Bishop urges Christians to call God 'Allah'

[Wolseley]

oh come on, that’s not nice… let’s not stoop to that level- please???

Lock and load.

I don’t want to stoop to that level, either; but that depends on them, not me.

Montalban:

You got something against metric?

LOL!

 

[Philthy]

Bishop urges Christians to call God 'Allah’

Catholic leader believes it would help ease tensions between religions

He is mistaken, sadly mistaken. Perhaps if we were dealing with rational people he might have a point. The problem is NOT that we use different names for the Father of Abraham; the problem is radical Islam, an almost deafening silence by the alleged “moderate Islam” in condemning jihadists, and no functional Islamic authority to denounce their actions.

Briefly put - they couldnt care less what we call Allah - we are infidels and they have no higher purpose in life other than to kill us and thereby enter into martyrdom.

 

[Publisher]

I suggested nothing of the kind. In my posts, I’ve acknowledged that Christians have killed Christians just as Muslims have killed Muslims. And I have made no more excuses for Christians than I have for Muslims.

Moreover, I am not one to blame religion exclusively for the violence done in its name – there are always other, more decisive factors in the outbreak of “religious” violence (political and economic).

It was your attempt to make some point out of the fact that Christians have been killing each other longer than Muslims have been killing each other that led to me to point out the fact that inter-Muslim violence arose near the very beginning of Islamic history whereas inter-Christian violence began only after Christianity had existed for centuries. Make of that difference what you will.

You are right that violence in the name of God is a human issue. It is found not only among Christians and Muslims but also among Jews, Hindus, and even Buddhists (though the latter aren’t even theistic strictly speaking – yet Buddhist monarchs through the ages have slaughtered in the name of upholding the Buddhist Dharma).

What is common to Muslim and Christian experiences is that the joining of religion and the state (which joining has its positive aspects) does very commonly lead to state violence in the name of religion. The joining of state and religion occurs at the very beginning of Islamic history but only in the fourth century of Christianity.

Yes, I very clumsily tried to state the same conclusions…I felt that bringing up “Muslims kill Muslims” in a discussion about “calling God Allah” had no bearing on the discussion, and one more “anti-Muslim” statement. It seemed to me to have no other purpose other than to single out Muslims in respect to them killing other Muslims when “Buddhists kill Buddhists” or “Christians kill Christians”, would have been just as an appropriate statement…IMO it didn’t speak out of the Center of Truth…if I was wrong, I stand corrected.

 

[ilmor]

Allah is what Muslims call their god. We call ours God. Their god, allah, apparently has no problem with killing. God says “thou shalt not kill”. There is no way I will ever call our God allah. Beyond that, I will pray that they find the way to God.

 

[ilmor]

Let’s not all forget what the Catechism states:

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 4

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

in Christ
Steph

Maybe that Catechism requires a second look in light of today’s world.

 

[colliric]

But they are not, for example like Mormons because they are not a subculture of christianity, they are a major culture of their own.

True that, nevertheless it is in the catechism that we should recognize they try to worship the god of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, just like we do.

 

[dessert]

True that, nevertheless it is in the catechism that we should recognize they try to worship the god of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, just like we do.

So are you saying this is a language barrier only?

I work with Hispanics, Latinos so I know about this.

Dessert

 

[Verisimilitude]

True that, nevertheless it is in the catechism that we should recognize they try to worship the god of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, just like we do.

Do you believe the words of allah are the words of God?

 

[paarsurrey]

“thou shalt not kill”.

Hi

Kindly, alongside the above quote, read the following quote from OTBible:

Deu 20:10 When thou drawest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
Deu 20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that are found therein shall become tributary unto thee, and shall serve thee.
Deu 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
Deu 20:13 and when Jehovah thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
Deu 20:14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which Jehovah thy God hath given thee.
Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these peoples, that Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth;
Deu 20:17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Jehovah thy God hath commanded thee;

Thanks

 

[colliric]

Do you believe the words of allah are the words of God?

Nope,

but I recognize that these other people do, as the Catechism points out. they may not believe in the same manner or interpretations as Us, but they do believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Like we do, only they do not have the truth of revelation to guide them properly, only a False prophet and a false holy book.

In fact in like manner, the Jewish people also try to worship the same God too, it’s rather unhelpful not to at least recognize that they do try to worship God in a manner they think is correct. But as I said before the CCC’s section pertaining to Muslims was enough recognition.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The bishop is right - you should say Allah instead of God. While you’re at it you should say the shahada and then go on the haj to Mecca. There are benefits - like freeing up your Sundays for golf.

 

[colliric]

So are you saying this is a language barrier only?

I work with Hispanics, Latinos so I know about this.

Dessert

Nope. It’s a matter of theology mostly, they are incorrect in their interpretation and practices, but it not really going to help saying that they don’t at least try and worship God(who’s name in their language is “Allah”).

I like following Pope Benedict’s leadership on this issue, remember he did go and pray to our God in a Muslim mosque once… And JP2 went down famously to pray to God at the Western Wall.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

To all the well-meaning Christians who think Allah is the God of Jesus Christ

That’s very nice and charitable of you. I think you should resolve from now on to not use the words Jehovah, Yahweh or God, but Allah in all your conversations and prayers.

While you’re at it - you should do all your prayers to Allah at your nearest mosque. I’m sure they will open their mosques to you on Sundays. Pity about the confession though - I’m not sure the Imam is qualified to give you penance. No matter - just save up your sins and then confess to Allah himself when you meet him one day. I’m sure he will understand.

Better yet - read the Quran. And then pay the Jizyah to your local imam with humiliation. Open your mouth so he can spit in it while you hand over your cash, or bend your head forward so he can hit the nape of your neck or if you have a beard, allow him to yank your beard and slap you on the face while you hand over the jizyah.

I’m sure that is what Allah wants for Christians as he said it in his final message - the Quran - which supercedes the Bible which is corrupted by Christians anyway.

Good luck and Allah bless,
Rodrigo

 

[Ecoclimber]

But the name of God is rather more significant, and in that revelation it is manifest that God does care what he is called.

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD (Heb. ‘YHWH’) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me (Ex 20: 1-3).

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you… this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations (Ex3:14f).

The Bishop is right to point out that Christians throughout Arabia would use the name ‘Allah’, not least because it has come to be simply the Arabic term for God. But this was not revealed to Mohammed: the term predates his era and that of the Qur’an. Allah was in fact a Babylonian moon god, one of a pantheon of gods. Over the centuries he came to be the chief god and then the only god. Of course, most Muslims refute this, but they are largely ignorant of etymology, the evolution of language, cultural history, and textual criticism. And those who dare to delve into such areas as the ‘satanic verses’ either lose their heads or end up with a fatwa on their heads.

The use of ‘Alla’ for Arab Christians has always been as natural as ‘Dieu’ is for the French or ‘Gott’ is for the Germans. But ‘God’ is a job description, not a name. For Jews and Christians the name of God is revealed and he has made himself known; for Muslims he is unknown and unknowable. For Jews and Christians God is immanent and is their Father; for Muslims he is transcendent and not intimately related. For Christians God is revealed in Jesus, the Son of God; for Muslims God is one and has no partners.

Unfortunately, this Roman Catholic bishop who would have spent three years studying philosophy and a further four being steeped in theology completely misunderstands or chooses to entirely ignore the missio dei expounded so clearly in the New Testament. The entire story of the Early Church is dominated by the profound difficulties inherent in communicating a Hebrew messiah to a Greek audience. The modern Western world lives with the consequences of fusing Greek philosophy with Christian theology, which is why Jewish Christians tend to have a very different christology from Christians in the West. Christianity adapts to culture, but its central truths are immutable.

For Christians in the West to call God ‘Allah’ is nothing but dhimmitude. And what of reciprocity? Might we ask the Muslims to call Jesus the Son of God? No, of course not: the compromise is one way. And the problem is that ‘Allah’ does not now simply mean ‘God’: it has come to symbolise a distinct theology, and a particular doctrine of God. The connotations are salvation through works by adherence to law, absolute and unquestioning submission, and a complete absence of grace. Islam is intolerant of other faiths, and insensitive to cultural diversity. For many in the West, Allah is vindictive, oppressive, and his name has become the battle cry of terrorists and murderers. For Christians to use the term in a Western context would therefore be what St Paul termed ‘foolishness to the Greeks’. If the gospel is already foolishness to those who are being lost, the use of ‘Allah’ to reveal the saving grace of Jesus would be a further hurdle to overcome, an offence, a stumbling block. Here, where nomenclature is so important, it clearly matters what one calls God, and to get the term wrong is to risk the salvation of souls.

Our Father in Heaven, the one who asked that we call him Abba, Father, is manifestly not of the same ontology as the Allah of the Qur’an. One might just as well propose that churches be called mosques, Christians be called Muslims, and pretend in a pluralist Hickian kind of way that it doesn’t really matter because God is really an elephant and no-one sees the whole creature - Muslims have a leg and Christians have a tusk and Jews have got the trunk, but the greater truth is in the whole, which no-one sees.

 

[paarsurrey]

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD (Heb. ‘YHWH’) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me (Ex 20: 1-3).
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you… this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations (Ex3:14f).

Hi

I quote here verses from Exodus 3:13-15 from different Versions :

Exodus 3:13-15 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ "
15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, ** the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

Exodus 3:13-15 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

13Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”
14God said to Moses, “aI AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, '(B)The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ’ This is My name forever, and this is My (C)memorial-name to all generations.
Exodus 3:13-15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

3:13 Moses said to God, ‘So I will go to the Israelites and say, ‘Your fathers’ God sent me to you.’ They will immediately ask me what His name is. What shall I say to them?’
3:14 ‘I Will Be Who I Will Be,’ replied God to Moses.
[God then] explained, 'This is what you must say to the Israelites: ‘I Will Be sent me to you.’ ’

3:15 God then said to Moses, 'You must [then] say to the Israelites, ‘YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.’ This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.

SHEMOT
(Book of Exodus)
Chapter 3

13
And Moses said unto G-d: ‘Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them: The G-d of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me: What is His name? what shall I say unto them?’
14
And G-d said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’
15
And G-d said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: HaShem, the G-d of your fathers, the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.

It could be observed easily that GodAllahYHWH perhaps for some reason did not disclose his proper name, and if he did OTBible scribes could not record it properly, so what we get is perhaps a** conjecture ****only.

GodAllahYHWH knows the best.

Thanks

 

[roman6320]

The problem is NOT that we use different names for the Father of Abraham; the problem is radical Islam, an almost deafening silence by the alleged “moderate Islam” in condemning jihadists, and no functional Islamic authority to denounce their actions.

The silence is not all that deafening. There are moderate Muslims that do speak out against the violence of the extremists. Many have even issued fatwas condenming the bombings in London a couple of years back. There are many groups who desire to see the Koran interpreted differently in light of modern society. I heard a Muslim woman(that’s right, a woman!)speak out against the extremists and for democracy.
One reason these movements do not get much press may be that the media only prints the acts of the extremists on the front page or make them the top stories on the evening news.
A reason that the moderates are not more vocal than they can be could very well be that they are afraid that the extremists will act against them.
If writer Reza Aslan is correct, there is an Islamic reformation goiong on in the Muslim world, attempting to reform the Islamic outlook. This could be in large part what is fueling the extremist reaction.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

It is simply not true that there is a reformation going on in the Muslim world. If there is a reformation - it is a retrograde movement. I travel through much of the Middle East and Asia and my personal experience is that the Muslims are becoming more Islamic, not less. It is incorrect to think the ‘extremist’ muslims are responsible for all the problems. The entire Muslim world is heading more towards fundamentalism. Wahhabism is on the rise everywhere. Everywhere I go the signs are towards greater fundamentalism. The days of Naguib Mahfouz’s Sugar Street are long gone.

The disproportionate response to terrorism should be clear to all. The pope makes a comment - thousands of Muslims riot and burn and kill. When the 7/7 attack happened the response was like a whimper. So what if a few Muslims write comments to newspapers - they are not representative of the majority who are silently condoning the terrorist attacks.

If thousands of people can demonstrate when the pope makes a comment the least Muslims can do is to show a similar number marching in the streets against terrorism.

It is like comparing a tsunami with a ripple in a pond. There simply is no equivalence.

 

[Booklover]

To all the well-meaning Christians who think Allah is the God of Jesus Christ

That’s very nice and charitable of you. I think you should resolve from now on to not use the words Jehovah, Yahweh or God, but Allah in all your conversations and prayers.

While you’re at it - you should do all your prayers to Allah at your nearest mosque. I’m sure they will open their mosques to you on Sundays. Pity about the confession though - I’m not sure the Imam is qualified to give you penance. No matter - just save up your sins and then confess to Allah himself when you meet him one day. I’m sure he will understand.

Better yet - read the Quran. And then pay the Jizyah to your local imam with humiliation. Open your mouth so he can spit in it while you hand over your cash, or bend your head forward so he can hit the nape of your neck or if you have a beard, allow him to yank your beard and slap you on the face while you hand over the jizyah.

I’m sure that is what Allah wants for Christians as he said it in his final message - the Quran - which supercedes the Bible which is corrupted by Christians anyway.

Good luck and Allah bless,
Rodrigo

Great post, Rodrigo!

Vickie

 

[rbarcia]

Nope,

but I recognize that these other people do, as the Catechism points out. they may not believe in the same manner or interpretations as Us, but they do believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Like we do, only they do not have the truth of revelation to guide them properly, only a False prophet and a false holy book.

Islam does not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The cat even points out only Abraham. Islam believes Ishmael is the son of promise. Again, get it straight, they go through Ishmael, the son through the bond woman Hagar.

In fact in like manner, the Jewish people also try to worship the same God too, it’s rather unhelpful not to at least recognize that they do try to worship God in a manner they think is correct. But as I said before the CCC’s section pertaining to Muslims was enough recognition.

Read it clearly, know your own catechism. The Muslim do not go through Isaac and Jacob. The only common bond is Abraham.
Catechism

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
The Bible is clear though on this:

**

Romans 9

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[e

**

So having a common bond to just Abraham (Again, the muslims do not worship God of Isaac or Jacob, but they go through Ishmael.) Is Not enough.

**

Luke 20

37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob**.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

I will never call God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) allah. The koran is from the desk of Satan.

allah is not Jesus, who is God the Son. They do not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, they do not acknowledge his redemptive work on the cross.

But even so, they do not worship the same god a different way, they teach and believe lies. They worship a false god.

You cannot compromise TRUTH for peace. Truth always comes before peace.

**

John 1: 14

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth**.

**

 

[roman6320]

Notice I said"if Reza Aslan was right". Maybe he isn’t. Come to think of it, He is from Iran, which though it is ruled by fundamentalist Shiits, has no love for Wahhabism. Also, in spite of Iran’s rather repressive government, much of its populace reportedly wants liberal reform. I have also read in journals such as The WilsonQuartlerly and Foriegn Affairs about many movements for reform.

Perhaps reformation is not the right word. Maybe a better term would be struggle. It could very well be that the fundamentalist version of Islam will win out if it hasn’t already. Given the anger against Western policies in the Middle East over the decades it is the extremists that have provided a strong voice in opposition. The Islamic revolution in Iran was an example.

But it remains to be seen what will happen in the future. In the meantime I will not give in to generalizations that could foment hatred. I will not yet believe that every Muslim I come across(and in my area there are thousands) wants to cut my throat.