Bishop urges Christians to call God 'Allah'

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Rodrigo, you’ve confessed that you have a personal investment in thinking the worst of Islam (your failed marriage with a Muslim woman), so perhaps I should just give up trying to get you to be more reasonable.

Dear nonsumd,
You do realize that you’ve just committed an ad hominem against me, don’t you? Please stick to the issues and desist from ‘playing the man’.

How do you know that my failed marriage to a Muslimah is the cause of my knowledge of Islam?

Sometimes personal experience is necessary to obtain the truth. Ever thought of that?

I’m just letting you know that I have experience in both camps - Islam and Christianity and am not talking from ignorance as many well-meaning but misguided Christians do.

nonsumd:

A couple months ago on a message board I posted hundreds of messages defending Catholic teaching (transubstantiation in particular) and challenging Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and OSAS in response to the anti-Catholic fulminations of a Calvinist – only to find out that this guy presumed that his experience of bad Catholics within his own family gave him the right to condemn all Catholics and all of Catholicism.

Nothing to do with me.

nonsumd:

If I did not say x, but you say that I said x, you are putting words in my mouth.

Nope. You implied that there was some commonality between islam and Christianity. I only addressed that point.

nonsumd:

I do not need to believe that other religions are completely false and totally diabolic in origin for me to continue to believe in the superior truth of Christianity. My faith is that strong. Is your faith strong enough to live with the truth?

I live with the truth every moment. That is why I tell the truth about Islam.

nonsumd:

Did I ever say I believed in the teachings of Muhammad?

You were sure quick to believe that his theology contains the truth, though.

If you disbelieve in the teachings of Muhammad why did you claim there was some fragment of Christianity in it?

nonsumd:

I must just believe you, R.B., because fanatics have a certain power of persuasion…

I know I have the persuasive powers of the truth.

Do you not believe my god Bollox? Why not? Have I not raided enough caravans, killed enough people, raped enough women, enslaved enough children for you to take my word as you took Muhammad’s word?

nonsumd:

I don’t believe the God who sent Jesus sent Muhammad (I say yet again).

Just because I disagree about you on some things does not mean you have to misrepresent me as disagreeing with you about everything.

I only disagree that there is any commonality between islam and Christianity.

I just wonder why some well-meaning but misguided Christians ascribe to islam things that aren’t there - like brotherhood with Christianity.

nonsumd:

I think you have problem understanding English. I said that Muhammad resembled an Old Testament prophet. I did not say that Muhammad was a prophet of God. The devil often masquerades as an angel when it suits his purposes (not that I presume that I know whether any human being, including Muhammad, is just the devil in disguise).

(cont.)

Good for you. Then I would not be so quick as to claim that the 99 names of the Islamic Allah (made up by Muhammad, by the way) is okay in prayer for a Christian.

If he is truly the devil in disguise why would a Christian recite the 99 names of Islamic Allah?

I call that dancing with the devil.

 

[nonsumd]

Dear nonsumd,
You do realize that you’ve just committed an ad hominem against me, don’t you? Please stick to the issues and desist from ‘playing the man’.

How do you know that my failed marriage to a Muslimah is the cause of my knowledge of Islam?

Sometimes personal experience is necessary to obtain the truth. Ever thought of that?

I’m just letting you know that I have experience in both camps - Islam and Christianity and am not talking from ignorance as many well-meaning but misguided Christians do.

If one advertises one’s personal interest in a matter, one undermines one’s authority, whether someone points it out or not.

Your personal experience still remains personal experience, and you should not presume that simply having personal experience bestows any objectivity on you.

You were sure quick to believe that his theology contains the truth, though.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and will infer that your command of English is not fluent.

I said Muhammad’s theology contains some truths (precisely those truths which you characterize him as “stealing” from Christianity).

If you disbelieve in the teachings of Muhammad why did you claim there was some fragment of Christianity in it?

I don’t believe in Muhammad’s teachings as a whole. I believe in the Christian fragments that can be found in his teachings.

I know I have the persuasive powers of the truth.

This is the language of every fanatic.

Good for you. Then I would not be so quick as to claim that the 99 names of the Islamic Allah (made up by Muhammad, by the way) is okay in prayer for a Christian.

If he is truly the devil in disguise why would a Christian recite the 99 names of Islamic Allah?

There is nothing in the 99 names that is in contradiction to Christian theology, so there would be no harm in reciting the 99 names. I would not do so without prefacing it and concluding it with the Sign of the Cross.

I call that dancing with the devil.

The metaphor is telling, given your personal history.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

(cont.)
Islam and Christianity include peoples of all nations – and they make their appeal to the whole world.

Except Christianity does not seek to make everyone a pseudo-Roman (well, they used to but not anymore), while Islam is thoroughly arabo-centric. If you knew Islam, you would know this.

Islam is somewhat more Arabo-centric than Christianity is Judeocentric because many Muslims look to Muhammad as a model not just for moral behavior but also for specifics of dress, diet, manners, and other details; thus Arabic cultural ways have greater prestige among Muslims than Jewish cultural ways have among Christians. Christians do not look to Jesus as a model for specific cultural practices, only for moral behavior.

Thanks for proving my point. Why do Muslims ape Muhammad? Because of the central claim of Islam that Muhammad is the perfect EXAMPLE for them for all time.

nonsumd:

At the same time, can you really say that there is no connection between conversion to Christianity and imitation of European/Western cultural ways?

No. Because there is nothing in the Christian scripture that tells the Christian convert to ape the Europeans. Nothing at all.

This is not the same with Islam.

nonsumd:

Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the Word of God; in their religion the Qur’an is the equivalent of the Person of Jesus in Christianity. It is not strange that such an exalted view of a scriptural text should lead to believing that the specific human language in which the text was revealed is itself sacred and not interchangeable with other human languages. We Christians never had such an exalted view of our scriptures and hence of the specific languages they were originally written in. Yet, until recently, we Catholics believed that Latin was the only language fit for our liturgy.

Except you believed Latin was the only language fit for your liturgy from the teachings of your church and not from your Bible.

Nowhere in your Bible does it say you have to read it in a certain language. In contrast, Muslims are told the Allah revealed in clear Arabic so it is easy for them to understand. The choice of Arabic was made by their god. The choice of language was not given by yours.

nonsumd:

It is true that Arabizing fashions in clothing have been spreading in Indonesia, but it is still a minority that follow them and it cannot be said that all of these people consider themselves to be imitating Arabs so much as just “dressing Muslim.” And there are many Indonesians who consider themselves devout Muslims in Indonesia yet disparage the imitation of Arab fashions.

Sure that’s the case - but it is still an Arabocentric religion since all the prayers are in Arabic whether these people understand them or not. They cannot recite prayers in any language except Arabic. Their God does not accept or understand prayers except in Arabic.

This is untrue fpr Christianity, isn’t it?

nonsumd:

The point of this Muslim joke is that the Arabs were the most depraved and wicked people on the earth so God sent his final prophet to them.

And then inflicted on the rest of the world. If the religion of Islam were limited only to the Arabs we wouldn’t be discussing Islam today. The world would be a less troubled place and millions of people need not have died or been oppressed under the swords of the Arab invaders following the command of their prophet to spread Islam by the sword.

nonsumd:

That there is One God. That God is merciful and compassionate. That Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus will come at the end of time. That we should keep continually in the presence of God (the five daily prayers). That we should show compassion to the weak (the obligation to pay the alms tithe). That God is as close to each of us as our jugular vein.

Islamic Allah is not merciful and compassionate to non-Muslims.

Jesus was born under a palm tree on the way to Egypt and he talked as a baby.

Jesus will come at the end of time to oppress the non-Muslims.

You do not make 5 prayers a day.

Muslim charity is only for other Muslims.

Out of the entire Quran you only come up with this?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

(cont.)

67 Al-Ahad (الاحد) The One, the All Inclusive, The Indivisible
68 As-Samad (الصمد) The Self Sufficient, The Impregnable, The Eternally Besought of All, The Everlasting
69 Al-Qadir (القادر) The All Able
70 Al-Muqtadir (المقتدر) The All Determiner, The Dominant
71 Al-Muqaddim (المقدم) The Expediter, He Who Brings Forward
72 Al-Mu’akhir (المؤخر) The Delayer, He Who Puts Far Away
73 Al-Awwal (الأول) The First
74 Al-Akhir (الأخر) The Last
75 Az-Zahir (الظاهر) The Manifest, The All Victorious
76 Al-Batin (الباطن) The Hidden, The All Encompassing
77 Al-Wali (الوالي) The Patron
78 Al-Muta’ali (المتعالي) The Self Exalted
79 Al-Barr (البر) The Most Kind and Righteous
80 At-Tawwab (التواب) The Ever Returning, Ever Relenting
81 Al-Muntaqim (المنتقم) The Avenger
82 Al-'Afuww (العفو) The Pardoner, The Effacer of Sins
83 Ar-Ra’oof (الرؤوف) The Compassionate, The All Pitying
84 Malik-al-Mulk (مالك الملك) The Owner of All Sovereignty
85 Dhu-al-Jalali wa-al-Ikram (ذو الجلال و الإكرام) The Lord of Majesty and Generosity
86 Al-Muqsit (المقسط) The Equitable, The Requiter
87 Al-Jami’e (الجامع) The Gatherer, The Unifier
88 Al-Ghanaie (الغنى) The All Rich, The Independent
89 Al-Mughni (المغنى) The Enricher, The Emancipator
90 Al-Mani’e (المانع) The Withholder, The Shielder, the Defender
91 Ad-Darr (الضار) The Distressor, The Harmer (This attribute can only be found in hadith)
92 An-Nafi’e (النافع) The Propitious, The Benefactor
93 An-Noor (النور) The Light
94 Al-Hadi (الهادي) The Guide
95 Al-Badi (البديع) The Incomparable, The Originator
96 Al-Baqi (الباقي) The Ever Enduring and Immutable
97 Al-Warith (الوارث) The Heir, The Inheritor of All
98 Ar-Rasheed (الرشيد) The Guide, Infallible Teacher and Knower
99 As-Saboor (الصبور) The Patient, The Timeless.

I hope you won’t accuse me of apostasy if I say that I find nothing to disagree with in these 99 names.

My admitting that does not make me believe any less in the divinity of Jesus.

My faith in Christianity is strong enough that I can live with the fact that others do not share my faith, even with the fact that those who do not share my faith can still be people of goodwill.

Those of you who insist that Islam has absolutely nothing in common with Christianity, is your faith in Christianity that weak?

9 should give you pause (“Compeller” is a better translation). It denies free will.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

nonsumd:

I am saying that Islam is neither entirely true nor entirely false; it teaches many of the same truths that Christianity does.

Like what? Like this?

Fight all those who do not believe in Allah or the Last day, except if they’re Christians or Jews who pay the Jizyah with humiliation.

What is true in Islam? The only thing I can find from your list above is that God is as close to us as the jugular vein. You want to hang your hat on that?

nonsumd:

I claim brotherhood with the Muslim because we are children of the same God. That we are all God’s children is not diminished by the fact that we do not understand Him in the same ways.

Pity the Muslims don’t consider you a brother but a dhimmi.

Stalin had a word to describe people like you: Useful idiots.

nonsumd:

By the grace of God, I am a Christian and as such can easily distinguish between the worldly fortunes of Christian states and the validity of Christianity. A pagan Arab of Muhammad’s time would not necessarily have had the grace to see beyond the humiliation of the worldly power of Christian rulers.

So because of that it is all right for Muhammad to kill, rape, torture, enslave, steal, and make war?

What a strange way to obtain grace.

nonsumd:

You don’t know the intentions with which pagan Arabs went about assembling Islam – it is completely your choice to impute to them a malevolent purpose.

Au contraire, mon ami. They told us this point blank in their scriptures. You haven’t read their scriptures have you?

nonsumd:

If one advertises one’s personal interest in a matter, one undermines one’s authority, whether someone points it out or not.

Your personal experience still remains personal experience, and you should not presume that simply having personal experience bestows any objectivity on you.

Haven’t I told you you’ve committed an ad hominem?

Of course I have a personal interest in Islam. How does that invalidate what I know about it?

Do you have a personal interest in Christianity? Does it invalidate your knowledge of Christianity?

nonsumd:

I give you the benefit of the doubt and will infer that your command of English is not fluent.

I said Muhammad’s theology contains some truths (precisely those truths which you characterize him as “stealing” from Christianity).

Why would you do that? Have I committed any grammatical errors? Haven’t I told you I’m a native born American?

nonsumd:

I don’t believe in Muhammad’s teachings as a whole. I believe in the Christian fragments that can be found in his teachings

The only thing you could come up with that could be unchallenged were these:
Jesus was born of Virgin Mary
God is as close to us as our jugular vein.

Pretty impressive, isn’t it, the degree of Christianity in the entire body of Islam.

nonsumd:

This is the language of every fanatic.

Now you’re descending to insults, suggesting you had no case to begin with.

nonsumd:

There is nothing in the 99 names that is in contradiction to Christian theology, so there would be no harm in reciting the 99 names. I would not do so without prefacing it and concluding it with the Sign of the Cross.

It’s not the names per se. It’s you giving credence and brotherhood to Satan.

nonsumd:

The metaphor is telling, given your personal history.

My Muslim ex-wife is very beautiful, if you must know.

 

[nonsumd]

Except Christianity does not seek to make everyone a pseudo-Roman (well, they used to but not anymore), while Islam is thoroughly arabo-centric. If you knew Islam, you would know this.

Thanks for proving my point. Why do Muslims ape Muhammad? Because of the central claim of Islam that Muhammad is the perfect EXAMPLE for them for all time.

For all of your supposed personal experience, you seem to have only the narrowest and prejudiced views of Islam and Muslims. A tourist can have traveled to every country of the world and never have left home intellectually.

I was not seeking to disprove your point, I was just trying to offer a more nuanced version of it.

No. Because there is nothing in the Christian scripture that tells the Christian convert to ape the Europeans. Nothing at all.

There is nothing in Christian scripture that tells Christians to ape Europeans because there was no modern European civilization yet in existence to be aped.

I have not disputed that Islam is Arabo-centric in a way that Christianity is not Judeo-centric, but, if many non-Arab Muslims do not see this as a bad thing while other non-Arab Muslims assert that they can be Muslims without becoming culturally Arab, what makes you, a non-Muslim, so upset?

 

[nonsumd]

9 should give you pause (“Compeller” is a better translation). It denies free will.

I don’t believe in “Irresistable Grace,” but some Christians do (maybe even Rodrigo’s sect).

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

For all of your supposed personal experience, you seem to have only the narrowest and prejudiced views of Islam and Muslims. A tourist can have traveled to every country of the world and never have left home intellectually.

I was not seeking to disprove your point, I was just trying to offer a more nuanced version of it.

Why supposed? You don’t believe me?

Did you think I was a tourist? Have you considered that I lived many years in several Islamic countries and have studied Islam in those years?

Unlike you I have actually experienced Islam and have read the Islamic scriptures. Have you? I don’t think so. I think you are PROJECTING your Christian sensibilities onto Islam and Muslims.

Why don’t you ask an Eyptian Copt to tell you about the brotherhood between Islam and Christianity, between Muslims and Christians? Or do you think this Copt is too personally involved to be rational?

nonsumd:

There is nothing in Christian scripture that tells Christians to ape Europeans because there was no modern European civilization yet in existence to be aped.

So you just disproved your point above. Thanks.

nonsumd:

I have not disputed that Islam is Arabo-centric in a way that Christianity is not Judeo-centric, but, if many non-Arab Muslims do not see this as a bad thing while other non-Arab Muslims assert that they can be Muslims without becoming culturally Arab, what makes you, a non-Muslim, so upset?

Please refer to my original point. I couldn’t care less what Muslims do to themselves. The issue was the COMMONALITY between Islam and Christianity.

One is Arabocentric and the other is free to the world. Make up your mind which is which.

 

[pro_universal]

When I used to get into these “debates” with Rodrigo, he would cut and paste from anti-islamic websites, without citing those sites. That’s called Plagiarism in some circles-and it speaks volumes about the level of open mindedness and analytical ability that you are dealing with.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Hahaha. Is that all you’ve got to say, pro? Sure sounds like sour grapes to me after i thumped you comprehensively in one debate after another, so much so you have to resort to SLIME.

Good show, pro.

 

[pro_universal]

Hahaha. Is that all you’ve got to say, pro? Sure sounds like sour grapes to me after i thumped you comprehensively in one debate after another, so much so you have to resort to SLIME.

Good show, pro.

Wait, are you saying that what I said is untrue? Or not?

 

[nonsumd]

Your blind hatred saddens me, Rodrigo, deeply saddens me.

Pity the Muslims don’t consider you a brother but a dhimmi.

Stalin had a word to describe people like you: Useful idiots.

Very telling that you quote Stalin…

I know many Muslims who consider Christians their brothers. And even if there were no Muslims who looked on us or treated us as brothers, would not Jesus want us to treat them as brothers anyway?

So because of that it is all right for Muhammad to kill, rape, torture, enslave, steal, and make war?

When did I say that any of this was right?

I was just trying to explain why pagan Arabs of the time (or any non-Christian at any time for that matter) may not have easily seen the truth of Christianity?

You are taking for granted the grace that God has given you in giving you the Christian faith.

What a strange way to obtain grace.

Muslims have been motivated by what they learn from their scriptures to do good to their neighbors, even their non-Muslim neighbors.

If you want to claim yourself to be objective, you can’t jump from listing verses that command Muslims to treat non-Muslims as enemies to making sweeping generalizations about how all Muslims have treated non-Muslims all the time (particularly when there are other verses which do not command them to treat non-Muslims as enemies).

Au contraire, mon ami. They told us this point blank in their scriptures. You haven’t read their scriptures have you?

Have you read our scriptures?

The Old Testament in many pasages can be interpreted to be commanding me to show no mercy to non-believers, and even the scenarios in Revelation can be read as encouraging Christians to see that violent death is what unbelievers deserve.

Yet most Christians do not read the Bible as literally commanding them to violence.

Haven’t I told you you’ve committed an ad hominem?

Of course I have a personal interest in Islam. How does that invalidate what I know about it?

Do you have a personal interest in Christianity? Does it invalidate your knowledge of Christianity?

Christianity is my religion – so indeed I cannot claim objectivity about it.

Islam is not your religion and you have negative personal experience of individual Muslims – these do not confer objectivity on you either.

Why would you do that? Have I committed any grammatical errors? Haven’t I told you I’m a native born American?

Being a native-born American does not guarantee anyone fluency in understanding English, particularly when the person only wants to hear what he wants to hear.

My Muslim ex-wife is very beautiful, if you must know.

Was not the devil the most beautiful of all the angels?

If you want free emotional therapy, I think you’d do better not seeking it through a message board.

I know that does not sound charitable to be so blunt, but I do pray that you get over whatever you need to get over.

Your blusterings could be planting in some impressionable reader the seeds of a future Christian terrorist.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I am saying I inadvertently left out a few links when I responded to several Muslims at the same time. All you ever do is slime in your attempt to discredit me instead of discussing the issues.

Did you show what I provided to be wrong? No.

So slime away - it only makes you seem, well, like a TOAD.

Good show, pro.

 

[pro_universal]

I am saying I inadvertently left out a few links when I responded to several Muslims at the same time. All you ever do is slime in your attempt to discredit me instead of discussing the issues.

Did you show what I provided to be wrong? No.

So slime away - it only makes you seem, well, like a TOAD.

Good show, pro.

No, you represented material as your own. Not in quotes, no link, no mention of it not being your writing. You did so repeatedly.

When you are attacking the credibility of others to speak on Islam, as you just did with nonsumd, I think it’s important that you be reminded of your own past credibility problems. You used to cut and paste material directly from the web and post it here as your own writing-that’s a pretty drastic thing to do. Your hatred of Islam and Muslims seems to be driving you to abandon scruples in order to tarnish their reputations.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Your blind hatred saddens me, Rodrigo, deeply saddens me.

Oh… If you consider the truth to be blind hatred then so be it. I think the readers here would much prefer if you discuss the issues, don’t you?

nonsumd:

Very telling that you quote Stalin…

Yes, that is what he called people like you - useful idiots.

nonsumd:

I know many Muslims who consider Christians their brothers. And even if there were no Muslims who looked on us or treated us as brothers, would not Jesus want us to treat them as brothers anyway?

He didn’t tell you to recite the 99 names of Islamic Allah either.

nonsumd:

When did I say that any of this was right?

I was just trying to explain why pagan Arabs of the time (or any non-Christian at any time for that matter) may not have easily seen the truth of Christianity?

You are taking for granted the grace that God has given you in giving you the Christian faith.

So because they didn’t easily see the truth of Christianity you think their religion of rape, murder, torture, enslaving (of children), banditry and genocide to contain truth, however fragmentary?

nonsumd:

Muslims have been motivated by what they learn from their scriptures to do good to their neighbors, even their non-Muslim neighbors.

You mean like this?

Do not take Christians to be friends, for they are friends to each other. They seek to make you like them so do not take them for friends. Unless they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they should turn away SEIZE THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM AND KILL THEM.

You haven’t read the Islamic scriptures have you? All you have done is project your Christian beliefs onto Muslims, haven’t you?

nonsumd:

If you want to claim yourself to be objective, you can’t jump from listing verses that command Muslims to treat non-Muslims as enemies to making sweeping generalizations about how all Muslims have treated non-Muslims all the time (particularly when there are other verses which do not command them to treat non-Muslims as enemies).

Aren’t we talking theology? If Muslims choose to disobey their god and be nice to Christians, why would it give Islam a FREE PASS?

nonsumd:

Have you read our scriptures?

The Old Testament in many pasages can be interpreted to be commanding me to show no mercy to non-believers, and even the scenarios in Revelation can be read as encouraging Christians to see that violent death is what unbelievers deserve.

Yet most Christians do not read the Bible as literally commanding them to violence.

Sure I have read your scriptures. That’s why I know the OT is descriptive and not prescriptive.

I’m surprised as a Christian you would think the OT commands you to show no mercy to disbelievers. Shame on you. Say three hail marys please. Straight to bed and no supper for you, young man.

nonsumd:

Christianity is my religion – so indeed I cannot claim objectivity about it.

Islam is not your religion and you have negative personal experience of individual Muslims – these do not confer objectivity on you either.

I am entirely objective - as you haven’t shown anything I have written to be false.

In contrast, it is the other way around - everything you wrote I have disproved.

So who is the objective one between the two of us?

nonsumd:

Being a native-born American does not guarantee anyone fluency in understanding English, particularly when the person only wants to hear what he wants to hear.

I think we can safely say you assumed I was not a native English speaker but a heaven-forbid FOREIGNER, gasp, gasp.

nonsumd:

Was not the devil the most beautiful of all the angels?

If you want free emotional therapy, I think you’d do better not seeking it through a message board.

I know that does not sound charitable to be so blunt, but I do pray that you get over whatever you need to get over.

Your blusterings could be planting in some impressionable reader the seeds of a future Christian terrorist.

My Muslim ex-wife was not the devil, even if she was a bit on the naughty side, thank you very much.

Of course, being right all the time about Islam doesn’t mean I’m blustering. It just mean I’m telling you the truth.

Did you know that Islam is the only religion in the entire world that specifically calls for the oppression of Christians? Does that make you stop and think?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

No, you represented material as your own. Not in quotes, no link, no mention of it not being your writing. You did so repeatedly.

When you are attacking the credibility of others to speak on Islam, as you just did with nonsumd, I think it’s important that you be reminded of your own past credibility problems. You used to cut and paste material directly from the web and post it here as your own writing-that’s a pretty drastic thing to do. Your hatred of Islam and Muslims seems to be driving you to abandon scruples in order to tarnish their reputations.

We both know that’s not true, isn’t it? When you told me of my mistake I immediately corrected and made sure that I always referenced correctly in my discussions with you.

But because of that, you can only slime like a toad.

Have you heard of the logical fallacy of ad hominem?

 

[nonsumd]

Why don’t you ask an Eyptian Copt to tell you about the brotherhood between Islam and Christianity, between Muslims and Christians? Or do you think this Copt is too personally involved to be rational?

This seems a point that needs answering.

I do not deny that Christians are persecuted in many Islamic countries, but that is not the only way Muslims have treated Christians in history or nowadays. We Christians should be demanding reciprocity from Muslim states, just as Pope Benedict, virtually alone in the world has done.

There are some Christians living in Muslim-majority countries who say that they have got nothing but persecution and oppression from Muslims.

Yet there are also Christians living in Muslim countries who say that Muslims have treated them well sometimes individuals more than the state, sometimes the state more than individuals).

There are those who say that their experience has been mixed.

In many cases, local Christians have been caught between Muslim radicals and colonial/neocolonial Western powers.

In modern times, Muslim oppression of Christian minorities has grown proportionately to the pressure Western states have put on Muslim societies. When Iraq was an obedient client of the US, Iraqi Christians were quite safe. It was when the US occupied Iraq that Iraqi Christians began to be ethnically cleansed by Muslim radicals.

We Christians had our own versions of dhimmitude till recently. Jews, Muslims, and heretics were second-class citizens and often persecuted in Christian societies. Protestants in Catholic societies, Catholics in Protestant societies all suffered discrimination and even martyrdom. The Jews before they lost political independence treated non-Jews within Isreal as inferior and indeed from time to time engaged in ethnic cleansing.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Thanks nonsumd,
I have two points to say to your long reply:

1. Discrimination by Christians of minorities is not sanctioned by Jesus Christ.

Christians may have done this to blacks, Jews etc. but in no way is true Christianity to blame because this goes against the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In contrast, Muslim discrimination and oppression of minorities is not only sanctioned but TAUGHT as the moral divinely sanctioned behavior by Muhammad.

They are two different things. i think Christians have come to see that discrimination and oppression of minorities is wrong. But Muslims will never see this because it is in their holy scriptures and the teachings of their prophet.

1. The fact that some Christians are treated well by Muslims in Muslim countries does not absolve Islam because of the core teachings in the scriptures and behavior of their prophet.

It just means that some Muslims have retained sufficient innate morality to disobey their prophet. If they obeyed their prophet, life is hell on earth for Christians.

Just ask the Copts.

 

[nonsumd]

Thanks, Rodrigo, for requoting me so completely in your posts.

The juxtapositions make my case without my even having to reply!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Thank you very much, nonsumd, for this stimulating discussion.

I think I will stop here as my Catholic friends here are worried that I’m getting carried away. They have my best interest at heart and I do thank them for that.

Good luck and best wishes,
Rodrigo