Bishop says Catholics should kneel, receive communion on tongue

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If someone cannot kneel they have never been required to even when I was serving back in the 50’s.

Come on folks get real.
While this is true I have see people who judge others with out knowing or caring why they are doing something. Some think that if the Church says kneel then everyone should kneel no matter what.

But it does work both ways, many people judge those who chose to receive kneeling today.

If the Church is going to restore kneeling as the norm for reception of the Eucharist in the Latin Church then altar railings must come back.
 

Yes the bishop was speaking of the Latin rite . Keep something in mind ByzCath—much has been said about the Easterns recovering their own traditions — yet there is a double standard from the Eastern side – when it comes to us Latins recovering ours.
Particularly when there are still so many of us alive for whom that tradition is genuine - it’s what we grew up with. Brother David, I am learning about Eastern Catholicism but you have to understand that my friend Palmas and I grew up in New Orleans where the overwhelming majority of people were Latin Rite Catholics. It was not at all unusual to ride public transportation and see people making the sign of the cross when we went in front of any of the numerous Catholic churches which line the main thoroughfares. Hey, I still genuflect upon entering the pew and upon leaving the pew - in homage to Him whether He is on the side altar and not on the main.
 
Amen! Amen! Amen! Bring back the altar railings! They tore out the choir loft in my cathedral back in the 60s and rebuilt it in the early 90s. They can bring back the altar rails too!

feastofsaints.com/jesusmylord.htm

That pretty much sums it up for me.
 
Many Catholics have this archaeological view that whatever was (often ALLEGEDLY) done in the “early Church” is always best.

Pius XII demolished that error in Mediator Dei some 60 years ago.

Communion was being received on the tongue in the west in most locales at LEAST by the 6th century, which of course is in that Medieval Period some Catholics have been taught to despise.

As for kneeling, there is no evidence one way or the other that early Christians received standing, sitting, reclining, kneeling, whatever. The evidence that does exist is inconclusive and tenuous at best.

The fact is that kneeling WAS widespread in many locales the west by at least the 8th century.

8th to the 20th…not enough for some, plenty for others.

Side note, but important: for centuries and centuries the Missal and Ritual didn’t say how to receive Communion. It developed organically in each locale, and over time kneeling became the universal norm in the west.

It’s only a comparatively recent development that every last posture must be rubrically defined and those who dare question are accused of schism or worse.
 
Many Catholics have this archaeological view that whatever was (often ALLEGEDLY) done in the “early Church” is always best.

Pius XII demolished that error in Mediator Dei some 60 years ago.

Communion was being received on the tongue in the west in most locales at LEAST by the 6th century, which of course is in that Medieval Period some Catholics have been taught to despise.

As for kneeling, there is no evidence one way or the other that early Christians received standing, sitting, reclining, kneeling, whatever. The evidence that does exist is inconclusive and tenuous at best.

The fact is that kneeling WAS widespread in many locales the west by at least the 8th century.

8th to the 20th…not enough for some, plenty for others.

Side note, but important: for centuries and centuries the Missal and Ritual didn’t say how to receive Communion. It developed organically in each locale, and over time kneeling became the universal norm in the west.

It’s only a comparatively recent development that every last posture must be rubrically defined and those who dare question are accused of schism or worse.
But keep in mind that customs have the force of law. I believe it was Pope Innocent III who said even the Pope could be legally disobeyed if he tried to change a custom.
 
Ah but there is the rub.

Is returning to pre-Vatican II recovering tradition? Especially when something such as reception of Communion in the Hand is something that was done in the early Church?
If we are to pick a date when the Church was “perfect” as to what traditions we are to recover then all needs to be changed to reflect that, yet the Church was never “perfect” in that way.

The reason I brought up that this is only towards Latin Catholics is the choice of words used. It says “Catholics should” which is imprecise language. It implies all Catholics should do this when that is not the case.

My main point though is that this only the bishop’s opinion and many have other opinion which are just as valid as his.

Since you brought in recovering tradition to reflect the “early” Church — you left out “sitting” for communion. By some peoples “thought” — that would also be “tradition” of the early Church along side communion in the hand. Sitting and being served Holy Communion like a meal at our own dinner table. So it seems – it comes down to what side is being rubbed.

At to the bishop’s choice of words – I didn’t have a problem knowing that he was referring to the Latin rite
 
But keep in mind that customs have the force of law. I believe it was Pope Innocent III who said even the Pope could be legally disobeyed if he tried to change a custom.
Here’s the quotes I was referring to. I am going to include several paragraphs because it is very interesting when we consider what has happened since Vatican II.

The following was written by Cardinal De Torquemeda, who was given the title Defender of the Faith by Pope Eugene IV.
CARDINAL DE TORQUEMADA:
“Although it clearly follows from the circumstances that the Pope can err at times, and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not,… it is said in the Acts of the Apostles: ‘One ought to obey God rather than man’; therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truth of the sacraments, or the commands of the natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over (despiciendus)…” (Summa de Ecclesia [1489], founded upon the doctrine formulated and defined by the Council
of Florence and defined by Pope Eugenius IV and Pope Pius IV)

"By disobedience, the Pope can separate himself from Christ despite the fact that he is head of the Church, for above all, the unity of the Church is dependent upon its relationship with Christ. The Pope can separate himself from Christ either by disobeying the law of Christ, or by commanding something that is against the divine or natural law. by doing so, the Pope separates himself from the body of the Church because this body is itself linked to Christ by obedience. In this way, the Pope would, without doubt, fall into schism… "He would do that if he did not observe that which the Universal Church observes in basing herself on the Tradition of the Apostles, or if he did not observe that which has been ordained for the whole world by the universal councils or by the authority of the Apostolic See.

Especially is this true with regard to the divine liturgy, as, for example, if he did not wish personally to follow the universal customs and rites of the Church. This same holds true for other aspects of the liturgy in a very general fashion, as would be the case of one unwilling to celebrate with priestly vestments, or in consecrated places, or with candles, or if he refused to make the sign of the cross as other priests do, or other similar things which, in a general way, relate to perpetual usage in conformity with the Canons.

"By thus separating himself apart, and with obstinacy, from the
observance of the universal customs and rites of the Church, the Pope could fall into schism. The conclusion is sound and the premises are not in doubt, since just as the Pope can fall into heresy, so also he can disobey and transgress with obstinacy that which has been established for the common order of the church. Thus it is that [Pope] Innocent [III] states (De Consuetudine) that it is necessary to obey a Pope in all things as long as he does not himself go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the church, he ought not to be obeyed…
" (Summa de Ecclesia [1489])
 
Ah but there is the rub.

Is returning to pre-Vatican II recovering tradition? Especially when something such as reception of Communion in the Hand is something that was done in the early Church?

If we are to pick a date when the Church was “perfect” as to what traditions we are to recover then all needs to be changed to reflect that, yet the Church was never “perfect” in that way.

The reason I brought up that this is only towards Latin Catholics is the choice of words used. It says “Catholics should” which is imprecise language. It implies all Catholics should do this when that is not the case.

My main point though is that this only the bishop’s opinion and many have other opinion which are just as valid as his.
No, I think your point is, as it usually is, that the Eastern Churches Rites are better and somehow more pure than is the Latin Rite. Nine times out of ten on this forum we are speaking of the Latin Rite because that is what most of us are. We don’t, at least I don’t, think I should have to specify at every turn which of the rites I am referring to if it is obvious which one we are talking about.

We all know and most of us respect that the Eastern Churches have their own traditions and their liturgy. Some good some bad. I don’t interject comments about them as they do not pertain to me and the subject at hand.

But it galls me when someone, such as yourself, will bring up a criticism of the Latin Rite by implying the Eastern Rite is somehow superior. And that my friend is simply not true.
 
What about people with knee problems who can’t kneel? Will we look disrespectful? If I kneel down I will not be able to get up. I am an old lady with knee and vision problems. Do I need to show up with a cane or a walker?
If you cannot kneel you do not have to and never have had to, despite what those opposed to kneeling would have you believe.
 
Good article from L’Osservatore Romano. Maybe we can bring this Bishop to the U.S.! Here is a quote (but the whole article is good):

“The awareness of the greatness of the eucharistic mystery is demonstrated in a special way by the manner in which the body of the Lord is distributed and received,” the bishop wrote.

In addition to demonstrating true adoration by kneeling, he said, receiving Communion on the tongue also avoids concerns about people receiving the body of Christ with dirty hands or of losing particles of the Eucharist, concerns that make sense if people truly believe in the sacrament.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0800122.htm
I understand that—but if I were to kneel it would take half the congregation to get me back up again. And there are plenty of people in worse shape than me. What’s to be done about them?

Also the priest’s hands touch the Eucharist—so particles might be lost that way.
 
I understand that—but if I were to kneel it would take half the congregation to get me back up again. And there are plenty of people in worse shape than me. What’s to be done about them?

Also the priest’s hands touch the Eucharist—so particles might be lost that way.
In the Tridentine Rite, the priest takes very elaborate steps to avoid this.

Thats why for most of the Mass he keeps his fingers pressed together so he touches nothing besides the Eucharist and doesnt risk losing particles. Afterwards, his fingers are washed with water and wine, which is drunk, so that any stray particles are consumed. The cups are similarly purified. Theres lots more besides this, but this should give you some idea of how serious this is taken.
 
The Roman Catholic Church is in far greater need of recovering it’s traditions than the Eastern Church. Within the Eastern Rite their are some complaints of Latinizations (none of which are irreverant), but within the Roman Church we need to purge ourselves of Modernizations, Liberalizations, Protestantizations, Irreverantizations, Secularizations etc.
Code:
                  Some mandates we should have
1.Priests must regularly inform the Congregation that reception of Holy Communion is only for Catholics who are in State of Grace. Therefore the Sacrament of Penance must be offered more regularly in most Church’s.
2.Eliminate Holy Communion in the hand and restore communion rails.
3.All Churches to offer regular Eucharistic Adoration.
4.Encourage traditional devotions such as the Rosary, Stations of the Cross.
5.All Churches must have kneelers.
I could go on for hours but that's just a little start.
 
… Is returning to pre-Vatican II recovering tradition? Especially when something such as reception of Communion in the Hand is something that was done in the early Church?

… My main point though is that this only the bishop’s opinion and many have other opinion which are just as valid as his.
From “Rethinking Communion in the Hand” by Jude Huntz:

A more rigorous study of the available evidence from Church History and from the writings of the Fathers does not support the assertion that Communion in the hand was a universal practice which was gradually supplanted and eventually replaced by the practice of Communion on the tongue.

Rather, the facts seem to point to a different conclusion.

Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461), already in the fifth century, is an early witness of the traditional practice. In his comments on the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John, he speaks of Communion in the mouth as the current usage: "One receives in the mouth what one believes by faith."2 The Pope does not speak as if he were introducing a novelty, but as if this were a well-established fact.

A century and a half later, but still three centuries before the practice (according to the popular account reviewed above) was supposedly introduced, Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604) is another witness. In his dialogues (Roman 3, c. 3) he relates how Pope St. Agapito performed a miracle during the Mass, after having placed the Body of the Lord into someone’s mouth. We are also told by John the Deacon of this Pope’s manner of giving Holy Communion.

These witnesses are from the fifth and the sixth centuries. How can one reasonably say that Communion in the hand continued as the official practice until the tenth century? How can one claim that giving Communion on the tongue is a medieval invention?

…So St. Basil (330-379) says clearly that to receive Communion by one’s own hand is only permitted in times of persecution or, as was the case with monks in the desert, when no deacon or priest was available to give it. “It is not necessary to show that it does not constitute a grave fault for a person to communicate with his own hand in a time of persecution when there is no priest or deacon” (Letter 93, my emphasis). The text implies that to receive in the hand under other circumstances, outside of persecution, would be a grave fault.3 The saint based his opinion on the custom of the solitary monks, who reserved the Blessed Sacrament in their dwellings, and, in the absence of the priest or deacon, gave themselves Communion.

In his article on “Communion” in the Dictionaire d’Archeologie Chretienne, LeClerq declares that the peace of Constantine was bringing the practice of Communion in the hand to an end. This reaffirms for us the reasoning of St. Basil that it was persecution that created the alternative of either receiving by hand or not receiving at all.

…Thus the Council of Rouen, which met in 650, says, “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layman or laywomen but only in their mouths.”

…Of course, the promoters of “Communion in the hand” generally make little mention of the evidence we have brought forward. They do, however, make constant use of the text attributed to St. Cyril of Jerusalem, who lived in the fourth century at the same time as St. Basil.

Henri LeClerq summarized things as follows: “Saint Cyril of Jerusalem recommended to the faithful that on presenting themselves to receive Communion, they should have the right hand extended, with their fingers together, supported by the left hand, and with the palm a little bit concave; and at the moment in which the Body of Christ was deposited in the hand, the communicant would say: Amen.”

There is more to this text than just the above, however. It also goes on to propose the following: “Sanctify your eyes with contact with the Holy Body . . . . When your lips are still wet, touch your hand to your lips, and then pass you hand over your eyes, your forehead and your other senses, to sanctify them.” This rather odd (or even superstitious? Irreverent?) recommendation has caused scholars to question the authenticity of this text. Some think that perhaps there has been an interpolation, or that it is really the saint’s successor who wrote it.

It is not impossible that the text is really the work of the Patriarch John, who succeeded Cyril in Jerusalem. But this John was of suspect orthodoxy. This we know from the correspondence of St. Epiphanius, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine. So, in favor of Communion in the hand we have a text of dubious origin and questionable content. And on the other hand, we have reliable witnesses, including two great popes, that placing the Sacred Host in the mouth of the communicant was already common and unremarkable in at least the fifth century.

catholic-pages.com/mass/inhand.asp
 
No, I think your point is, as it usually is, that the Eastern Churches Rites are better and somehow more pure than is the Latin Rite. Nine times out of ten on this forum we are speaking of the Latin Rite because that is what most of us are. We don’t, at least I don’t, think I should have to specify at every turn which of the rites I am referring to if it is obvious which one we are talking about.

We all know and most of us respect that the Eastern Churches have their own traditions and their liturgy. Some good some bad. I don’t interject comments about them as they do not pertain to me and the subject at hand.

But it galls me when someone, such as yourself, will bring up a criticism of the Latin Rite by implying the Eastern Rite is somehow superior. And that my friend is simply not true.
Never made this claim. You should not put words into my mouth. I believe this goes against the forum rules actually.

See IMPORTANT FORUM INFO: Please Read!

Specifically…
  • It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
My problem is when people say “all Catholics should” and then do not qualify it in a proper manner as it does not really apply to all Catholics.

If you truly did know me you would know how wrong your judgment is. After all I am joining a Latin rite religious order and there is much in the Latin rite that I love. But unlike many I have to perspective that the Latin rite is not the Catholic Church but is only a part of it (yes a large part but still a part).
 
From “Rethinking Communion in the Hand” by Jude Huntz:
Brennan,
Thank you for actually attempting to answer the question I posed without making any personal judgments about me.

Unfortunately I am off to a three day retreat on the Carmelite Rule so I will not be able to read this and give it the time it needs until I return at the end of the week, but, once again, thank you and I will take a look at it.
 
If you go to a thread which is clearly Roman Rite in nature and start making comments that a reasonable person could well conclude reveal your oft-repeated sentiment that the so-called traditional practices of the Roman Rite really aren’t that traditional and certainly not as traditional as the Eastern Rites (which YOU tend to speak of monolithically, ironically)…well…develop a thicker skin. Because the pattern always is someone calls you on your traditional Roman Rite thinly veiled bashing and then you cry about Forum Rules, usually with a convenient link for the sake of the ignorant.
 
What about people with knee problems who can’t kneel? Will we look disrespectful? If I kneel down I will not be able to get up. I am an old lady with knee and vision problems. Do I need to show up with a cane or a walker?
Usually the priest should bring communion to you. Often there is designated seating, or you choose a seat in the front row to make this easier for him (or for some EMHC).

However, let me ask:

If after receiving, you were to be healed of your physical pains… would you remain seated or standing? What would be your choice of posture in the presence of the Lord?

Yes, prostrate on the ground is also an accceptable answer.😉

.
 
Brennan,
Thank you for actually attempting to answer the question I posed without making any personal judgments about me.

Unfortunately I am off to a three day retreat on the Carmelite Rule so I will not be able to read this and give it the time it needs until I return at the end of the week, but, once again, thank you and I will take a look at it.
Okay, sounds good.
 
I joined the Catholic Church Easter 1999 at the age of 27. Coming from a Pentecostal/Methodist background. I have been wanting to kneel for SO long. When I see people who do I LONG. In my past churches, we knelt for a SYMBOL. Reading the article here in Catholic Answers the reason for standing “Many liturgists today believe that kneeling is alien to modern culture and is an unsuitable posture for modern “democratic” man, even when worshiping.”. Full link to this article is catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312fea1.asp
The hardest for me to accept is many saying they want to stand, why can’t they stand? I cry, I want to kneel, why can’t I kneel? Some have said go ahead. That is not what is to be allowed. According to this same article, if someone kneels to receive, they are not to be refused but they ARE to be instructed on the “norm” of standing. It is concidered disobident to kneel to receive.

For the poster with bad knees. If the change were to happen, I feel for you. My dear mother in law would never be able to either. She can walk slowly but because her walk is so slow she sits in the front and it is brought to her. I have seen some that bow very deeply. For someone judging you for NOT kneeling, that is their wrong. I have watched people get upset over someone using a handicap tag in their car with no visible handicap. Who are we to know what condition they may have that they can not walk the lenghth of a parking lot. If the norm became to kneel and you came up and showed in your face and with as deep a bow as you can muster without extra help your reverence, God bless you!! God knows the heart.

If standing is to remain, I would like to see the ones like myself with the want to kneel to be able to without being “disobedient”.

God bless! Prayers. Standing or kneeling, LOVE your Lord.
 
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