Bishop: Patrick Kennedy Misrepresenting Letter on Communion, Abortion

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No, I understood your point. I just disagree completely with foundation of your thought. First of all, there was not supposed to be a separation of church and state; the first amendment forbids the federal government from establishing a church as the national church. England, you may recall, had a government-established church which many of the colonists escaped by coming here. The first amendment was to protect personal religion, not eradicate it.

Secondly, on a personal level, if a person believes that killing unborn human beings is wrong, how on earth do you expect that person to support abortion? Conversely, if a person does not think that killing unborn babies is wrong, he ought not receive the Eucharist in a Catholic church. The point of the bishop’s actions is not to get Kennedy to vote pro-life but to get him to realize that he can’t be a member of both the Catholic Church and the pro-abortion politician crowd.
I guess in your first paragraph, we’ll just have to agree to disagree as I was taught differently in school regarding separation of church and state.

As for your second paragraph; obviously if the politician as a person objects to abortion, its a no brainer not to expect him/her to support abortion rights as long as he’s not doing it because the church is telling him how to vote or take a position. Agreeably, whatever the church policy is regarding the receiving of Eucharist is soley up to the church and has no bearing on politics. I wasn’t challenging he Bishops action, just explaining why i have issues when political figures mix politics with religious views not just those on abortion.
 
Of course those fools will disagree. But what do they base their morality or ethic onb? Some changable. feel-good “I think this is right”, idea? Stop insulting our intelligence.

Justifying immoral behavior by saying, “but that is what an atheist would say” is as logical as saying “killing people is cool” because Ted Bundy thinks it was.

Your position is not tenable nor is it is intellectually honest. In fact, your position is inherently and intrinsically unjustifiable.

I will conclude by saying your posts are off topic, which is against forum rules.
I guess anyone who disagrees with you is a fool.

I can see its obvious your not interested in rational discussion.
 
Washington, DC – Congressman Patrick Kennedy, a pro-abortion member from Rhode Island, says Bishop Thomas Tobin has asked him to stop receiving communion because of his pro-abortion views. However, Tobin says the demand was merely a voluntary request that was issued two years ago and meant to be private.

lifenews.com/state4590.html
LOL. The Kennedys. What a joke.

One was a drunkard, one a womanizer, another a rapist… …the whole sorry lot should be excommunicated
 
Thanks for your response.

I’ll mention that to my friends and see if they agree with you although I have a suspicion that they’ll not be inclined to embrace your views but who knows? I don’t know if I don’t ask.
Its like like its all a Game… Take a look at your own Church & the UnBiblical aspects that they have embraced & foisted off upon the “flock”. You can not in all honesty tell me Civil / secular Politics played no role in that.

If you’re looking for hypocrites you need go no further than your bathroom mirror…

All True Moral & Ethical Codes of Conduct can be directly traced to a Religious Doctrine… To bad you Church Compromised so much of its illustrious past for the sake of accepting Sin as a normative means of daily life. Perhaps a refresher on Contrition & Confession & Penance would be in order.

Both Teddy & Patrick Kennedy would Undoubtedly have made fine Episcopalians, but as Practical Catholics they both Fail Miserably.
Please call your Bishop & ask him to invite Patrick to join because we don’t want him as long as he holds to these untenable positions that are in direct conflict with Church Doctrine. Your Church seems much more amendable to open & even crass Hypocrisy by your membership so you’re welcome to him…

As for Me & Mine We will respect life at all stages.
We’ll tow the Catholic line, Proudly, Unashamedly!
 
I guess in your first paragraph, we’ll just have to agree to disagree as I was taught differently in school regarding separation of church and state.
You might try reading the relevant passage: “**Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; **or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
As for your second paragraph; obviously if the politician as a person objects to abortion, its a no brainer not to expect him/her to support abortion rights as long as he’s not doing it because the church is telling him how to vote or take a position.
So what you’re saying is that it’s all right for Catholics to be pro-life as long as they aren’t doing it because that’s what their Church teaches?
Agreeably, whatever the church policy is regarding the receiving of Eucharist is soley up to the church and has no bearing on politics.
Exactly.
I wasn’t challenging he Bishops action, just explaining why i have issues when political figures mix politics with religious views not just those on abortion.
Well, if you prefer your politicians to be hypocrites, that’s up to you.🤷
 
Its like like its all a Game… Take a look at your own Church & the UnBiblical aspects that they have embraced & foisted off upon the “flock”. You can not in all honesty tell me Civil / secular Politics played no role in that.
I cannot confirm nor deny what I did not personally wittness.
 
Its like like its all a Game… Take a look at your own Church & the UnBiblical aspects that they have embraced & foisted off upon the “flock”. You can not in all honesty tell me Civil / secular Politics played no role in that.

If you’re looking for hypocrites you need go no further than your bathroom mirror…

All True Moral & Ethical Codes of Conduct can be directly traced to a Religious Doctrine… To bad you Church Compromised so much of its illustrious past for the sake of accepting Sin as a normative means of daily life. Perhaps a refresher on Contrition & Confession & Penance would be in order.

Both Teddy & Patrick Kennedy would Undoubtedly have made fine Episcopalians, but as Practical Catholics they both Fail Miserably.
Please call your Bishop & ask him to invite Patrick to join because we don’t want him as long as he holds to these untenable positions that are in direct conflict with Church Doctrine. Your Church seems much more amendable to open & even crass Hypocrisy by your membership so you’re welcome to him…

As for Me & Mine We will respect life at all stages.
We’ll tow the Catholic line, Proudly, Unashamedly!
Ok, you feel better now that you got that off your chest?

Its a very sad when you resort to “trashing” other religions, and/or those who don’t agree with your beliefs. While neither the Episcopal nor the Roman Catholic churches are perfect, you don’t see me trashing them.

Obviously if Patrick would like to attend our church, he would be welcome to; however to ask the Bishop to invite him is not being very realistic. If you expect to be taken seriously you might reconsider the way in which conduct yourself in here.
 
LOL. The Kennedys. What a joke.

One was a drunkard, one a womanizer, another a rapist… …the whole sorry lot should be excommunicated
Your comment reminded me of some reading selections from Stanley Hauerwas’ Matthew, which I include here:

Jesus’ Family Of Murderers, Cheats, Cowards, Adulterers And Liars (Hey, He’s One of Us!)
In his wonderful sermon “The Genealogy of Christ,” Herbert McCabe suggests that in his genealogy Matthew was reminding us that Jesus was tied to the squalid reality of human life often exemplified in our sexual behavior as well as our politics. McCabe runs through the list of characters that make up the genealogy noting they are anything but an admirable group of folk.

The unscrupulous but entertaining Jacob won his position in the line that leads to Christ by lying and cheating his blind father; David, the ruthless and highly successful bandit, unites the tribes of Israel through intrigue and murder, Rehoboam son of Solomon loses most of David’s gains through arrogance and greedy Ahaziah son of Ahab continued his father’s ways as a sadistic mass murderer.

McCabe notes that things get only relatively better with the exile partly because the line of kings ends or at least we do not know their names. Matthew’s genealogy; therefore, is a stark indication that God’s plan is not always accomplished through pious people, but through “passionate and thoroughly disreputable people” According to McCabe, the moral is almost too obvious to belabor Jesus did not belong to the nice clean world of middle-class respectability; but rather he “belonged to a family of murders, cheats, cowards, adulterers and liars — he belonged to us and came to help us, no wonder he came to a bad end, and gave us some hope.”

More reading selections here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/10/02/book-recommendation-matthew-brazos-theological-commentary-on-the-bible-by-stanley-hauerwas/

I think all the Bishop did was ask Kennedy to think and is now being sandbagged by the little twerp. Look at his father and the letter to the Pope the family is dragging about and showing everyone on Oprah. Sad that they even think they have a legacy after all we know about them. Unlike Jesus they offer no hope.

dj
 
I occasionally am accused of elitism on this board due to a tiresome habit of calling a spade a spade.

Here is the truth of it. Congressman Kennedy is a Liberal humanist politician who happened to be a cradle catholic. He implicitly rejects the magisterium. He may be a Christian - I don’t know - but if so he is a classical protestant protesting his conscience in defiance of the Church. Congressman Kennedy is in no meaningful sense a catholic.
 
I occasionally am accused of elitism on this board due to a tiresome habit of calling a spade a spade.

Here is the truth of it. Congressman Kennedy is a Liberal humanist politician who happened to be a cradle catholic. He implicitly rejects the magisterium. He may be a Christian - I don’t know - but if so he is a classical protestant protesting his conscience in defiance of the Church. Congressman Kennedy is in no meaningful sense a catholic.
Correct
 
Actually, it’s easy to understand.

Such people feel that they ‘own’ their faith, and that they can determine what exactly they ‘take’ or ‘get’ from it.

Sometimes it’s cultural. They want all the warm fuzzies of whatever their cultural Catholicism is noted for. . .but none of the bother of the actual practice of the religion. These are the ones who wear rosaries or jeweled crucifixes, make a big point of dressing in green on St. Patrick’s Day, buy gifts on Christmas, eat ham on Easter, and ‘use’ Catholicism to make themselves look good.

If they’re politicians, so much the better. They can attempt to play both sides. . .appeal to any of their constituents (hey, we’re both Catholics, ya know? ) whether the constituents are faithful (hey, we’re BOTH Catholics, ya know?) or not so faithful, (hey, we’re both Catholics, but you and I know the REAL deal and we’re working for the REAL ‘Christ’, ya know?). And they really, REALLY get brownie points from the virulently antiCatholic if they PRESENT ourselves as Catholic yet pointedly diverge from the teaching.

And of course, the issue of pride. Pride in determining that THEY (they alone) are the ‘right’ kind of Catholic, that they (they alone) have the truth. If the bishop or others DARE to ‘defy’ them, well, that just shows how wonderful Mr. Kennedy and his ilk are (in their minds) because they aren’t going to give those bishops the satisfaction of ‘getting rid of them’. Oh, no, Mr. Kennedy is bound and determined that if HE wants to claim Catholicism, he ‘damn well’ will, and to hell with anybody who says otherwise. It is a total power trip and has nothing to do with Christ (whom few of these people would even recognize, sadly). It’s all “my wants, my needs, my thoughts, my decisions, my life, me me me.”
May I abridge your accurate summation? It’s Protestantiam.
 
Ok, you feel better now that you got that off your chest?

Its a very sad when you resort to “trashing” other religions, and/or those who don’t agree with your beliefs. While neither the Episcopal nor the Roman Catholic churches are perfect, you don’t see me trashing them.

Obviously if Patrick would like to attend our church, he would be welcome to; however to ask the Bishop to invite him is not being very realistic. If you expect to be taken seriously you might reconsider the way in which conduct yourself in here.

You were certainly trashing Us Catholics that didn’t bow to the Kennedy Klan. You were trashing our Bishops who sought to make an example of this Farcical Kennedy.

As far as trashing your church, I did nothing more that point out the very poignant
status of it as it exists today. They only ones that trashed it are within the confines
of the hierarchy of your Church that accepted & promulgated those clearly anti-biblical
practices. Practices that you seem quite content accepting.

As a Catholic, I have no obligation to allow someone - like yourself - to disparage my Church & its leadership. Instead I will proudly mount a defense of my church. If that offends you or if reading about the reality of your church today offends you - Too Bad!

No where in Catholic doctrine does it state that we are to be doormats for those that revile us, that would breakaway via heresy, or others that are against The Church the Jesus Christ founded.

Lastly, I certainly don’t need any lessons from you on how to conduct myself. Perhaps you’d be better off trying to get your own House/Church in order before coming here & belittling mine & defending Her detractors.

See ya at your next schism!
 
Ok, you feel better now that you got that off your chest?

Its a very sad when you resort to “trashing” other religions, and/or those who don’t agree with your beliefs. While neither the Episcopal nor the Roman Catholic churches are perfect, you don’t see me trashing them.

Obviously if Patrick would like to attend our church, he would be welcome to; however to ask the Bishop to invite him is not being very realistic. If you expect to be taken seriously you might reconsider the way in which conduct yourself in here.
Please remain on topic. Your posts, aside from the fact that they are anti-Catholic, are off topic. The topic is about the dispute between Patrick Kennedy, his refusal to publicly behave in a life-and-death matter consistent with Christian and Catholic teaching (favoring murder), and his bishop, who has spiritual authority over him.

It is not about your desire to attack those who disagree with your bloodthirsty ideas that babies should be murdered at a whim.
 
To return to the meat of this thread I feel every sympathy for the bishops on this one.

Kennedy and the rest of the clique of nominally catholic anti Church pro choicers are a diseased cuckoo in the nest badly hampering the Church in her effforts to protect the life of the unborn. The vice President is another. They are in the proper sense a scandal.

However if the bishops act firmly they are lambasted. If they don’t act they are permitting error to go unchallenged. My own view is that the Church must somehow pluck up the courage to be the Church and not an anything goes cultural melting pot and it must publicly preach the sinfulness of those wilfully supporting this error.
 
This whole event has had ramifications that amaze me. On the website of “Catholics for Choice” (which IMHO should be titled “Catholics for Abortion”) Kennedy is being hailed as an American hero for standing up to the bishop. It’s being used as a tool to promote “abortion rights” (sorry, I cringe every time I write that) for Catholics.

I just can’t understand why anyone, whether Kennedy or another person who is pro-abortion, remains a member of the Catholic Church. Why don’t they just leave? Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of any people who wish to leave the Church. I myself left the Church decades ago and nobody stopped me (fortunately for me I came back). So why not leave? 🤷

Anyone who professes to be a Catholic and then says he or she does not let the Catholic Church influence or determine his or her political views or voting is a hypocrite. Plain and simple. Using the “separation of Church and State” is simply a cop-out and a feeble attempt to rationalize one’s real views.
 
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