Bishop punishes traditional/orthodox parish

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Since the Orange County Register article below was written St. Mary’s by the Sea parish has yet to have a permanent pastor instead the bishop has assigned a priest to act as a temporary/interim administrator. The congregation has been almost cut in half since the Latin Mass devotees are now forced to travel 30 to 50 miles to the only other church in our diocese which offers the Tridentine Mass. The current priest has been ordered by bishop Brown to cut out most of the Mass rituals and church traditions (no more daily confessions, discouraged parishioners from receiving communion at the altar rail, Communion is now offered under both species)

**There have been at least three priests who have offered to celebrate the Latin Mass but were **
turned down.
I am not a parishioner at this parish but I have many friends who are and I think it’s sad what is happening there.

The Catholic Church’s great divide

lewrockwell.com/ocregister/catholic-divide.html

thelaity.com/emailblasts/tridentinemass.htm

losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0406rk.htm
 
Yes, it is very sad.

People don’t care about liturgical abuses or priests and religious who teach heresy- why do they destroy a Latin Mass community? Because they’re jealous of the zeal for the faith found in the Latin Mass communities.

Many Catholics just go through the motions- and think that’s all they have to do, or they like to go to Mass and to pray, but they don’t want to go very deep into their faith- talks on doctrine, and the spirituality of the saints are too deep for them. They find Catholics who are passionate about their faith to be annoying.
 
The congregation has been almost cut in half since the Latin Mass devotees are now forced to travel 30 to 50 miles to the only other church in our diocese which offers the Tridentine Mass.
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Or many the people who want to attend Latin mass don’t have to travel the 30-50 miles (if they live adjacent to the other church that is).

Wherever the indult mass is put, it will be far from some and close to others.

Probably the best solution would be to move the latin mass around on a weekly basis. In Pittsburgh diocese, e.g., there are about 250 parishes, give or take. Instead of just having the Latin mass in one location, wouldn’t it be more equitable to have it in EVERY parish, but on a once every five year schedule?
 
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Kielbasi:
Probably the best solution would be to move the latin mass around on a weekly basis. In Pittsburgh diocese, e.g., there are about 250 parishes, give or take. Instead of just having the Latin mass in one location, wouldn’t it be more equitable to have it in EVERY parish, but on a once every five year schedule?
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This was a latin Mass church- it was more than an indult Mass once a week in an ordinary parish church- and when the priest retired, the bishop didn’t allow anyone else to come in and celebrate the TLM there.
 
This was a latin Mass church- it was more than an indult Mass once a week in an ordinary parish church- and when the priest retired, the bishop didn’t allow anyone else to come in and celebrate the TLM there.
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He might not be able to spare the people to do so. The Orange diocese might well have needed every hand available for the larger mainstream community.
 
Mr Greenhut is very observant and spot on, and I don’t know if he is a Catholic.

“This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.”

I do not want to hear that Liberal Bishops such as Brown,Levada, or others have the right to wage a silent war on traditional catholics,their actions speak loudly.

Fogny
 
Since I am somewhat familiar with this situation (I’m in the Diocese of Orange) let me offer some comments.

First, the parishioners at this parish screamed bloody murder when the former pastor was assigned there and set about changing everything in the church. Eventually, he attracted a group of people from the central part of the diocese who objected to the changes following Vatican II. There were also those who simply loved the Mass of Pius V. At the time there were three places in the diocese that offered this Mass. Those parishioners who did not like this shift were forced to find another parish.

Bishop Brown, in respecting the priest who was there, allowed this situation to continue until the priest reached retirement age, and then he decided that the conditions for permitting the Mass of Pius V under the Ecclesia Dei indult did not exist. That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself. Therefore, according to the directives of *Ecclesia Dei *and in accordance with the mandate of the bishop to regulate the liturgy in his diocese, he choose to replace the Mass of Pius V with the Mass of Paul VI – but in Latin.

It is true that they have an administrator, and they will soon have a new administrator.

BTW, the Mass of Pius V is still offered at Mission San Juan Capistrano which is 28 miles away from St. Mary’s by the Sea.

Deacon Ed
 
First off, the former Pastor is St. Marys by the Sea when he was assigned there in the late 70s made only one change, he re installed the altar rail, and distributed it there. Untill the early 90s, he was not granted the indult, while he did celebrate the Novus Ordo in Latin, he did so with the former Bishop of Oranges permission . This hardly constitutes a rejection of Vatican II.

It is horrible that Bp. Brown has acted in a manner that is even less pastoral than Cdl. Mahony, because he even lets a handful of parishes in the LA Archdiocese to retain use of the rail and some other traditional liturgucal practices(such as SS Peter & Paul in Willmington and St. Victors in West Hollywood). There were over 1000 singatures submitted sent to Bp. Brown begging for him to allow the Tridentine mass to be retained, he rejected those appeals, and he forced the parish to adapt liturgical practices that are hardly mandated by the Vatican. Whats more, the priests of the local Norbortine Abbey offered to send of their priests to celebrate the Tridentine mass(one of their priests offeres the Latin Novus Ordo there now)

All and all, what Bp. BRown has done is a disgrace, and its little wonder with his leadership, the Orange diocese produces almost no vocations. It is actions like those of Bp. BRown that have caused so many Traditional Catholics to adopt a bunker mentality and go beyond the diocesen structure to attend a mass with reverence.
Deacon Ed:
Since I am somewhat familiar with this situation (I’m in the Diocese of Orange) let me offer some comments.

First, the parishioners at this parish screamed bloody murder when the former pastor was assigned there and set about changing everything in the church. Eventually, he attracted a group of people from the central part of the diocese who objected to the changes following Vatican II. There were also those who simply loved the Mass of Pius V. At the time there were three places in the diocese that offered this Mass. Those parishioners who did not like this shift were forced to find another parish.

Bishop Brown, in respecting the priest who was there, allowed this situation to continue until the priest reached retirement age, and then he decided that the conditions for permitting the Mass of Pius V under the Ecclesia Dei indult did not exist. That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself. Therefore, according to the directives of *Ecclesia Dei *and in accordance with the mandate of the bishop to regulate the liturgy in his diocese, he choose to replace the Mass of Pius V with the Mass of Paul VI – but in Latin.

It is true that they have an administrator, and they will soon have a new administrator.

BTW, the Mass of Pius V is still offered at Mission San Juan Capistrano which is 28 miles away from St. Mary’s by the Sea.

Deacon Ed
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Deacon Ed:
Since I am somewhat familiar with this situation (I’m in the Diocese of Orange) let me offer some comments.

First, the parishioners at this parish screamed bloody murder when the former pastor was assigned there and set about changing everything in the church. Eventually, he attracted a group of people from the central part of the diocese who objected to the changes following Vatican II. There were also those who simply loved the Mass of Pius V. At the time there were three places in the diocese that offered this Mass. Those parishioners who did not like this shift were forced to find another parish.

Bishop Brown, in respecting the priest who was there, allowed this situation to continue until the priest reached retirement age, and then he decided that the conditions for permitting the Mass of Pius V under the Ecclesia Dei indult did not exist. That is, this group of people constantly lashed out at the teachings of Vatican II and at the bishop himself. Therefore, according to the directives of *Ecclesia Dei *and in accordance with the mandate of the bishop to regulate the liturgy in his diocese, he choose to replace the Mass of Pius V with the Mass of Paul VI – but in Latin.

It is true that they have an administrator, and they will soon have a new administrator.

BTW, the Mass of Pius V is still offered at Mission San Juan Capistrano which is 28 miles away from St. Mary’s by the Sea.

Deacon Ed
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Forgive me, Deacon, if I don’t see Bishop Brown’s actions as innocuous as you do. Allow me to relate a story to you about my experience with Tod Brown:

I’m a student at UCI and every September the Catholic community holds a “Mass on the Plaza”, which is a large mass held outdoors on the Engineering school plaza to welcome new students and open the new academic year. Last year Bishop Brown presided along with our Chaplain. Everything went fine for me up until communion time. I was in the Bishop’s line and when I got up to him, I opened my mouth to receive, as I always receive on the tongue. He gave me a dirty look that could have killed an elephant from 100 feet and literally threw the host in my mouth. I walked away very upset because for the life of me I couldn’t figure out what on earth I had done to so badly offend the Bishop that he would act in such a manner. I spent the rest of the night wondering, what I had done? He was all smiles with everybody else but when he got to me…? The only things I did differently from everybody else were that I received on the tongue and I was wearing a chapel veil. At the time I wasn’t aware of the whole controversy at St Mary’s and the tension between the Bishop and the TLM community but I guess I made the mistake of ID’ing myself as a “trad” by what I did (even though I’ve never been to a TLM in my life).

Please don’t tell me that I’m overreacting or misinterpreting what happened or dismiss me as another “trad” whining about their Bishop (as some people on this forum like to do to people when these issues come up); one cannot get treated the way I was without getting the sense that that person has a problem with you. Knowing what I know now about the situation in OC leaves me in no doubt that Bishop Brown harbors some hostility towards “traditionalists” and this incident was just a manifestation of it.

BTW…Please don’t make light of the fact that the only other indult is at San Juan Capistrano. Not every person in OC is married to their car. I don’t own one so getting to SJC would be a real pain, esp with the bus schedule on sundays:(
 
Jades, you and people in your situation will be in my prayers. I consider myself lucky that I am in a diocese that allows a TLM at and a reverent Novus Ordo(like the ones St Marys used to offer) in peace, part of the reason why I moved to where I am. Its sad many people have no choice, and have to face opression by the very figures that are supposed to support them.
 
In the immortal words of Rodney King, “Can’t we all get along?”

Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Romans 8:35
 
Blech, somehow the radio button switched to No as I was heade to submit - I intended my answer to be a Yes, and don’t see a way to change my vote to correct it other than by posting this clarification, especially since I’m in a diocese where priests who express an interest in offering an indult (especially if in suburban areas) are punished
 
The best way to destroy an institution is to first destroy its heritage.
I wish I could remember who said that.
There are those that not only want a new Mass but also want a new church.
 
tom.wineman said:
The best way to destroy an institution is to first destroy its heritage.

I wish I could remember who said that.
There are those that not only want a new Mass but also want a new church.
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Which (if we believe Father Deacon Ed’s comments, which I do) happened when this ,now retired, priest came into St Mary’s by the Sea and started celebrating the Mass of Pius V and other changes thereby chasing away those who had attened there before.
 
Didn’t the Diocese of Burlington forbid any priest (visiting included) from saying the mass facing the Tabernacle?
 
I can only see justification in disallowing Tridentine Mass if it serves as a breeding ground for “right-wing” dissent and promotes or encourages animosity towards the local Ordinary, the Second Vatican Council itself, and the Pope.

A traditional parish community, whether offering the Tridentine Mass or a tradition-minded Novus Ordo Mass (my parish offers the Novus Ordo in Latin, facing east, with chant and polyphony) should be in full communion with their bishop and respect him, even if they disagree with him or may be persecuted by them or is not supportive of them.

The Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship stipulated in a clarification that while a local bishop may legislate how the Eucharist is to be distributed normally in his diocese, that NOBODY is to be denied the Eucharist if they choose to receive kneeling. It is a gross abuse if this is done anywhere by anyone.

It is quite true that people are harrassed in some places even for receiving on the tongue. A few years ago, at a parish near my home, a priest once slapped my mother’s back in disgust with his hand after he (by his own clumsiness) touched my mother’s tongue while giving her the Host. My mother, who is not English-speaking, was approached by another parishioner who witnessed what the priest had done. They approached the priest after Mass together, and instead of apologizing, he said that my mother should see fit to receive in the hand while he was the celebrant of the Mass. Pray for him!

With regards to the Bishop of Orange. Pray for him to experience a change of heart and realize the harm he is inflicting to members within his own flock. The Vatican is probably inundated with abuse reports since Cardinal Arinze’s Congregation encouraged Catholics everywhere to report abuses that were not being corrected by their local bishops. I am sure they are not ignoring people and that they are doing their best in an overwhelmingly difficult time for the Church.

Nature will take its course, albeit very slowly. Liberal dioceses and religious orders are dying while traditional and orthodox ones are flourishing. Retiring liberal bishops are being replaced by more orthodox ones. Former arch-liberal dioceses that were hotbeds for dissent are turning into centers of orthodoxy and true Catholic culture thanks to effective leadership and governance by their new bishops (take, for example, Chicago).

What we can do is to pray and pray more and harder. Pray for vocations, since they are the future of the Church. Pray and support seminarians (more and more are very orthodox). Pray for an end to Communion in the hand and for the Vatican to recognized the harm it has caused (directly and indirectly). Pray for the Pope, and for bishops and priests.
 
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EJ79:
A few years ago, at a parish near my home, a priest once slapped my mother’s back in disgust with his hand after he (by his own clumsiness) touched my mother’s tongue while giving her the Host. My mother, who is not English-speaking, was approached by another parishioner who witnessed what the priest had done. They approached the priest after Mass together, and instead of apologizing, he said that my mother should see fit to receive in the hand while he was the celebrant of the Mass. Pray for him!
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I hope you guided your mother to bring up assult charges on this Priest. This man needs more than prayer, the law needs to deal with him.
I don’t care what the situation was or even who’s fault the touching of the tongue was, he assulted her by slapping her (if I understand you correctly).
If a man would slap a woman, for any reason, he has broken the law. If he would slap your mother for a such a thing, what else might he do?
If this had been a Priest that my mother went to, he would have been talking to a Police Officer after dismissing her kind handling of the situation.
 
ByzCath, I do not know why you slam, and yes I mean slam Catholics who prefer traditional liturgy every chance you get, again all the while your liturgy has been largely left intact.

Again, let me fill in some background on Fr. Johnson. Yes, when he came to St Marys by the Sea, he made changes, he had the altar rails put back in and distributed communion at the rail, other than that, no changes. Nothing he changed was a rejection of Vatican II, nothing at all, and again, he did not celebrate the Tridentine mass untill he got the permission of his Bishop in 93 or so. So between 79 to 98, he only celebrated the Novus Ordo. If he chased anyone away, it is probably they could not accept orthodoxy, not because some of the then fairly minor changes he did to how the mass was celebrated(again everythig was clearly within the guidelines).

Being a Byzantine Catholc, you of all people should know by history how ill treatment of Byzantine Catholics chased them out of the church 100 years ago. What Bishop Brown is doing now to these traditional and traditional leaning Catholics is no different than what the infamous Abp. Ireland of the St. Paul archdiocese did to Easteren Catholics.

I have no idea why you feel the need to bash people who prefer the traditional mass, but I suggest you get sympathy for the plight that so many Catholics are going though right now because of Bishops like Bp. Brown.
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ByzCath:
Which (if we believe Father Deacon Ed’s comments, which I do) happened when this ,now retired, priest came into St Mary’s by the Sea and started celebrating the Mass of Pius V and other changes thereby chasing away those who had attened there before.
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Fogny:
Mr Greenhut is very observant and spot on, and I don’t know if he is a Catholic.

“This is standard fare, however, in the bitter war that is waged behind the scenes within the church. In reality, there are two churches co-existing uncomfortably together. There’s the traditional Catholic Church, with its unwavering support for church traditions and theology.”

I do not want to hear that Liberal Bishops such as Brown,Levada, or others have the right to wage a silent war on traditional catholics,their actions speak loudly.

Fogny
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ABp. Levada is not “liberal.”
 
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