Bishop's Murder Should Not Hurt Islam Dialogue: Pope

[Jules_Dell]

Just a side note here, since this could be a whole nuther thread: after reading history on the Crusades, I’m amazed that Muslims have been allowed to hijack the narrative, and that Western schoolchildren are fed the bogus storyline. I just read a fascinating book on the history of the Templars. I was struck by the treachery of Muslims, who time and time again, promised safe passage out of beseiged castles and then massacred the inhabitants. The film, The Kingdom of Heaven, was real distortion.

Here are a few quotes ,by three so called moderate muslims in my country Scotland.

A well known muslim owner of a large foods factory.Mohamat will return and destroy all the crosses.

A muslim store owner in my town.We can get your women anytime ,but you will never get ours.

Another well known muslim.We can get ,and have got,your churches,and change them into mosques,but you will never get our mosques and change them into churches.

When i was in Bulgaria,i witnessed the left legacy of the occupant Ottoman Turks,who decreed that many Christian Churches,had to be built,partially below ground level,this was to show the Islamic Ottomans supremacy and dominance over the Christians .
It took hundreds of years for Bulgaria ,with their alliance of Russia Romania Sweden Serbia,etc,to rid Bulgaria of the Islamic scourge,now it seems Islamic Turkey will enter EU.
The Turks will then swamp Europe,without the sword,which they could not fully do with the sword under the Ottomans.
And what will happen then?
Its frightening,very frightening

 

[Coleski]

It’s going to get ugly before its over. The end is getting closer. Dialouge with certain ideologies is a rat hole that leads to more rats. Rats are a metaphor for fallen humans. We are running around yelling peace peace and there is no peace. Peace comes from obeying the true word of God. Know your faith and philosophy deeply before you even attempt dialouge or you may come out losing your faith to the all the faiths are the same way of thinking. They are not. Christians do not cut off the hands of those they disagree with; and if they did in the past, and they did, they did so in violation of Jesus’ commands.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Yes, the synod is scheduled to take place from 10 to 24 October 2010:** “The Catholic Church in the Middle East: Communion and Witness.**

The Instrumentum laboris was distributed in Cyprus. Bishop Padovese, who was involved in ecumenical work and in the dialogue with Islam, was murdered just before he was due to leave for Cyprus.
…

Thanks for the information regarding the upcoming synod of bishops as instrumentum laboris.

We can say this about Pope Benedict: he tirelessly puts one foot in front of the other, in walking on the bridges that his predecessor built towards peace with Muslims.

There was a huge setback when Muslims took offense with some passages in his Regensburg address in Germany, leading to the killing of an Italian nun in Somalia, the beheading of Father Iskander in Mosul, burning of churches and his effigies in the West Bank and Iraq, and widespread attacks on Christians. [They did not like the Pope’s reference to the Byzantine emperor’s words in 1371 on Muhammad’s command “to spread the faith by the sword” – in other words the use of violence in conversion efforts. So what did these Muslims do? Exactly that – they used violence to show their protest!]

Laying the groundwork for the Catholic-Muslim Dialogue following the Common Word Initiative with Muslim leaders was also arduous.

So it is remarkable that the Dialogue even took place on Nov 4 – 6, 2008 in Rome. If you have not tagged the document yet, here is the Final Statement of that Catholic-Muslim Dialogue.

As you will note, the Pope stayed on course, in getting the declarations include recognition of human dignity, equality of men and women, freedom to practice religion in private and in public, respect for the rights and practices of religious minorities, helping the poor an disadvantaged, education of the young, etc.

Accordingly, the Muslims hailed the part that said that religious founding figures and symbols considered sacred should not be subject to any form of mockery or ridicule.

Therefore, in taking the Pope’s message, Catholics have to agree that insulting drawings of Muhammad should not be done or encouraged. Will Muslims discern if any mockery is the work of secularists or Christians before they go on the warpath? Muslims have to realize that Catholics and Catholic beliefs are also targets of ridicule by secularists and anti-theists. Killing or threatening to kill for such offense is just not our style, as our faith does not teach it. The Lord God Jesus that we follow was mocked during torture until His human death on the Cross for all of mankind. He left us a theology of love and forgiveness.

Per the Statement, there is a plan to have a second Catholic-Muslim seminar to be held in a Muslim-majority country in approximately two years, which would be around the end of this year. We’ll have to wait for news if plans are under way, notwithstanding the murder in early June of Bishop Padovese, a Church leader involved with promoting peace with Islam.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I came across this illuminating article by Charles Kimball under the Oxford Islamic Studies Online site, discussing the development of Christian- Muslim dialogues.

It goes back to 1226 when St. Francis of Assisi visited the sultan of Egypt in the midst of the Crusades. The saint instructed his brothers to live among Muslims in peace, avoiding quarrels and disputes.

Mr. Kimball’s paper is lengthy but very interesting. Below are selected paragraphs, shortened and paraphrased in part for brevity, as it relates to the OP topic.

Developments in the 19th and 20th centuries set the stage for contemporary Muslim-Christian dialogue:

• Constantly improving transportation and communication facilitated international commerce and unprecedented levels of migration.
• Scholars gathered a wealth of information on diverse religious practices and belief systems.

Although Western studies of Islam were often far from objective, significant changes have occurred. With more accurate information in hand, many non-Muslim scholars concluded that Muḥammad was sincere and devout, challenging the prevailing Western view that he was a shrewd and sinister charlatan. Similarly, the scope and reliability of information on Christianity has broadened the horizons of many Muslim scholars during the past century.

• A factor contributing to the new context arose from the modern missionary movement among Western Christians. The experience of personal contact with Muslims and other people of faith led many missionaries to reassess their presuppositions.

Participants in the three twentieth-century world missionary conferences (Edinburgh in 1910, Jerusalem in 1928, and Tambaram [India] in 1938) wrestled with questions of witness and service in the midst of religious diversity. These conferences stimulated debate and paved the way for ecumenical efforts at interfaith understanding under the auspices of the World Council of Churches (WCC), founded in 1948.
Organized dialogue movement followed in the ‘50s when the WCC and the Vatican organized a number of meetings between Christian leaders and representatives of other religious traditions. These initial efforts resulted in the formation of new institutions. In 1964, toward the end of Vatican II, Pope Paul VI established a Secretariat for Non-Christian Religions to study religious traditions, provide resources, and promote interreligious dialogue through education and by facilitating local efforts by Catholics. Several major documents adopted at Vatican II focused on interfaith relations.

In the last quarter of the 20th century, Pope John Paul II was a strong advocate for the new approach to interfaith relations. During his papacy, JPII traveled to 117 countries. He often met with leaders from various religions, on his travels and in Rome. He was the first pope to visit a mosque (in Damascus in 2001). The spirit of his approach to Islam is evident in a 1985 speech delivered to over 80,000 Muslims at a soccer stadium in Casablanca:

“We believe in the same God, the one God, the Living God who created the world … In a world which desires unity and peace, but experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, should not believers come together? Dialogue between Christians and Muslims is today more urgent than ever. It flows from fidelity to God. Too often in the past, we have opposed each other in polemics and wars. I believe that today God invites us to change old practices. We must respect each other and we must stimulate each other in good works on the path to righteousness.”

Pope John Paul II reorganized the Secretariat for Non-Christian Religions and renamed it the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.

The World Council of Churches and Vatican began to publish books, articles, reports, working papers, and reviews by both Christians and Muslims.

By the ‘80s and ‘90s, other international organizations developed formal and informal programs for Muslim-Christian dialogue. The Muslim World League, the World Muslim Congress, and the Middle East Council of Churches are notable examples. At the local level, hundreds of interfaith organizations have facilitated dialogue programs.

[con’t]

 

[InSearchofGrace]

[con’t]

Intentional efforts to understand and cooperate are hopeful signs, particularly for religious communities with a history of mutual antipathy. But Muslims and Christians who advocate and engage in dialogue face many obstacles.

Many Muslims are wary because of the long history of enmity and the more recent experiences of colonialism. Contemporary political machinations involving the U.S. or other major Western powers also create problems for many would-be Muslim participants. Still other Muslims suspect that dialogue is a new guise for Christian missionary activity.

Some Christians argue that dialogue weakens or undermines Christian mission and witness. For many, the perception of Islam as inherently threatening is deeply ingrained; they are unwilling or unable to move beyond stereotypes or to distinguish between sympathetic and hostile counterparts in the other community.

The horrific Sept 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington marked a major turning point in Muslim-Christian relations. These and many subsequent developments in the U.S., Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and Israel/Palestine created both obstacles and opportunities for Muslim-Christian dialogue.

In the U.S., thousands of churches focused study programs on Islam; many initiated dialogue programs and constructive projects (e.g., churches, mosques and synagogues together building houses for low-income neighbors). Courses on Islam and interfaith relations increased dramatically in colleges and universities throughout North America. The concerted efforts to facilitate constructive dialogue during the previous half century provided an invaluable foundation for many.

At the same time, the voices of some highly audible Christian and Muslim leaders became more polemical. Those overtly rejecting the other religion as “false,” “demonic,” or “evil” found followings in their respective communities. The long history of misunderstanding, mistrust, and animosity continues to inform the attitudes of many people in both communities of faith.

Muslim-Christian dialogue represents a new and major effort to understand and cooperate with others in increasingly interdependent and religiously diverse countries. The newness of dialogue and the absence of conceptual clarity have required experimentation. Questions about planning, organization, representation, and topics need thoughtful consideration and careful collaboration. Through trial and error, advocates of interfaith dialogue in Asia, Africa, Europe, and North America continue to refine the process.

---

The refining of the dialogue process is evidently continuing and in place under Pope Benedict XVI, who is meeting unabated challenges head on. As with JPII, he deserves our fervent prayer during Te Igitur of each Mass we attend as Catholics, and in our private prayer. Viva il Papa!

 

[rcballi46]

Why are we so reticent to acknowledge that we are engaged in a struggle against Islam? This seems to be pretty clear. The killer, being the Bishop’s driver, was a trusted person. If this man couldn’t be trusted who can be?
atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/italian-bishop-beheaded-by-muslim-in-islamic-ritual.html

I don’t understand why our Church would want to engage in a dialoouge with this deranged ‘religion’.

I can hear the conversation now:

Benedict XVI (or his respresentative): “Peace be with you”
Muslim representative: “Convert or die, you infidel”.

Christians should, instead, unite against this Islamic threat - like they did before - this time with ‘friendly’ secular governments that share our concern (and have nuclear weapons). We must defend the Christian faith against these usurpers!

We can certainly pray for all people, regardless of faith, but we let those who would do us harm know, we are not going to roll over dead for them — enough cheek turning already!

Pope Bendedict XVI was correct about the violence of Islam in his Regensburg address a few years back. He did not back down - he was only shocked at the Muslims ‘reply’ - which validated what the Pope said in the first place. His trip to England, this passed week, was, in part, to unite the Christian world against the imminent threat of Islam to Europe. (Having a token Muslim attend his meeting with Non-Christian religious leaders was just a window dressing, a practice, I hope, will be discontinued.

We stopped the Japanese slaughter of Americans and the War in the Pacific with a couple of nuclear bombs - it will require something like that and it will require the forced evacuation of Muslims (yes, even the so-called ‘moderates’ from all Western countries, back to the Middle East - in order for the West not to become annihalated - keeping the Muslims in the Middle East under check (like the Soviet Union) with our superior weapons.

Appeasement does not work - watering down ones faith for the sake of ‘peace’, invites war! If the Muslims don’t allow Christians to worship freely and publicly in ‘Muslim countries’, then we should not extend that privilege to them in our countries. (The 1st Amendment applies only to Congress - it is a limit on its power: "Congress shall make no law … ", not to the rest of society).

 

[Jules_Dell]

I don’t understand why our Church would want to engage in a dialoouge with this deranged ‘religion’.

I can hear the conversation now:

Benedict XVI (or his respresentative): “Peace be with you”
Muslim representative: “Convert or die, you infidel”.

Christians should, instead, unite against this Islamic threat - like they did before - this time with ‘friendly’ secular governments that share our concern (and have nuclear weapons). We must defend the Christian faith against these usurpers!

We can certainly pray for all people, regardless of faith, but we let those who would do us harm know, we are not going to roll over dead for them — enough cheek turning already!

Pope Bendedict XVI was correct about the violence of Islam in his Regensburg address a few years back. He did not back down - he was only shocked at the Muslims ‘reply’ - which validated what the Pope said in the first place. His trip to England, this passed week, was, in part, to unite the Christian world against the imminent threat of Islam to Europe. (Having a token Muslim attend his meeting with Non-Christian religious leaders was just a window dressing, a practice, I hope, will be discontinued.

We stopped the Japanese slaughter of Americans and the War in the Pacific with a couple of nuclear bombs - it will require something like that and it will require the forced evacuation of Muslims (yes, even the so-called ‘moderates’ from all Western countries, back to the Middle East - in order for the West not to become annihalated - keeping the Muslims in the Middle East under check (like the Soviet Union) with our superior weapons.

Appeasement does not work - watering down ones faith for the sake of ‘peace’, invites war! If the Muslims don’t allow Christians to worship freely and publicly in ‘Muslim countries’, then we should not extend that privilege to them in our countries. (The 1st Amendment applies only to Congress - it is a limit on its power: "Congress shall make no law … ", not to the rest of society).

RCballie46
I agree with you 100% about the Muzzies and Islam.
But Pope has got to be very careful what he says about Islam,for retaliation by the muzzies in Pakistan Sudan and Muzzy Countries,where Christians are a small minority and have been persecuted for many years.
I hope Turkey does not get into EE,Scotland has enough Muzzies here mostly Pakistanis and Bangladeshs,they never mix with the Scots,and have their own ghettos,and Mosques are springing up everywhere,and you cant say a word against them,there was not one mosque in Scotland 50 years ago. Make no mistake about it,Islam is our danger to West,We kept the Ottomans out of Europe and Earlier with the Crusades,now we open the European doors to this evil,and let them walk in ,they now want their own laws,distinct frm Scots and British Laws
God help us all

 

[Coleski]

Islamic violence and extremism are strongly opposed by the Western right wing. In America, the Republican party stands against radical Islam with a vigorusly developed and implemented Foreign policy largely supported by the Democrats. Remember, we have been at War against radical Islam in one way or another since the 1970’s including several wars in Iraq and Afganistan. The left wing has trouble with this as they just don’t want to believe in ememies and violence except for our own violence. A deep and honest reading of history puts this deliberate ignorance to shame. However; Islam is not our only enemy as Christians. The Godless atheism that predominates our elite institutions certainly deserves the tilte Pope John Paul gave it, the culture of death. We need watch from more than one front like the one we face represented by the Richard Dawkins tirade against the Pope and Church.