Bishop urges Christians to call God 'Allah'

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

That you think the true God would not allow people to ascribe false things to Him. Therefore, you are trying to protect His honor by a verbal shell game.

Sure - I am not holding God responsible for the sins of mortals.

That is not to say that I would believe just any old dear who claims his personal God is the God of Jesus Christ. Particularly if that old dear was a murderer, a bandit, a torturer, an enslaver of women and children and a man who had sex with a nine year old child.

But I see you don’t have a problem believing a claim particular when the claimant was a murderer, a bandit, a torturer, an enslaver of women and children and a man who had sex with a nine year old child.

I’m not sure that means he was a fraud, but I agree that his theology was heavily dependent on garbled misunderstandings of Judaism and Christianity.

Can you even stand back and look at what you write?

It’s like saying, I’m not sure the man was a thief just because he stole some stuff.

I’m not sure the man was a murderer just because he slit someone’s throat.

Yeah right.

No–for the hundredth time, I am saying that Muslims believe false things about God. You refuse even to consider this possibility. Please stop misrepresenting what I am saying. I acknowledged that I was misrepresenting you, though I’m sorry you had to repeat yourself so often for me to get the point. Please do me the same courtesy.

For the hundred time I am saying the Islamic Allah is not the God of Jesus Christ.

Is that so difficult to understand?

I have made it clear that I don’t agree with the bishop. However, he is not sympathizing with the false ideas of Muslims, but with the true things they believe about God.

You mean the true things about God like:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, unless they’re People of the Book who pay the jizyah with humiliation.

You mean the true things about God like:
If anyone apostatize kill him.

You mean the true things about God like:
It is not befitting for a prophet until he has made slaughter in the land.

Right. I do get your point loud and clear.

If you are claiming that Muslims and Christians worship two different deities, then your understanding of God is highly relevant. Otherwise we can’t have a meaningful discussion.

Of course I’m claiming that Muslims and Christians worship two different deities. They can’t be the same, can they, since they are so different.

No, I’m standing with the truth.

And your truth seems to be insulting a person who stands up against oppressors.

I don’t think you know the truth if you fell over it. Tell your truth to the Copts and Assyrian Christians.

No, my point is that I now understand what you meant. I thought you meant that the word was now unusable, and I have admitted that I was blinded by my desire to turn your rhetoric back on you.

Okay.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I’m sorry, but there is no logical connection here. Christians have oppressed Jews. As a Christian, I don’t think this means that we worship a false god. I think it means that we misunderstood what God wanted of us.

Show me where Jesus Christ or your God told you to oppress Jews.

You are mistaking the sins of man for the sins of a false god.

As I understand Akhenaton’s theology, he thought the sun disk was a manifestation of the one God. However, he may not have. Note that I explicitly said “one God who transcends the physical universe.”

So your god is the manifestation of the one god? Do you worship the sun like he did?

You can’t create gibberish and base an argument on it. To say that the God who created the universe is spatially contained in a jar is logically incoherent, and I am not aware of any person or culture who has ever believed any such thing. So you have no case. Note again that I explicitly said “transcends the physical universe.” A good case can be made that Mormons, for instance, really don’t believe in the same God we do.

So you think a true all-powerful God cannot live in a jar in my kitchen if he wanted to?

Again, the whole argument is based on bad semantics. When we say “the God of Muhammad” we mean “Muhammad’s representation of God.” I do not believe that Muhammad’s representation of God is identical with the real God, no. But then many Christians believe mistaken things about God as well, and all of us have a woefully inadequate concept of God. All language purporting to speak of the one God who created the universe is pointing, however imperfectly, toward the same reality. It is therefore semantically preferable to say “Muslims believe in the same God we do, but they think mistakenly about Him,” rather than, “Muslims believe in a different God.”

So it is semantics, is it when the Islamic Allah made this command:

Do not take the People of the Book as friends for they are friends to each other. They only wish to make you like them so do not take them for friends. Unless they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they should turn away seize them wherever you find them and KILL THEM.

Yeah right. It’s all semantics. Tell that to the Christians who have been oppressed for centuries by the Muslims in the name of the Islamic Allah who is also the God of Jesus Christ (though they misunderstand him).

But if you don’t believe in one God in the first place, no wonder you can’t understand these things.

Edwin

That’s a cheap ad hominem on your part, isn’t it?

 

[MrS]

Will any of our muslim friends be upset if I refer to God as Jesus?

or at the very least, Emmanuel. ??

 

[StMarkEofE]

CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

They have a different idea of God, plus they don’t recognize the necessity of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

“No one comes to the Father except through Me”. Hmmm, I guess Jesus was just kidding, and we shouldnt take this seriously.

 

[Verisimilitude]

The name Allah needs to be severly qualified to mean God, and without the qualifiers, it is not.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2404059&postcount=50

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

“No one comes to the Father except through Me”. Hmmm, I guess Jesus was just kidding, and we shouldnt take this seriously.

What are you talking about ? unravel the riddle please.

Seems to me your misreading the quote…should I be surprised.

 

[dessert]

CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

They have a different idea of God, plus they don’t recognize the necessity of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think they really are more supportive of Judaism than we are and maybe more of the land of Israel not neccassarily the Israelites.
mayb they are sympathizers to the Jews thinking that they are wrongly accused, some people not them blame them for the death of Jesus or crucify on the cross any ways they acknowledge Jesus as a great prophet where as the Jews see him as a false prophet. Nither one sees the divinity of Jesus as the prescense of God so they probably don’t believe anyone human can even get close to God, divinely and yet there are many mystics in the east:shrug:
Dessert

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<To say that Muslims worship “a different god” is a figure of speech by which you are asserting that their concept of God is so distorted that you choose to name it according to what is false, not according to what is true. >>

Bingo! You’re catching on! Muslims’ concept of God IS distorted and false.

Either that or Christ is a liar.

 

[qui_est_ce]

“No one comes to the Father except through Me”. Hmmm, I guess Jesus was just kidding, and we shouldnt take this seriously.

This means Jesus saves, we don’t necessarily have to believe in Him if we never heard of Him, or had a chance to know Him. Jesus came to save ALL. He can save anybody he wants to.

 

[dessert]

In just about every other “issue” discussed on this forum, an appeal to the Magisterium is always cited…what does the Magisterium say on this issue about whether Allah an YHVH are ths same God? Isn’t the catecism from the Magisterium? It would seem, that even though the Magisterium is invoked as an authoritive teaching tool, not all Catholics really accept what the Magisterium teaches…even those in “union with Rome.”

Read #206 CCC

Our liturgy says Kyrie eleison, #2613 (english)-Lord have mercy
Christe, eleison Christ have mercy

#209
God (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title"LORD" Greek Kyrios#446

Allah is not in our CCC but it is Arabic and that language was spoken along with greek and arameric and hebrew and lebaneses at the time of Jesus
#597-99 Jews not responsible collectivelyfor the death of Jesus

CCC #'s for YHWH

205,206,210-213,446,
211,446-47,2666

the CCC says they adore the one same Creator it doesn’t have to say they are the same God as the Roman Catholic Church recognizes that there is a plan of salvation for all which is from God alone #169
Faith has a language that we assimilate and live and bear fruit.
#170&171

The Bishop is acting as a peacemaker IMHO. And we must wait for the Pope’s descision on the whole matter.
Dessert

 

[Contarini]

<<To say that Muslims worship “a different god” is a figure of speech by which you are asserting that their concept of God is so distorted that you choose to name it according to what is false, not according to what is true. >>

Bingo! You’re catching on!

I’m not “catching on”–this is what I have been maintaining all along. I wish you would point out to some of your enthusiastic friends that their assertions about the Islamic God being “different” are actually just figures of speech.

Now you need to defend ontologically why you would name a thing from what is not rather than from what is.

Edwin

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<I’m not “catching on”–this is what I have been maintaining all along. I wish you would point out to some of your enthusiastic friends that their assertions about the Islamic God being “different” are actually just figures of speech.

• W * R * O * N * G * !!!

I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate!

How is this the same as the God of Islam? Please explain.

 

[qui_est_ce]

CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

What does the phrase “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims” mean? I don’t really understand the paragraph. To me it looks like it says the plan of salvation is for all who believe in THE Creator, which would mean one God, and the Muslims first…therefore the Muslims believe in the same God as Catholics.

 

[Contarini]

<<I’m not “catching on”–this is what I have been maintaining all along. I wish you would point out to some of your enthusiastic friends that their assertions about the Islamic God being “different” are actually just figures of speech.

How can I be “catching on” and WRONG at the same time?

There is no “God of Islam.” There is one God, period, and people talk about Him in various ways, all of them inadequate and some of them deeply mistaken. I repeat: to name the Islamic concept of God from what is not (their errors) rather than what is (their intended reference to the one God who created the universe) is as foolish and confusing as it is harsh and uncharitable.

Edwin

 

[dessert]

What does the phrase “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims” mean? I don’t really understand the paragraph. To me it looks like it says the plan of salvation is for all who believe in THE Creator, which would mean one God, and the Muslims first…therefore the Muslims believe in the same God as Catholics.

You are confusing some of the words, acknowledge and believe can mean different terms.
IMHO I think some Muslims just recognize there possibly is a creator some believe some profess some don’t.Just like other faiths and beliefs such as the native americans say the great spirit.
Beleive in or having the faith of Abraham is a beginning. Muslims believe they are also the ancestors of Abraham.
In the bible times some followed Peter some Paul some Abraham some Moses and the law, it is a plan, of salvation.

The complete plan is through to Jesus the Christ the anointed One

#842The Church’s bond with non-Christian religionsis in the first place the common origin and end of the human race.
All nations are but one community. This is so because all sttem from one stockwhich God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a comon destiny, namely God…
…
There is the term first place again, I don’t think it really means what we may imply.

 

[dessert]

This means Jesus saves, we don’t necessarily have to believe in Him if we never heard of Him, or had a chance to know Him. Jesus came to save ALL. He can save anybody he wants to.

:hypno:

 

[nonsumd]

What does the phrase “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims” mean? I don’t really understand the paragraph. To me it looks like it says the plan of salvation is for all who believe in THE Creator, which would mean one God, and the Muslims first…therefore the Muslims believe in the same God as Catholics.

“*n the first place amongst whom are the Muslims” distinguishes Muslims from other non-Christians/non-Jews who recognize a Creator God.

Muslims have “first place” because they venerate and claim spiritual descent from many of the same figures as do Christians, particularly from Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims are closer to Christians and Jews in their beliefs than other non-Christian/non-Jewish groups (e.g. Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians) are.*

 

[nonsumd]

I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate!

How is this the same as the God of Islam? Please explain.

Does your question not also apply to the God of Judaism?

 

[dessert]

How can I be “catching on” and WRONG at the same time?

There is no “God of Islam.” There is one God, period, and people talk about Him in various ways, all of them inadequate and some of them deeply mistaken. I repeat: to name the Islamic concept of God from what is not (their errors) rather than what is (their intended reference to the one God who created the universe) is as foolish and confusing as it is harsh and uncharitable.

Edwin

I have YET too read their **profession of faith **unless I have missed it some where and how many posts have their bee? Thousands they are even catching up to me and I have been here a year. I can’t make a profession of faith for them.
Maybe if we can get them out of the OT ?
Some burn the bridges or while they are building another tear it down and start over, they definitely want Mohammads’ name on it but from what you are implying is we are all on the same side of the river? Soooooooo why are we building a bridge?
This thread escuse me my friend started out with a bishop having the most hospitable intentions and very charitable and that my friend is what this discussion has been about, his extended hand of peace sooooooo what did they do in reply maybe our friend ly muslim can find an article about THAT
Or maybe you can find out !!!
Dessert

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

What does the phrase “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims” mean? I don’t really understand the paragraph. To me it looks like it says the plan of salvation is for all who believe in THE Creator, which would mean one God, and the Muslims first…therefore the Muslims believe in the same God as Catholics.

I suppose it could be seen as a diplomatic approach by the Church in just saying that these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, professing it and whether they actually do is another thing.

In short thats the only link we have with them, but their view of God is different, yes we recognize One God, One Creator, but they don’t recognize Three Divine Persons, like most Christians.

As some say, even the American Indians recognized the Great Spirit, at least they weren’t atheist, however barbaric some of their acts were, considering what is going on in the world today I suppose they had as much moral standards as some of us do.