Bishop scared me

[vsedriver]

It is what he said

you took it out of context, including leaving out the introduction which explains the reason why the Pope phrased his statement the way he did. You knew exactly what those few sentences sounded like and not what they really meant.

that is deceitful of you.

 

[Teek]

My first reaction when I read these words was to pause and consider my own relationship with the Holy Trinity.

I think that was our Holy Father’s intention, to get us to more deeply consider our relationship with the Living God – our relationship with a real Person! Not just some vague idea.

Very true! I know a lot of people who are very comfortable with God the Son, but are uncertain about God the Holy Spirit, and feel that God the Father is distant and imposing.

My friends who struggle with God in the person of the Father feel like their relationship with their own fathers inform their comfort with God the Father. The Holy Spirit can seem intangible, even though through the Sacraments He so very close to us.

I used to struggle with feeling close to Jesus, who many find to be the most easily approachable. I had a wonderful, caring Father. The priest that taught my First Communion class was so in love with the Holy Spirit that I’m sure I’m not the only child who passed through his care that developed the same comfort and love. But I had a difficult time being accepted when I was a kid—people at my school called me retarded because my dad was in a wheelchair. I sort of closed my self off from others for a long time. So I would picture, as a kid, Jesus surrounded by children and welcoming them, but I always kept myself on the edge of the crowd, in case He didn’t really want me, too. I thought it was enough for someone as unimportant as me to watch from afar and see how much He loves all of us and know I was one of the ones He loved. But He offers us so much more than being one of the crowd.

It took teaching religion to 4th graders much later to recognize that, though. One of them didn’t like the parable of the Good Shepherd because she thought she was one of the good sheep, and so Jesus was off rejoicing over the other sheep coming back and preferred the lost one to 99 of her. The other kids agreed! I was telling them that, no! Each of them, every time they get into trouble is the lost sheep, and Jesus is rejoicing about bringing them to safety.

And the whole thing clicked and I realized that, when Jesus said “Let the little children come unto me,” that He was not just talking to others that didn’t understand children, but that He was talking to me, because I was holding myself on the fringe of the crowd and not running to Him and His mercy. I was preventing one of His children from coming to Him—myself.

Thank you @Gertabelle

 

[Teek]

For anyone who actually cares what my intentions are, because I am stubbornly holding onto the belief that there are some that actually do…

The Holy Father does encourage prayer to the Trinity. I didn’t quote that part because there wasn’t anything in it that was concerning—not because I was hiding it. I was quoting the part that had me concerned. He said to draw close to the three persons of the Trinity, but he literally says that “there is no God,” and reiterated it by saying “there is no God spray.” I took that to mean that the unity of the three is the vague idea in the clouds, that he dismissed that notion, that there are three.

I read it in context and was still concerned—not that he encouraged knowing the three persons, but because he states that there is no God, there is just three persons—(I added the “just” in this statement to try to convey what I understood, not to change his words or claim that the Holy Father said “just.”)

My concern came from what he said. I hope it isn’t what he meant. I pray that it isn’t. But it is what he said that shook me up. Not a commentary. Not an agenda. Not ill will.

God gave us all different gifts and different ways of seeing the world. Some people aren’t concerned with details. Some people are. Some people trust easily, some don’t. We are all unique and uniquely valuable. For this reason I asked for other people’s view points. Because I know most people will not agree with me, and I value their viewpoints.

Some people get concerned and throw everything good out with their concern. Some people get concerned and dismiss the concern. Some people don’t get concerned easily. Some people get concerned and want to understand and so turn to other Catholics, who they feel they can trust, to try to understand, and ask for help.

I am very, very grateful to and thankful for the people on this thread who have tried to help me see a different angle so that I can overcome my concern.

 

[jdavani]

at no point does pope francis say god doesn’t exist, he says that “god spray does not exist.” he’s trying to make a specific point about the nature of the trinity.

remember how jesus tells us to change and become like little children, maybe we should do that and not think so much

 

[Teek]

Sorry to disagree with some of you here, but I think these words are profound and deeply challenging. And if I had a Buddhist friend who tried to twist these words to mean the Pope was a Buddhist, I would rejoice at the opportunity for evangelization and immediately untwist Pope Francis’s words and challenge my friend with them!

I wish that I had been prepared so that I could have. I was stunned by the words and said he wouldn’t have said that.

I came here to “untwist Pope Francis’ words” since I am unable to do so with what I have to offer.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Teek]

at no point does pope francis say god doesn’t exist, he says that “god spray does not exist.” he’s trying to make a specific point about the nature of the trinity.

OK. You can argue that he did not mean it, would not mean it, cannot mean it. You cannot say that he does not say it.

He did say it, and he said it twice.

“But God does not exist: Do not be shocked! So God does not exist! There is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, they are persons, they are not some vague idea in the clouds … This God spray does not exist! The three persons exist!”

 

[Teek]

I would say that it’s a translation from another language, spoken by someone in their particular linguistic idiom.

If I were speaking in English, I might say it differently. But then, if I did that, then I wouldn’t be ‘quoting’ so much as ‘re-expressing’, now would I?

That is an excellent point. If that is a mistranslation, then someone needs to check the credentials of the translator because anyone translating those words should have to pause, do a double take and make sure they had it right. That should be easy to check, but I do not know Italian.

 

[Teek]

Do you honestly think the Pope is denying the existence of God? He wants people to understand more deeply the three persons of the Trinity. To relate to them in a personal way. Not just think of God as some aura that flies around in the mist. That’s all I got from the statement.

I don’t know why it scares you. I’m sorry, but I just don’t understand.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It scares me because he didn’t say that a certain concept of God doesn’t exist. He could have so easily made it clear.

Do I honestly think the Pope is denying the existence of God? No. I do not. He definitely believes the three persons are God.

God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all strictly one being in three hypostases. There is a misunderstanding of the Trinity that considers the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the “same substance”. It is a misunderstanding that appears to arise from the use of the term “persons” in defining the Trinity instead of “hypostases.” The term is correct, in and of itself, but the nuances that we bring into our understanding of it from our general use of the word “persons” can lead us to wrong conclusions.

I don’t know what the Holy Father believes. I can only know what he says. What he said is that there is no God, no God smear, but three persons.

I only know what I have learned from the Church. The Church teaches that it is dangerous to lean too far into “three separate”, or too far into “one unity.” They must be kept in balance: Trinity in Unity; Unity in Trinity. There is one Godhead.

There is a Godhead. There is a God, one, that is the three separate hypostases in unity.

The Athanasius Creed begins…

Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is
necessary that he hold the catholic [apostolic/universal] faith, which
except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will
perish eternally.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in
Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For
there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy
Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.

(I did not post the entire creed for brevity, because this is the part relevant. It is not an attempt to deceive or lead astray. There is more to the prayer! Here is the link:

https://www.ewtn.com/library/sources/athanasi.txt

 

[Teek]

I think it’s not exactly what you presented as a direct conversation that a bishop asks you and you say and he says “God does not exist”. The Pope said “This God spray does not exist”.

What do you say when a Bishop says this?

‘But do you believe?’: 'Yes! Yes! '; ‘What do you believe in?’; ‘In God!’; ‘But what is God for you?’; ‘God, God’. But God does not exist: Do not be shocked! So God does not exist! There is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, they are persons, they are not some vague idea in the clouds … This God spray does not exist! The three persons exist!”

That is not at all what I presented, nor was it what I intended to present.

Your quote is incomplete. You can argue about what he meant. You can argue about context and how it could be interpreted. It is indisputable that he said “There is no God.”

 

[Teek]

These ideas I stand by . But he really did not say that God does not exist! You interpreted it as such. Be realistic.

It is a direct quote of his words. You said exactly what my response was to the Buhdist person challenging me on the Church’s teaching on the Trinity.

It was a direct quote of his words.

I wish it wasn’t.

 

[Teek]

Right on! 100% tracking what he’s saying.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure which post/poster you are agreeing with.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Even direct quotes have to be taken in context. The example I use is a direct quote from John Kennedy: “Let me say this about that. If we are to succeed, we must not fail”.

Now that is an honest and direct quote from him. But because I did not give you the context behind it, it sounds like the ramblings of an idiot. But Kennedy was far from an idiot.

 

[Teek]

What the “bishop” said is a rhetorical device that I have heard before (and I’ve used it myself) to address certain misunderstandings about God. For example, my daughter once expressed doubts about the existence of a God who is like an old man up in the sky. I replied “I don’t believe in that God either.” Or to the argument that if there is a God, he wouldn’t have created such an evil world. “I don’t believe in that God either.”

Worded that way, the meaning is obvious, helpful, and clear. And very effective.

you took it out of context, including leaving out the introduction which explains the reason why the Pope phrased his statement the way he did. You knew exactly what those few sentences sounded like and not what they really meant.

that is deceitful of you.

It was done for the sake of brevity, not deception. It was the part that was upsetting. The sources are there, the context is easy to find.

 

[Teek]

remember how jesus tells us to change and become like little children, maybe we should do that and not think so much

He gave us rational minds so we can know and be known.

Wisdom, knowledge, understanding: God’s gifts because He wants us to excercise them.

 

[Kei]

Some of it sounds difficult to understand what they were getting at.

But when you write down something that you’re saying in person, ad libbing, it can sound a little goofy.

 

[ChunkMonk]

In no way do I mean this as a criticism of the Holy Father, but I don’t think he is the type to be all that interested in challenging the upper-level theology of the Trinity. It seems way more likely that he is talking about an intimite relationship with God, rather than discussing theological definitions. That seems to be the type of “dry” stuff in religion that he largely ignores.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Based on your detailed response, I am curious as to what motivated you to start thinking so deeply about a short remark by our Pope. Hypostases, etc. Did you study theology, or philosophy, or come to the Church from some other religious tradition where you read up on this a lot and think about it?

I myself never heard of the term “hypostases” till I hit this forum, nor did I ever feel the use of the term “three persons, one God” was misleading or difficult in any way or led me to a wrong conclusion.

I accept that not everyone’s mind works like mine and that people have a wide variety of scholarly interests, concerns, and paths they take to the Church. I was just born into it, myself, and I never had a need to think about hypostases or some of the other stuff that has come up on other threads when we start discussing the Trinity. To me it is a simple concept. Believe and there is no danger involved.

On the other hand, I had some guy try to tell me on some other thread that using the shamrock to represent the Trinity is heresy (given that I am Irish-American and that the shamrock design is present in dozens of Catholic churches as a Trinity representation, I found this to be an idea truly from outer space) and now we have you worrying that it is “dangerous” to not think about the Trinity in exactly the correct way. How can you practice your faith if you are going to see danger under every bush like that? Love the one God, love the three persons of the Trinity, the balance takes care of itself. Simples.

 

[Teek]

Some of it sounds difficult to understand what they were getting at.

But when you write down something that you’re saying in person, ad libbing, it can sound a little goofy.

And you loose inflection and tone of voice which can really be important in communicating your meaning. I watched the sermon in Italian, trying to get the mood of it so I could try to say what he said is fine. I don’t know Italian so it was sort of futile. But I did try.

 

[runningdude]

I feel like this is being taken out of context, and is not fair to the bishop.

It sounds like a snippet of a homily, where the bishop is attempting to simplify complex doctrine. He is stating it is an error to believe God is one distant monothitic being, but three distinct persons who together make up the Godhead, the Trinity.

It is not fair to partially quote only the part where he says “God does not exist” divorced from context, when he is most likely talking figuratively about a common misinterpretation of God’s nature, and the rest of the statement would make that clear.

 

[Spyridon]

@runningdude

Speaking of context, one should read the first few replies of a thread before responding to the OP.

If you had, you’d see this wasn’t an anonymous Bishop but the Pope, and that it was indeed taken out of context.

Just trying to make sure people are on the same page here.

You made very good and valid points.