No, not at all. I’m suggesting as gently as possible that you don’t understand the true meaning of Universal Ecclesia. That’s not a juridical body, it is a spiritual Reality, an extraordinary Mystery. All people who seek Christ are part of the Mystical Body. Some of those people might never even have heard of Him. God is mercy, charity, reconciliation, acceptance, forgiveness. The keys to the Kingdom are found in these things. People who love, truly and selflessly, these are people of the Body of Christ, no matter what labels we put on them in terms of religions.
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casual_visitor
Guest
So if I may gently suggest, after reading what you wrote above regarding many other things that didn’t even concern Vatican II, is it possible that you have a lot more misunderstandings than me on a lot of issues? So perhaps its best that I not follow your advice?
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casual_visitor
Guest
Ok so you are saying the Protestant church now is worse off than even then
?
O
Old_Salt
Guest
“They were lifted against those bishops who are still alive but unfortunately the Archbishop died excommunicated…”
And as the Church teaches an excommunication ceases upon the death of one who has ben declared excommunicated, if one was really excommunicated.
And as the Church teaches an excommunication ceases upon the death of one who has ben declared excommunicated, if one was really excommunicated.
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JReducation
Guest
This was not done to accommodate ecumenism. This is a development of theological thought. The basic doctrine remains unchanged. There is a Mystical Body of which Christ is the head.So what is left to believe? I was a fool for even defending the church all these years on its initial statement in MCC? The liberals at that time were spot on?
Why can’t we simply see the Protestants as having a relationship rather than being an imperfect organ? At least then its consistent with what was there before
Is not the cost of this change to accommodate ecumenism too high?
What has evolved is the Protestant community. The Church looks at it in its present state. You have to keep in mind the words of Pope Benedict, because they’re very helpful. “Today’s Protestantism must be looked at in a different light, because it’s a different phenomena from that past.”
Neither MCC or Ut Unum Sint have tried to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. They are two theological comments looking at the Mystical Body and looking at Protestantism through different lenses. There is no change in our view of the Mystical Body, only in our understanding of Protestantism. But our understanding of Protestantism was never a dogma. It was a theological opinion.
As Pope Boniface said, any pope can move away from a statement or law by a previous pope or even an ecumenical council. He cannot move away from dogma or invent new dogma. The Church’s understanding of Protestantism was not then and is not now dogma.
Again, I repeat. pay attention to Pope Benedict’s words. “a different phenomena”. He’s trying to say, “We’re not sure how it all fits together, but we know one thing, it does not fit the way that we thought it did.”
He provided the wording for UT Unum Sint that Pope John Paul uses when he speaks about incorporating by Baptism. This way, they avoided clashing with previous documents over the term Mystical Body. However, in Latin incorporate breaks down into “in corpus” to include in the body. What body? There is only one.
You can hear the Church’s great sorrow in other documents when she comments about how the Body of Christ has been wounded by the divisions among Christians. This not pure PC. This is the Church expressing real concern about a real break and trying to understand the whole thing. She understands the Mystical Body. Understanding the incorporation is a whole other issue. She believes in the incorporation, because there is only one baptism. We state that in the Creed. How it all works is what had to be clarified. This is the phenomena.
Rather than lose sleep over it, I just opt to let those who are experts in ecclessiology deal with it. Ecclessiology is not my area of expertise. I’m an Ascetical and Mystical Theologian. That’s what I teach. I studied enough Ecclesiology in the seminary to learn how to read the documents, but not enough to evaluate a situation as complex as the Protestant Phenomena. How many Catholics have that kind of theological expertise? Very few. Let’s leave it to the experts to figure it out. It will happen.
I believe that’s what got the SSPX in trouble and why they lost 13 communities that were once affiliated with them and are now reconciled with the Holy See. These communities realized that all of these questions have answers, but not all of the answers are available right now. It would be crazy to wait another generation or two for the answers, when they could be inside the Church working on finding the answers rather than outside the Church or on the fringes demanding answers that the Church cannot give them today.
Fr. Michael Mary (I believe that’s his name) the superior of the Transalpine Redemptorists said this very well. He said, that there were many questions and that he was confident that the answers would be coming, but he did not want his community to be on the outside when they could be on the inside helping to find the answers. He made the decision to reconcile with the Holy See. It cost him 1/3 of his community. They walked away. Don’t ask me where they went, because he does not say.
But I admire his attitude. Let’s not lose sleep over this. This is a situation that is very new and needs to be looked at very carefully. When the Church says carefully, she usually thinks in terms of decades or even centuries not a year or two.
Rather than agonize about the answer to the question of the Protestant Phenomena, I simply deal with what is within my realm of expertise and what is before me. God does not ask me to convert the Church. He asks me to be faithful to the things in front of me.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Julia_Mae
Guest
I don’t recall giving you advice. Unless I would say read the Gospels and follow HIS advice. That’s my only advice.
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Laudate_Dominum
Guest
From what I know they’re “ministering” in SSPX “parishes”. I believe one is still in Orkney “ministering” to the SSPX supporters that moved up north to be close to the community when they established their monastery whilst still separated from Rome.
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Rabark
Guest
So, I have a question and I apologize if this is simplistic. I am a recent convert and have worked with some SSPX laity.
I have heard some venom from SSPX laity that appear to have a borderline personality disorder…but nonetheless are God’s children and I hope come into union.
The question; amidst this, a SSPX physician brought up a very valid question: what have been wrong with keeping the tridentine mass, with a complete literal and substantive translation?
I think the novus ordo and tridentine are quite beautiful and incredible. Any thoughts on this?
It all seems quite sad, as I have met many fallen Catholics that became Orthodox after the change.
I have heard some venom from SSPX laity that appear to have a borderline personality disorder…but nonetheless are God’s children and I hope come into union.
The question; amidst this, a SSPX physician brought up a very valid question: what have been wrong with keeping the tridentine mass, with a complete literal and substantive translation?
I think the novus ordo and tridentine are quite beautiful and incredible. Any thoughts on this?
It all seems quite sad, as I have met many fallen Catholics that became Orthodox after the change.
J
JReducation
Guest
As far as the Church is concerned, the 1962 edition of the Tridentine form is perfectly legal. There is nothing wrong with using it.
The Vatican’s issue with the SSPX is not over the mass. It’s over ecclesiology.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ProVobis
Guest
The 2007 SP allows the 1962 Missal to be said only in the Latin. And I have yet to see a literal and substantive translation, although the Polish version in the handmissal isn’t that far off. However, any vernacular would compromise the integrity of the 1962 Missal and I would really be surprised if a true SSPXer would push for it.
J
JReducation
Guest
I don’t think that the 1962 missal was ever translated into any other language, except for the purpose of following along, not to be used at mass.
The Franciscans have their own version of the Tridentine mass, which has a lot of modern language in it, but that was because they had it since the 13th century and were allowed to keep it when the Tridentine form became the universal form. Even there, it’s not the whole mass that’s translated, but very small parts that are hardly noticeable.
I guess one can translate the 1962 missal. But it still has to be approved by the CDW. There is no moral law or canon that says you can’t do so. As in all cases regarding liturgy, mass or Divine Office, such translations have to be approved.
Why would anyone want to do that is beyond me.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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piouswoman
Guest
Play by what rules? The rules of the Catholic Church or the rules of the modernists that have overtaken the Church since Vatican II? The church went astray in the 1960’s…they didn’t play by the “rules” back then, they didn’t care that they were overturning nearly 2000 years of tradition, and yet now they want the sspx to play by their own concocted modern era rules?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes play by the rules of the Catholic Church, not some imagined group thought up by conspiracy theorists.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Did you all see this heartfelt letter to the SSPX from Monsignor Nicola Bux?
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