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JamesCaruso
Guest
And lively debate is good. Were there debates on the new translation of the Novus Ordo?
Anyway, when the Church decides which is best, that’s it. I don’t have aby problem with that.
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Anyway, when the Church decides which is best, that’s it. I don’t have aby problem with that.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Well, if you notice, I did say “One cannot “much” attend fully if one does not know exactly what is transpiring.” Maybe the wording is clumsy, but I contend that the better you know the words, what they mean, and when different parts of the Mass are taking place based on the words, the better you can attend fully. Or another way of saying it, you can attend more fully if you know what is being said and what it means. I know a lot of words in the EF are said silently during the Mass. You should be reading what the priest is saying in English, which is what most people do. But when he does speak audibly, I think one is more in touch when the words have meaning. Maybe it’s just me, but I like to participate in every nuance of the Mass. Without the translation, the next best thing is to study the Latin and commit its meaning to memory, otherwise you will be jumping back and forth to the English translation trying to figure if this is what the priest is saying by identifying the Latin words and then reading the corresponding English translation on the righthand page. If you happen to be without a missal, forget it. It was exactly this scenario that resulted in so many people saying their rosary at the Mass because the Mass wasn’t conducive to them knowing what was going on. While I do like the EF, I think Vatican II bears me out of this. Otherwise, there would have been no perceived need for change. And it is the Holy Spirit who guides such councils, at least, I have alway believed so.
The important aspect of Latin is that it preserves the meaning of everything the Church reduces to writing, especially since it is a dead language. So it is good for conserving meaning, but not as good, IMHO, for conveying meaning in a person to person setting such as the Mass. Also, it is indispensable for singing Gregorian chant and certain other songs. They just don’t come out as beautiful when sung in the English language. Maybe they do in Spanish or Italian, or other romance languages, but English is not a good fit for such songs. So, I am not for dispensing with Latin altogether. It has it’s place, and every Catholic should know certain prayers and songs in Latin. I believe Vatican II even says as much.
Sometimes I sing Latin songs as a member of the choir. Even though I may read the translation a few times, not being conversant in Latin, I soon forget much of it. So, there I am singing as beautifully as possible something that I don’t understand. It’s still praise, but it would be a whole lot more so if I knew exactly what I was saying so I could connect my feeling with the meaning. Eventually, I hope to know and understand all the hymns I sing in Latin, but there are not enough hours in the day for me to do so quickly with all my other obligations, so it will be a long process. The Novo Ordo is not near as beautiful and solemn as the EF IMO (your mileage may vary) but at least I can get my heart wrapped around every prayer that is said, mostly by the priest. For me, an EF in the vernacular would be a step up from the OF, with some of the common prayers that everyone knows in Latin perhaps. Most know the Kyrie, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei, and most know the gist of the Gloria and the Credo in Latin, or they should. Perfection in translation I am not looking for. The translation that is in the Latin EF missals is probably not perfect, but that doesn’t seem to bother anyone.
Whether it can be done as a practical matter is another thing. That is up to the Church to decide. And, BTW, I would not do away with the Latin EF. It is a Mass that I would like time to grow into. It is enormously beautiful, and must be a great blessing to those who have mastered the Latin. But lest we forget, Jesus taught in the vernacular, and He instituted the Holy Eucharist either in the vernacular or Hebrew, both of which the participants understood. It’s not like we would be treading on new ground.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
No, I didn’t mean as in fulfilling one’s obligation. I meant fully as in being able to more fully wrap one’s heart and mind around every word and meaning so conveyed in the celebration of the Mass. Sorry if I failed to communicate.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I have on occasion stumbled into an Italian Mass in New York City, I can of course follow the action because the Novus Ordo is so simple to begin with, but I can’t say I get as much out of it as when I understand the words, say, for instance, the Eucharistic Prayer or the Preface. And of course the readings and the homily fall on deaf ears,Agreed.I am exactly the opposite. I “get” much more out of Mass when it is another language. I found this out about myself accidently when living as an expat in another country. My habit was to go over the readings before going to Mass and then spend Mass time immersed in the liturgy itself and not in the words. It lets me participate in Mass with all of my senses.
For that reason, I don’t think a EF Mass in English would be any more fulfilling for me than a regular OF Mass. And certainly wouldn’t be worth the drive.
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Usige
Guest
I tend to be like you. While I know (for the most part) what is said in Latin, I find that English in the OF tends to distract me to the point that my mind drifts. I suspect the same would happen if the EF was in English. All I can figure is that because of my ADHD when I hear things in English my mind starts following a barrage of tangential thoughts. When I pray or hear the Mass in Latin I can focus more on the essence of the liturgy rather than how some phase reminds me of waterfalls that then reminds me to get soap on the way home. My thoughts start to spiral and next thing I know my inner voice is going “… (dang, what did Father just say) …” I don’t have that happen nearly as much when at an EF mass.Agreed.
For that reason, I don’t think a EF Mass in English would be any more fulfilling for me than a regular OF Mass. And certainly wouldn’t be worth the drive.
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ProVobis
Guest
Ecclesiastical Latin was never a vernacular or street language. And I don’t know how much of the Latin Mass, either OF or EF, was actually translated from the Greek. The Creed might have been but problems did come up as you probably know.
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ProVobis
Guest
There were plenty of debates on the translation before the Novus Ordo was promulgated. In fact the debate continued for at least 40 years AFAIK.
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ProVobis
Guest
But He Himself worshipped in Hebrew, athough he probably kicked the moneychangers out in the vernacular.
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ProVobis
Guest
When I don’t attend the EF, I attend a very nearby Spanish Mass. I just follow the tone of the readings and the homily. The Mass isn’t as simple as you state though, given the many options available throughout. The missalettes do help though. And I always needed one even when I used to attend English Masses. I find spoken English with its many homophones and dialects not that easy to follow. I miss a lot (or fall asleep) and at least with the missal that way I can go back and review the passage. But I can more easily pay attention (and remember more) with a side-by-side Latin-English or Latin-Spanish.I have on occasion stumbled into an Italian Mass in New York City, I can of course follow the action because the Novus Ordo is so simple to begin with, but I can’t say I get as much out of it as when I understand the words, say, for instance, the Eucharistic Prayer or the Preface. And of course the readings and the homily fall on deaf ears,
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runningdude
Guest
That is a non-sequitor; it simply does not logically follow as a response to the previous comment.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
So, you don’t follow the EF with the English translation either? Are you saying you’d rather be in the dark as to what is being said? You did say that English words distract you. What are you focusing on during those times when something big is not happening, like the consecration?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Well, the Bible came from Greek and Hebrew translations, and parts of the Mass comes from the Bible. Also, the first Masses must have been in other than Latin, such as before Peter came to Rome (did he learn Latin?) and before Paul came to Rome (did he know Latin?). The Divine Liturgy of St. James, an early form of the Mass, that we looked at on another thread, is almost verbatim in parts to our present day Mass, yet it was written in Syriac, a dialect of Middle Aramaic. newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm
Read this excerpt for the consecration:
Then the Priest holds the bread in his hand, and says:—
XXX. Having taken the bread in His holy and pure and blameless and immortal hands, lifting up His eyes to heaven, and showing it to You, His God and Father, He gave thanks, and hallowed, and broke, and gave it to us, His disciples and apostles, saying:—
The Deacons say:
For the remission of sins and life everlasting.
Then he says aloud:—
Take, eat: this is my body, broken for you, and given for remission of sins.
The People.
Amen.
Then he takes the cup, and says:—
In like manner, after supper, He took the cup, and having mixed wine and water, lifting up His eyes to heaven, and presenting it to You, His God and Father, He gave thanks, and hollowed and blessed it, and filled it with the Holy Spirit, and gave it to us His disciples, saying, Drink all of it; this is my blood of the new testament shed for you and many, and distributed for the remission of sins.
The People.
Amen.
The Priest.
This do in remembrance of me; for as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show forth the Lord’s death, and confess His resurrection, till He come.
The Deacons say:—
We believe and confess:
The People.
We show forth Your death, O Lord, and confess Your resurrection.
The Mass did not originate in Latin.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
When I said simple, I was referring to the Novus Ordo, which I do find simpler than the EF, although the EF has much stricter rubrics.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Probably!But He Himself worshipped in Hebrew, athough he probably kicked the moneychangers out in the vernacular.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Most of that was likely deciding on what was the best literal translation.
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Corki
Guest
I wouldn’t say I find the words a distraction but I tend to focus on the words and not every thing else. When I go to a Mass where the language is not English, I attend to everything as a “package”.
If I was a new Catholic, I suppose I would be in the dark. But I have attended thousands of Masses over my lifetime. I know what is being said during each part of the Mass whether I am hearing each word or not. The Confetior is always where we express sorrow for our sins, the Consecration is where the Eucharist is confected, the Offertory is where the gifts are presented and the altar prepared, etc. I have been to Masses in English, Spanish, Italian, Latin and Thai and was never in the dark as to what was being said. We are supposed to be focusing on the mystery and the sacrifice and the language doesn’t inhibit that (at least for me).
BTW, in the OF many parts are said soto voce and not readily heard by the congregation. Would it matter what language they were whispered in?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I like to be as much one with the priest as possible, and this is heightened by knowing what he is praying, when he is praying it, and joining in his praying it as much as possible. I know the Our Father, so when the priest says the Our Father in Latin, I can join him exactly, but if I didn’t already know the Our Father, it would be unsatisfactory for me to only know when he was saying it. In point of fact, I understand the Latin in some common prayers like the Our Father, and this is the best way to participate. The closer I can get to the words of what the priest is saying, the more I feel that I am a participant in the Mass, not just an onlooker, participating ip parts when I recognize them, and then only in so much as I know the details of what is being said. If you think you participate more without knowing the words, you are a better person than I, because the words help me immeasurably.
As for the Novus Ordo, when the priest whispers certain words, such as during the offertory, I have a missal handy where I say the same words with him. Any less, I feel more like an onlooker rather than a participant. I’m not trying to convince you, only reporting what is best for me. That is why I would love to see the EF in English, at least, those prayers that are audible.
I suppose the inaudible prayers in the EF, which is most of them, don’t matter in terms of translation, except to the extent that they provide the priest himself with a better understanding of what he is saying. I can spout off Latin all day long, but that doesn’t mean I comprehend all that much of what I am reading from the book or Mass card. I certainly hope that priests know exactly what they are saying, but with the infrequency of EF Masses, and the fact that Latin is not taught in many seminaries today, combined with the length of some prayers in the EF, I am guessing that many priests don’t know exactly what they are saying, maybe in the ball park, but not exactly, What kind of prayer is that? How do you get your heart and mind around a prayer you don’t fully understand? I may be misjudging priests, but am I? I don’t know. Is reading it in English beforehand sufficient? I don’t know.
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ProVobis
Guest
Good point. Why go through all the translation wars and costs when the Offertory Prayers (and many other prayers in the EF) are said quietly (I believe Trent called them submissa voce) anyway? And if the call is to say them out loud, then it wouldn’t be the Tridentine Mass.
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TimothyH
Guest
Jesus worshipped in spirit and truth.But He Himself worshipped in Hebrew, athough he probably kicked the moneychangers out in the vernacular.
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:23-24)
Jesus worshipped God in his actions, by following his Father’s will instead of his own.
-Tim-
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ProVobis
Guest
It seems that the audible prayers in the EF (Gloria, Credo, some Prefaces, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei, etc.) are said in the OF. So the English OF should suffice for the churchgoer, no? I’m sure the priest understands the text of the Mass, and not necessarily word-for-word, either. We now have a deacon who is struggling with Gospel (and the Passion narrrator) readings in Spanish. And I mean struggle. I doubt if anyone ask him after Mass if he knows what he is saying.
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