Bishop Schneider backs the SSPX

[Denise1957]

Sorry, I did not see the question. It was held at the Brigittine Monastery, which in and of itself is small, and there were pictures of the attendees. It was public knowledge.

Okay, thanks. I don’t want to go off on a tangent (or off-topic too much) about chant, so I’ll try to keep this brief.

I think that your Archbishop Sample has celebrated the TLM (complete with Gregorian chant) once or twice at the Brigittine Monastery, is that correct? Archbishop Sample is also a proponent of Gregorian chant himself, right? He wrote a pastoral letter about Sacred Music in January 2013, in which he had this to say about it Gregorian chant:

3a: Gregorian Chant

"Any discussion of the different forms of sacred music start with Gregorian chant. The Second Vatican Council, taking a lead from Pope St. Pius X, articulated that Gregorian chant should have pride of place in the Roman liturgy. Every official liturgical document and every teaching of the popes since then has reiterated this important principle. Here again are the words of Pope St. Pius X:

“Gregorian chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches its movement, inspiration, and savor [from] the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it becomes with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.” "

Link to the Archbishop’s letter:

ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/14/06/15/16-28-51_0.pdf

 

[otjm]

There is only one NFP teaching couple in my entire diocese. They have no current students. So, using this critique of the statistics are we saying that NFP should not be offered as a Catholic way of life?
Or shall we just assume everyone is infertile in my diocese.

Or shall we take stats and observations even further.
This is by far the holiest diocese I have ever seen. My parish offers weekly confession. There is no line. Another parish in my town has no hours for confession but two priests at the parish. I am limited to Tuesday at from 1145-1200 or Saturday at most parishes from 300-330. And no lines… Hmmm At my old parish in a different diocese where the EF was said confession was about a 1-2 hour wait daily.
Why are OF people so much Holier?

I don’t even know which diocese you live in, so your questions seem more rhetorical than anything else.

I have no why idea you ask a question about the holiness of people attending the OF. That is your personal issue, not mine. I am not attacking you, but you seem to be a bit stressed.

My parish has had 24 hour perpetual Adoration for something like 24 years; and people in my parish - like St Paul says - are sinners. 24 hour perpetual Adoration does not make us saints; it only assists us in seeking to become saints; and that awaits the judgment.

Janet E. Smith has given talks to priests - the original one I heard was “Contraception - why not?” and from what I have heard, she is very effective, as many of the priests had little or no training in NFP.

Rather than bemoaning the issue, why don’t you see if you can set up a seminar with her for the priests of your diocese?

 

[otjm]

Okay, thanks. I don’t want to go off on a tangent (or off-topic too much) about chant, so I’ll try to keep this brief.

I think that your Archbishop Sample has celebrated the TLM (complete with Gregorian chant) once or twice at the Brigittine Monastery, is that correct? Archbishop Sample is also a proponent of Gregorian chant himself, right? He wrote a pastoral letter about Sacred Music in January 2013, in which he had this to say about it Gregorian chant:

3a: Gregorian Chant

"Any discussion of the different forms of sacred music start with Gregorian chant. The Second Vatican Council, taking a lead from Pope St. Pius X, articulated that Gregorian chant should have pride of place in the Roman liturgy. Every official liturgical document and every teaching of the popes since then has reiterated this important principle. Here again are the words of Pope St. Pius X:

“Gregorian chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approches its movement, inspiration, and savor [from] the Grogorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it becomes with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.” "

Link to the Archbishop’s letter:

ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/14/06/15/16-28-51_0.pdf

There is also a monk for the diocese of Eastern Oregon who has said the EF; and Abunah Decker has celebrated the Maronite Divine Liturgy there, and several priests have concelebrated the OF there.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t even know which diocese you live in, so your questions seem more rhetorical than anything else.

I have no why idea you ask a question about the holiness of people attending the OF. That is your personal issue, not mine. I am not attacking you, but you seem to be a bit stressed.

My parish has had 24 hour perpetual Adoration for something like 24 years; and people in my parish - like St Paul says - are sinners. 24 hour perpetual Adoration does not make us saints; it only assists us in seeking to become saints; and that awaits the judgment.

Janet E. Smith has given talks to priests - the original one I heard was “Contraception - why not?” and from what I have heard, she is very effective, as many of the priests had little or no training in NFP.

Rather than bemoaning the issue, why don’t you see if you can set up a seminar with her for the priests of your diocese?

I think you missed my point. You state things as if they are fact, then you apply statistics to back up your POV without really taking into account other factors. Thanks for the suggestions. They were not the real issue. I am not stressed per se. But rather applying what I believe to be your logic about the EF to other issues using similar stats like the ones you posted about the attendance of EF masses…

It is kind of a smarmy snarky, sarcastic way to make a point. I apologize for that. Carry on…

 

[ProVobis]

and that under a Cardinal who favored having them.

For the record, it was under Cardinal Bernadin when the indults were first set up in Chicago, St. John Cantius being one of them. I guess even he saw the merits of the Latin Mass in saving parishes from closing altogether. And make no mistake, attendance had been declining severely, except maybe in the Polish and Hispanic churches. You seem to try to find statistics to the contrary.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Second Vatican Council, taking a lead from Pope St. Pius X, articulated that Gregorian chant should have pride of place in the Roman liturgy. …
"Gregorian chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music,

The local Catholic Church in this area plays these guitar type hymns. I haven’t heard any Gregorian chant.

 

[otjm]

I think you missed my point. You state things as if they are fact, then you apply statistics to back up your POV without really taking into account other factors. Thanks for the suggestions. They were not the real issue. I am not stressed per se. But rather applying what I believe to be your logic about the EF to other issues using similar stats like the ones you posted about the attendance of EF masses…

It is kind of a smarmy snarky, sarcastic way to make a point. I apologize for that. Carry on…

I don’t think I missed your point.

I am not saying that my statistics prove correctness. They simply show facts, and when I do, people get upset. It is not my intention to upset people, nor am I attempting to say the are wrong, or less right, or anything else concerning their desire for the EF.

The facts are that in Oregon if you are a Ukrainian rite Catholic, you have one parish in the entire state.

If you are Ruthenian rite Catholic, you have one parish in the entire state.

If you are Maronite rite Catholic, you have one parish in the entire state - as well as an awesome abunah.

And that includes the archdiocese of Oregon and the diocese of Baker, Oregon. Even slimmer pickings than the EF.

It would be fine with me if there was an EF offered in every single one of the 17,000+/- parishes in the US; if nothing else it would sort out in real numbers the support it would have, and we could get on to other considerations. but that isn’t going to happen, so it is up to people who wish to have one, to apply the process laid out in SP. And if they are going to do that, in some circumstances they will need to hire a Canon lawyer - I am not naïve. The process is there.

 

[Denise1957]

The local Catholic Church in this area plays these guitar type hymns. I haven’t heard any Gregorian chant.

I think that it’s just easier to have modern forms of music at Mass, rather than Gregorian chant. For one thing, chant notation is difficult to read (for me, anyway), and it takes a choir who can read the notation and pronounce Latin. Not an easy thing to do. My hope is that more parishes will go to the trouble to implement it, though.

 

[Xantippe]

I think you missed my point. You state things as if they are fact, then you apply statistics to back up your POV without really taking into account other factors. Thanks for the suggestions. They were not the real issue. I am not stressed per se. But rather applying what I believe to be your logic about the EF to other issues using similar stats like the ones you posted about the attendance of EF masses…

It is kind of a smarmy snarky, sarcastic way to make a point. I apologize for that. Carry on…

Well, with the NFP example, there are lots and lots of different ways of studying NFP without taking an in-person class. So, that’s not really a good analogy to the EF–we can’t do a home study EF Mass if we want one the way we can do a home study NFP course.

 

[Denise1957]

I think you missed my point. You state things as if they are fact, then you apply statistics to back up your POV without really taking into account other factors. Thanks for the suggestions. They were not the real issue. I am not stressed per se. But rather applying what I believe to be your logic about the EF to other issues using similar stats like the ones you posted about the attendance of EF masses…

It is kind of a smarmy snarky, sarcastic way to make a point. I apologize for that. Carry on…

I understood what you were saying. Not that I always endorse sarcasm, but what you said made perfect sense, IMO. Sarcasm isn’t always a bad thing.

 

[Elizium23]

I think that it’s just easier to have modern forms of music at Mass, rather than Gregorian chant. For one thing, chant notation is difficult to read (for me, anyway), and it takes a choir who can read the notation and pronounce Latin. Not an easy thing to do. My hope is that more parishes will go to the trouble to implement it, though.

In fact it is so easy to learn and perform Gregorian chant that small children can do it, and enjoy it greatly.

Frankly, I find CCM songs to be the hardest to do of all church repertoire because of their nature, the syncopation and vocal ranges required lend much more to solo or cantor singing than corporate congregational singing, their lack of adequate harmony parts force a baritone/bass like me to strain for the high notes, their lack of organ accompaniment forces directors off the venerable instrument, the expen$ive license agreements suck money from parish coffers, etc. etc.

Whereas Gregorian chant is simple and elegant, requires absolutely no expensive instruments or licenses to sing, can be learned by anyone, even by someone who already knows modern musical notation, and can even be sight-read with a little training.

 

[Denise1957]

In fact it is so easy to learn and perform Gregorian chant that small children can do it, and enjoy it greatly.

Frankly, I find CCM songs to be the hardest to do of all church repertoire because of their nature, the syncopation and vocal ranges required lend much more to solo or cantor singing than corporate congregational singing, their lack of adequate harmony parts force a baritone/bass like me to strain for the high notes, their lack of organ accompaniment forces directors off the venerable instrument, the expen$ive license agreements suck money from parish coffers, etc. etc.

Whereas Gregorian chant is simple and elegant, requires absolutely no expensive instruments or licenses to sing, can be learned by anyone, even by someone who already knows modern musical notation, and can even be sight-read with a little training.

What form of Gregorian chant (hymns/music) does your parish sing on a regular basis?

 

[Elizium23]

What form of Gregorian chant (hymns/music) does your parish sing on a regular basis?

Our Ordinary is all Gregorian chant. Missa de Angelis Gloria, chant Kyrie and Agnus Dei (I can’t recall the settings offhand. Simple ones which match the English Roman Missal settings.)

We have chanted Adore te, Devote, Regina Coeli, Ave Verum Corpus, Pange Lingua, Tantum Ergo.

We could do much more. The Lumen Christi Missal is in our pews.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t think I missed your point.

I am not saying that my statistics prove correctness. They simply show facts, and when I do, people get upset.
The facts are that in Oregon if you are a Ukrainian rite Catholic, you have one parish in the entire state.

If you are Ruthenian rite Catholic, you have one parish in the entire state.

If you are Maronite rite Catholic, you have one parish in the entire state - as well as an awesome abunah.

And that includes the archdiocese of Oregon and the diocese of Baker, Oregon. Even slimmer pickings than the EF.

It would be fine with me if there was an EF offered in every single one of the 17,000+/- parishes in the US; if nothing else it would sort out in real numbers the support it would have, and we could get on to other considerations. but that isn’t going to happen, so it is up to people who wish to have one, to apply the process laid out in SP. And if they are going to do that, in some circumstances they will need to hire a Canon lawyer - I am not naïve. The process is there.

I am not saying that my statistics prove correctness. They simply show facts, and when I do, people get upset.

And I am sure you take that as a sign that what you say is true, not hat what you are saying is frustrating because other conclusions can be had.

And that includes the archdiocese of Oregon and the diocese of Baker, Oregon. Even slimmer pickings than the EF.

There is no archdiocese of Oregon. There is an Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon however. My diocese happens to be under it.

Citing other rites is not really an honest point. The EF is part of the Roman Rite.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It would be fine with me if there was an EF offered in every single one of the 17,000+/- parishes in the US; if nothing else it would sort out in real numbers the support it would have, and we could get on to other considerations. but that isn’t going to happen, so it is up to people who wish to have one, to apply the process laid out in SP. And if they are going to do that, in some circumstances they will need to hire a Canon lawyer - I am not naïve. The process is there.

Practically the process is not there. If a Bishop wishes to not have an EF there will not be an EF. I would not want to be the priest who went “over his head” with that. Seeing as there might be some pretty nasty assignments coming my way…

 

[otjm]

And I am sure you take that as a sign that what you say is true, not hat what you are saying is frustrating because other conclusions can be had.

There is no archdiocese of Oregon. There is an Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon however. My diocese happens to be under it.

Citing other rites is not really an honest point. The EF is part of the Roman Rite.

Having lived in the archdiocese and having attended seminary there, I know the name. Thank you for clearing it up for others.

And actually, it is an extremely honest point. People who belong to those rites have a long, long way to travel if they wish to attend in the rite of their heritage. Much farther than those who wish to attend an EF, in many circumstances. Don’t duck the issue.

The EF is not as widely available as it should be; but it is up to those who wish to have it to form groups as per SP, and pursue the issue. And if they are not capable of getting a group together sufficient to pursue the issue, then they are in the same circumstances as someone from an Eastern rite heritage who does not have that available. The Eucharist and the other sacraments are available widely. Not necessarily in the form some would wish, but they are available.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Having lived in the archdiocese and having attended seminary there, I know the name. Thank you for clearing it up for others.

And actually, it is an extremely honest point. People who belong to those rites have a long, long way to travel if they wish to attend in the rite of their heritage. Much farther than those who wish to attend an EF, in many circumstances. Don’t duck the issue.

The EF is not as widely available as it should be; but it is up to those who wish to have it to form groups as per SP, and pursue the issue. And if they are not capable of getting a group together sufficient to pursue the issue, then they are in the same circumstances as someone from an Eastern rite heritage who does not have that available. The Eucharist and the other sacraments are available widely. Not necessarily in the form some would wish, but they are available.

There are cases, where there is a large enough group to support the EF and it is not allowed. There really is nothing to pursue. Without the backing of a priest who wishes to go against a Bishop it is not going to happen. I have seen it personally happen. I have seen the fight go public as well. It isn’t pretty.

 

[otjm]

Practically the process is not there. If a Bishop wishes to not have an EF there will not be an EF. I would not want to be the priest who went “over his head” with that. Seeing as there might be some pretty nasty assignments coming my way…

I have yet to hear that anyone who has appealed a bishop’s failure to address the issue to Rome was left unaided. You might note that I mentioned the wisdom of hiring a Canon lawyer.

So, practically, the procedure is there. And it doesn’t take undermining the local pastor, either; it just takes seeking out the proper protocol.

Setting up the local pastor for a fall is beyond stupid. And tilting with a bishop who chooses to file the request in the round basket is a waste of time and energy. A good Canon lawyer can put the case together meticulously and thoroughly, and then having made the proper (decorum) request of the bishop, the next step is an articulate, thoroughly documented case presented to the proper dicastery, with someone who is clear-headed enough to find out who exactly in that dicastery to approach, and who to avoid.

Several years ago or more, there was a group in the Midwest who had had it up to here with abuses in the Mass which were more than simply minor fluff. They carefully made their case - including videos of what was going on; then they approached the bishop - who did not particularly give them the time of day, let alone much courtesy, They then presented their case to the proper dicastery, complete with the videos. To put it politely, a new tune was called and the "dance’ changed significantly.

Too often, getting caught up in the immediate battle causes you to lose the war.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I have yet to hear that anyone who has appealed a bishop’s failure to address the issue to Rome was left unaided. You might note that I mentioned the wisdom of hiring a Canon lawyer.

So, practically, the procedure is there. And it doesn’t take undermining the local pastor, either; it just takes seeking out the proper protocol.

Setting up the local pastor for a fall is beyond stupid. And tilting with a bishop who chooses to file the request in the round basket is a waste of time and energy. A good Canon lawyer can put the case together meticulously and thoroughly, and then having made the proper (decorum) request of the bishop, the next step is an articulate, thoroughly documented case presented to the proper dicastery, with someone who is clear-headed enough to find out who exactly in that dicastery to approach, and who to avoid.

Several years ago or more, there was a group in the Midwest who had had it up to here with abuses in the Mass which were more than simply minor fluff. They carefully made their case - including videos of what was going on; then they approached the bishop - who did not particularly give them the time of day, let alone much courtesy, They then presented their case to the proper dicastery, complete with the videos. To put it politely, a new tune was called and the "dance’ changed significantly.

Too often, getting caught up in the immediate battle causes you to lose the war.

You may have yet to hear of it but it does happen. Id be happy to PM you some interesting stuff tomorrow. But it is not suited for public expression on these forums. The practicality of the “protocol” is harmed when one must go against a Bishop’s wishes. Lawyer or not, there are not many priests who want to do that.

 

[Xantippe]

And I am sure you take that as a sign that what you say is true, not hat what you are saying is frustrating because other conclusions can be had.

There is no archdiocese of Oregon. There is an Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon however. My diocese happens to be under it.

Citing other rites is not really an honest point. The EF is part of the Roman Rite.

Then, that’s a fortiori a reason for it to be less available than those rites, if it’s a legitimate variant form of a rite, rather than a rite all by itself.