[Bishop Williamson] threatened with expulsion [by SSPX]

[TMC]

According to the AP, the SSPX has threatened to expel Bishop Williamson, apparently because they are unhappy with the way he is defending himself:

[Bishop Williamson] is facing expulsion from his traditionalist order for hiring a lawyer linked to the neo-Nazi movement.

The Society of St. Pius X said it ordered Bishop Richard Williamson to fire the lawyer, who was to represent him in an appeal next week of a German incitement conviction for saying in a TV interview that he didn’t believe Jews were gassed during World War II.

…

In a statement Monday, [Bishop] Fellay ordered Williamson to fire the lawyer and “not allow himself to become an instrument of political theses that are completely foreign to his mission as a Catholic bishop serving in the Society of St. Pius X.”

google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jHvwhqB6k1rTUYHBXfr_xjrdkv4Q?docId=001eaec59ced4a75a50053c330838d61

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Ok, His Grace, Bishop Williamson may have some very misguided views on history but he is still a bishop. Though the SSPX has good reason to distance itself from Neo-Nazism a mans political and historical beliefs are not a good enough reason to kick him out of a religious order or society unless they are heretical and completely against Church teaching. Nazism is against Church teaching but Bishop Williamson is no Nazi.

 

[Vico]

Ok, His Grace, Bishop Williamson may have some very misguided views on history but he is still a bishop. Though the SSPX has good reason to distance itself from Neo-Nazism a mans political and historical beliefs are not a good enough reason to kick him out of a religious order or society unless they are heretical and completely against Church teaching. Nazism is against Church teaching but Bishop Williamson is no Nazi.

Back in the beginning of 2009, Father Florian Abrahamowicz was expelled for something similar, expressing his own un-official opinions.

 

[At_Trent]

youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM

Bishop Williamson did not deny Jews were killed in concentration camps. He expressed doubt they were gassed. He did doubt the numbers reported.

I think his choice of attorney is a bit over the top, and I think he should have known better than to discuss his opinion with those who would/may betray confidence. But if we are to discuss the matter, at least know the facts regarding what he said. They are right there in the video.

 

[TMC]

Ok, His Grace, Bishop Williamson may have some very misguided views on history but he is still a bishop. Though the SSPX has good reason to distance itself from Neo-Nazism a mans political and historical beliefs are not a good enough reason to kick him out of a religious order or society unless they are heretical and completely against Church teaching. Nazism is against Church teaching but Bishop Williamson is no Nazi.

I believe the issue is probably as much obedience as anything else.

 

[TMC]

youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM

Bishop Williamson did not deny Jews were killed in concentration camps. He expressed doubt they were gassed. He did doubt the numbers reported.

I think his choice of attorney is a bit over the top, and I think he should have known better than to discuss his opinion with those who would/may betray confidence. But if we are to discuss the matter, at least know the facts regarding what he said. They are right there in the video.

I don’t believe that this is an accurate description of the bishop’s controversial statements. That said, my intention in starting this thread was not to reopen discussions about the bishop’s past statements, but to discuss the fact that the SSPX may expel him and see what people think of that, if anything.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Back in the beginning of 2009, Father Florian Abrahamowicz was expelled for something similar, expressing his own un-official opinions.

Wow, his views on history got him kicked out of the SSPX. Beautiful, I love the SSPX:heart: but that was just wrong . I know and understand why Traditionalists need to distance ourselves from the far-right but its Roman Catholicism not Historicism. Maby JFK conspiracy theorists should be denied communion next…

 

[At_Trent]

I don’t believe that this is an accurate description of the bishop’s controversial statements. That said, my intention in starting this thread was not to reopen discussions about the bishop’s past statements, but to discuss the fact that the SSPX may expel him and see what people think of that, if anything.

Well, we can take his own words and go with them, or we can go with the media’s “twist”.

But, as sure as we are sitting here, someone would state falsehoods. That’s why I posted it.
Just trying to spare the man of the impending Calumny
newadvent.org/cathen/03190c.htm

Edit: And I did express my opinion. I actually sympathize with the SSPX position on the matter. The choice of attorney, while Bishop Williamson’s right, is imprudent imo. Perhaps he seeks Martyrdom.

 

[TMC]

Well, we can take his own words and go with them, or we can go with the media’s “twist”.

But, as sure as we are sitting here, someone would state falsehoods. That’s why I posted it.
Just trying to spare the man of Calumny
newadvent.org/cathen/03190c.htm

I am sure you are not accusing me of calumny, as there is certainly nothing I have said that could fall into that category. Still, there would be no chance of calumny if you would not insist on reopening this topic. As I am sure you are aware, the bishop has spoken out on the Holocaust more than once, and some of his comments have been highly controversial, to say the least. I am sensitive to speaking ill of clergy on this forum, so I would rather not get into this argument. Why don’t we agree to drop it and address the topic of the thread?

 

[At_Trent]

I am sure you are not accusing me of calumny, as there is certainly nothing I have said that could fall into that category. Still, there would be no chance of calumny if you would not insist on reopening this topic. As I am sure you are aware, the bishop has spoken out on the Holocaust more than once, and some of his comments have been highly controversial, to say the least. I am sensitive to speaking ill of clergy on this forum, so I would rather not get into this argument. Why don’t we agree to drop it and address the topic of the thread?

Re-read my posts. No one has yet. That is why I posted the video, lest they do.

Anyhow, you can’t separate the statements of H.E. from the topic. But, I gave my opinion, and I’ll agree to say no more. Carry on

 

[archangel04]

Until I hear about Bishop Willaimson a year ago I had no idea the “traditionalist” Catholics where som how tied or sympathetic to the Nazi movement, according to many anti-Catholics and modern catholics. It’s amazing how we can’t prosecute Richard Dawkins for his statements, but they can prosecute a Bishiop for his opinion, although I disagree with his opinion this sounds more on an attack on his traditional stance.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Wow, his views on history got him kicked out of the SSPX. Beautiful, I love the SSPX:heart: but that was just wrong . I know and understand why Traditionalists need to distance ourselves from the far-right but its Roman Catholicism not Historicism. Maby JFK conspiracy theorists should be denied communion next…

I think you are wrong in implying that the “far-right” and anit-holocaust views are the same thing.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Until I hear about Bishop Willaimson a year ago I had no idea the “traditionalist” Catholics where som how tied or sympathetic to the Nazi movement, according to many anti-Catholics and modern catholics. It’s amazing how we can’t prosecute Richard Dawkins for his statements, but they can prosecute a Bishiop for his opinion, although I disagree with his opinion this sounds more on an attack on his traditional stance.

If I remember correctly Herr Dawkins said Hitler may very well be right and if we can find the homosexual gene in a fetus it is a valid reason for abortion. His Grace merely questioned the number of Holocaust victims and the purpose of building in Auschwitz. Who said worse comments? Who is suffering the greater penalty? Are they the same person?(No)

 

[TMC]

Until I hear about Bishop Willaimson a year ago I had no idea the “traditionalist” Catholics where som how tied or sympathetic to the Nazi movement, according to many anti-Catholics and modern catholics. It’s amazing how we can’t prosecute Richard Dawkins for his statements, but they can prosecute a Bishiop for his opinion, although I disagree with his opinion this sounds more on an attack on his traditional stance.

In Germany they can and do prosecute Holocaust deniers of all stripes. I have seen no reason to believe that his traditionalist religious views have anything to do with the prosecution.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

I think you are wrong in implying that the “far-right” and anit-holocaust views are the same thing.

Yes, I know. I might be “far right” but I do not condone racism much less the Holocaust. However most (or at least most I know ) fail to make the distinction.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

In Germany they can and do prosecute Holocaust deniers of all stripes. I have seen no reason to believe that his traditionalist religious views have anything to do with the prosecution.

Did His Grace actually say this in Germany? To my knowledge no. It’s only because his interviews are (and have been) viewed in Germany. Mr. Dawkins’ speeches and retoric are viewable in Germany has he been prosicuted?

 

[TMC]

Did His Grace actually say this in Germany? To my knowledge no. It’s only because his interviews are (and have been) viewed in Germany. Mr. Dawkins’ speeches and retoric are viewable in Germany has he been prosicuted?

To my knowledge Richard Dawkins is not a Holocaust denier, is he?

I don’t know the details of how Germany came to prosecute the bishop, but my understanding is that he is physically in Germany, so that may have something to do with it. I also know that Germany has a long history of vigorously prosecuting Holocaust deniers regardless of their politics. For example, Germany convicted radical leftist Horst Mahler of Holocaust denial last year. Mahler was at least as far left as Bishop Williamson is right, but he was prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. The bishop is only facing a fine.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

To my knowledge Richard Dawkins is not a Holocaust denier, is he?

I don’t know the details of how Germany came to prosecute the bishop, but my understanding is that he is physically in Germany, so that may have something to do with it. I also know that Germany has a long history of vigorously prosecuting Holocaust deniers regardless of their politics. For example, Germany convicted radical leftist Horst Mahler of Holocaust denial last year. Mahler was at least as far left as Bishop Williamson is right, but he was prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. The bishop is only facing a fine.

Ok, good point. Still he shouldn’t get kicked out of the SSPX for it.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Really? He did say this and I will find links and quotes if you like.

 

[At_Trent]

Amazing. The man says hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed in concentration camps and he’s a Holocaust denier.

What should we do to him ? Tie him to the back of a Israeli tank and drag him back and forth from the Lebanese border to the Gaza strip ?