Bishops Must Rebuke Pro-Abortion “Catholic” Groups in 2012 Election

  • Thread starter Thread starter juliee
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Then according to your analogy, some could consider social programs as proportionate reasons and vote for other candidates?

There’s no difference in the arguments, that I can see. The Church can protect itself and let millions of Catholics risk separating themselves from the Church and endanger their eternal salvation for social programs, over abortion. Catholics who say they voted for other candidates also mention other reasons, they feel proportionate. They specifically mention social programs to guarantee a quality of life for all, among those reasons.
According to my anology, you could consider anything that you have an axe to grind for. :rolleyes:

This applies to everyone else’s anologies. Now can we have some sort of understandable definition of what YOU mean by “anology”?:confused:

But until then, we will be kicking around words like “proportionality”, intrinsic", “well-formed conscious” and all the rest. Kicking them around with no real consenses as to actual meaning.:banghead:

This sad state of affairs will continue unless the USCCB can came up with something that is easy to understand. :sad_yes:
 
According to my anology, you could consider anything that you have an axe to grind for. :rolleyes:

This applies to everyone else’s anologies. Now can we have some sort of understandable definition of what YOU mean by “anology”?:confused:

But until then, we will be kicking around words like “proportionality”, intrinsic", “well-formed conscious” and all the rest. Kicking them around with no real consenses as to actual meaning.:banghead:

This sad state of affairs will continue unless the USCCB can came up with something that is easy to understand. :sad_yes:
You seem to say that the Church could not speak specifically, endorsing a specific candidate, because of it’s tax exempt status and the implications on it’s social programs. If that were the case, the Church would be placing that tax exempt status and it’s social programs above the issue that so many Catholics say that nothing can be placed above. I don’t see that as a viable example from the Church. If the issue could have nothing above it and many Catholics risk separation from the Church, and their eternal salvation, as other Catholics say, surely the Church would give us the unified voice to correct those type errors.

The last election’s guide was vague, as the article(s) state. The bishops were divided themselves. I’ve already seen people reference democrat bishops for the upcoming election. It seems we have bishops with different political support, both sides using their interpretations of writings from, now, the Pope. Some laypersons choose a side according to their own political bias, others see division and don’t want to speak ill of either side and view the individual supports as strictly secular.

The Church, according to my understanding, is not a democracy. We have a single shepherd to guide us all, bishops included, yet he hasn’t spoken one way or the other on the last outcome of the election, as so many laypersons have. He is the one that can point out error, and corrections, with the single, and unified, voice, especially on something he wrote, since the bishops find themselves in disagreement.

Without the single voice, Catholics cannot be declared wrong, one way or the other, in a secular election, in my opinion. All of us live in an amalgamated world, mixing spiritual with secular. Not everyone can be correct, but which side is placing secular before spiritual. One side says there is only one issue that outweighs all other issues, the other believes all issues must be weighed. It is up to their well formed faith based consciences to make the correct decision, without the single unified instruction. If it was the Father that empowered Pilate over Christ, how can we say it is not the Father that empowers our leaders today, according to His will? We all pray for His will to be done, and He answers prayers, even if the answer is no for some. We should have faith that His will is being done.

As Catholics we need to look to Rome for an answer and stop the divisions in the Church, especially over the secular world and without authority granted among laypersons. I am somewhat surprised, and taken aback, at the calls for some to be separated from the Church over worldly things, especially since no one can say the Church is not where corrections can be made.

If we don’t hear the one unified voice we cannot speculate that it means one way or the other. It would appear that the Church is leaving such decisions to each individual’s well formed faith based conscience and His will. The Church teaches that it’s wrong to force someone against their conscience and by inaction it appears the Church gives example of not forcing.
 
If we don’t hear the one unified voice we cannot speculate that it means one way or the other. It would appear that the Church is leaving such decisions to each individual’s well formed faith based conscience and His will. The Church teaches that it’s wrong to force someone against their conscience and by inaction it appears the Church gives example of not forcing.
Excellent post. I see the logic of not forcing or coercing prudential decisions on Catholics without regard to separation of Church & State arguments. Not just Faithful Citizenship, but even the Catechism, seems to be devoid of a sense of the specific gravity of various specific issues, though. Prudence, which I would describe as the application of reason weighing the specific gravity of various moral aspects of decision points, seems to be in the eye of the beholder. This makes sense in some ways. We are dependent on each other’s viewpoints to fill in the blanks for our own individual form of spiritual blindness inherited by original sin. In a real world, though, this lack of assigning a sense of specific gravity, instead of pass/fail descriptions, sure seems short of any practical advice. I once had a poll about what would Jesus do, in terms of a certain presidential election, and the general view was that Jesus wouldn’t even enter the polling booth. Without practical advice with a sense of specific gravity that is clear and straight-forward…
What is the use of instructing Catholics that it is their moral duty to vote?
Why can’t they just decide that they cannot make a decision given the options?
 
This sad state of affairs will continue unless the USCCB can came up with something that is easy to understand.
If this is true then this sad state of affairs will continue into the next millennium because the USCCB is politicized down to its foundations. These documents are not being prepared by people who don’t understand their implications but by those who understand perfectly how they will be received and interpreted. That’s the whole point for creating them in the first place.

I suppose it is possible to imagine a “proportionate issue” that could excuse voting for a pro-abortion politician, and in some very particular races they might actually have applied, but for House and Senate races in general - and for the presidency in particular - such issues did not exist. One key to the Faithful Citizenship document was that it created the “justifiable exception” category and then left it to the individual voter to fill in the category as he saw fit. The result was that over half of all Catholics voted for a presidential candidate who not only supported abortion in all of its guises but infanticide as well.

Clearly, the USCCB document was effective but that organization does not deserve the blame. They are political operatives just following their inclinations; it is the bishops who were responsible.

Ender

Ender
 
I understand the debate, but consider this statement concerning the author:

*Deal Hudson is president of Catholic Advocate in Washington, DC; Matt Smith is vice president. Catholic Advocate engages and encourages faithful Catholics to actively participate in the political process to support elected officials and policies that remain consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church. *%between%

Those who advocate following the Church’s teaching must be careful not disallow those teachings that they themselves do not agree with, like conscience. I think it is a problematic strategy for a layman to encourage obedience to the Church by standing against the shepherds. Whatever happens in 2012, the bishops should have the support of the faithful. Those that do not support them have no moral ground to complain against not following the Church.
 
This sad state of affairs will continue unless the USCCB can came up with something that is easy to understand. :sad_yes:
How about…

Would you vote for a candidate that promotes the practice of crucifying the most innocent by popular consensus, such as Jesus?

Or, would you vote for a candidate that promotes providing a government funding for “widows & orphans”, such as Mary?

What would Jesus & Mary do?
 
How about…

Would you vote for a candidate that promotes the practice of crucifying the most innocent by popular consensus, such as Jesus?

Or, would you vote for a candidate that promotes providing a government funding for “widows & orphans”, such as Mary?

What would Jesus & Mary do?
This is the choice many people believe they face but in fact the dilemma is misconstrued. The choice is not between Candidate A, who opposes moral evil X but supports moral evil Y, and Candidate B, who holds the opposite positions, but between candidates who have taken opposite positions on moral and prudential issues. Wanting to help widows and orphans gives us no insight on how best to do it, so taking opposite positions on specific policies affecting them is not a moral choice.

Supporting abortion is immoral. Opposing a policy someone promotes as helping widows and orphans is not - assuming one does so because he believes it is incorrect to do so. We cannot make a prudential issue a moral concern simply by uncharitably judging the reason someone opposes us. We are not choosing between Jesus and Mary; we are choosing between intrinsic evil and prudential opinion - and that choice doesn’t strike me as all that complicated.

Ender
 
Update on 23 July:

For those of you who have access to GOOGLE, you can go to GOOGLE NEWS. Among the options is to create your own news subjects. I have done this, with a catagory titled “Catholic Church”. So every day I get the latest news on the Catholic Church in the world. The good, the bad, and the ugly.:coffeeread:

Try this for a few weeks. If nothing else, you will see what the Catholic Church looks like to outsiders.:sad_yes:
 
When you look at the enormity of the national debt, and what it would take to pay it off within a reasonable timeframe, I just don’t understand the bishop’s take action items, especially in terms of government charity internationally! We are headed toward a scenario where we could collapse and default on our national loans. So we rob Peter to pay Paul on an international scale. I don’t get it. I was always taught that Robin Hood who was popular was still a robbing hood - that his actions were immoral.

faithfulcitizenship.org/resources/take_action
 
The problem is some Catholics have taken this “follow-your-conscience” thing too far. They appear to think that “X” is OK if you personally believe it is OK. This is rationalizing. It is also saying your conscience is infallible.
 
The problem is some Catholics have taken this “follow-your-conscience” thing too far. They appear to think that “X” is OK if you personally believe it is OK. This is rationalizing. It is also saying your conscience is infallible.
It’s following a ‘well formed faith based conscience’, based on Christ’s teachings through the scriptures and Church. It’s not thinking ‘X’ is okay, it’s thinking ‘X, Y and Z’ must be weighed to guarantee a quality of life for all, from conception to natural death.

In considering our consciences are fallible we turn to the infallible, in the Church, to specifically define ‘proportionate’ reasons, not what percentage of the clergy states one way or the other. We have a single voice that all should listen to, from laypersons to clergy.
 
This from the article:
"Why should a Catholic voter feel the weighty obligation to oppose “intrinsically evil acts” when the bishops themselves provide three different loopholes to put that concern aside?"Quite true. The USCCB voter’s guide was so vague and full of loopholes as to provide cover for pro-abortion politicians and Catholic groups which supported them. That’s a shame. It would have been better for them to publish nothing. A large number of bishops were individually quite outspoken in their condemnation of pro-abortion policies and in their urging of Catholic not to vote for pro-abortion politicians. That would have been less necessary with a clearer voters guide.

The entire history of the pro-abortion movement since 1973 has been unfortunately, replete with Catholics supporting pro-abortion politicians. That’s one reason we ended up in a culture of death.
 
It’s following a ‘well formed faith based conscience’, based on Christ’s teachings through the scriptures and Church. It’s not thinking ‘X’ is okay, it’s thinking ‘X, Y and Z’ must be weighed to guarantee a quality of life for all, from conception to natural death.

In considering our consciences are fallible we turn to the infallible, in the Church, to specifically define ‘proportionate’ reasons, not what percentage of the clergy states one way or the other. We have a single voice that all should listen to, from laypersons to clergy.
Well, that’s the party line. I know some liberal Catholics who voted for candidate “Ø” because their consciences told them that the election of candidate “Ø” would result in increased welfare spending, thus reducing the need for abortion. I think it was rationalization; what do you think?
 
Well, that’s the party line. I know some liberal Catholics who voted for candidate “Ø” because their consciences told them that the election of candidate “Ø” would result in increased welfare spending, thus reducing the need for abortion. I think it was rationalization; what do you think?
I don’t believe Christ, or His Church, takes ‘party lines’. Christ’s teachings and His Church are not a democracy. One voice ‘fulfills’ the law, for Catholics.

Forming a well formed faith based conscience cannot take place without ‘rationalization’, along with prayer. I’m sure that the rationalization ran much deeper for some; e.g. whether the opposing candidate was truthful or pandering to a bloc of voters, which candidate would support, or cut, social programs designed to help others in need, which candidate would expand, or attempt to control, the current wars, etc. The list could go on and on for some.

Laypersons have no authority in our Church. While the clergy has authority, they must follow the one voice. Without that one voice speaking it appears the one is giving guidance and accepting that people are following instruction seeking eternal salvation. If truly the 52% had endangered their salvation, and possible separation from His Church, wouldn’t the one voice be obligated to speak clearly to guide the flock into place?
 
I don’t believe Christ, or His Church, takes ‘party lines’. Christ’s teachings and His Church are not a democracy. One voice ‘fulfills’ the law, for Catholics.
And there is a reason for this: Political regimes come and go.
Forming a well formed faith based conscience cannot take place without ‘rationalization’, along with prayer. …
It can if it is based on reason.
Laypersons have no authority in our Church. While the clergy has authority, they must follow the one voice. Without that one voice speaking it appears the one is giving guidance and accepting that people are following instruction seeking eternal salvation. If truly the 52% had endangered their salvation, and possible separation from His Church, wouldn’t the one voice be obligated to speak clearly to guide the flock into place?
Sounds like you are asking the pope to come out for and against individual candidates.
 
Sounds like you are asking the pope to come out for and against individual candidates.
What would be wrong with it, if it were as many contend that everyone must vote one way, or the other, and to vote any other way would risk one from separation from His Church, or even their eternal salvation?

With the above question in mind, what would prevent the Holy Father from clarifying ‘proportionate’ reasons so that no one misunderstood and thereby not endorsing, or being against, an individual candidate?
 
What would be wrong with it, if it were as many contend that everyone must vote one way, or the other, and to vote any other way would risk one from separation from His Church, or even their eternal salvation?

With the above question in mind, what would prevent the Holy Father from clarifying ‘proportionate’ reasons so that no one misunderstood and thereby not endorsing, or being against, an individual candidate?
At least three reasons:
  1. If the pope were to endorse a particular candidate and later on that candidate was found to be committing some illegal acts, the pope would be accused of complicity;
  2. The IRS does not allow tax-exempt organizations to endorse or oppose individual candidates;
  3. Catholics resent being “told how to vote”. Some Catholics get their noses all bent out of shape at the mere sight of a “Vote Pro-Life” banner in the parish center. One Sunday, the Knights of Columbus were collecting signatures for a ballot initiative, and one parishioner started to rant and rave that, “I want this church taxed because it is mixing religion and politics!!!” I tried explaining that what they were doing was allowed because the issue was non-partisan. He would have nothing of it. Called me a “liar”.
 
At least three reasons:
  1. If the pope were to endorse a particular candidate and later on that candidate was found to be committing some illegal acts, the pope would be accused of complicity;
  2. The IRS does not allow tax-exempt organizations to endorse or oppose individual candidates;
  3. Catholics resent being “told how to vote”. Some Catholics get their noses all bent out of shape at the mere sight of a “Vote Pro-Life” banner in the parish center. One Sunday, the Knights of Columbus were collecting signatures for a ballot initiative, and one parishioner started to rant and rave that, “I want this church taxed because it is mixing religion and politics!!!” I tried explaining that what they were doing was allowed because the issue was non-partisan. He would have nothing of it. Called me a “liar”.
Not for an instance would I imagine the Church would place a tax exempt status above an clearly defined intrinsic evil, as many are saying voting for one candidate, or another, is. If that is truly the reason the Church does not speak, then it would be a poor example of ‘hold your noses and vote for ‘X’ political party’.

It seems the entire reason of this thread says there is not a unified and clear voice on how to vote. The resentment seems to lay with partisan politics for some.
 
It seems the entire reason of this thread says there is not a unified and clear voice on how to vote.
There isn’t a clear voice; that’s why so many of us have been so harsh in our criticism of the Faithful Citizenship document. It appears to have been purposely designed to be unclear and unhelpful.
The resentment seems to lay with partisan politics for some.
Yes, that’s one possibility. Another is an appropriate annoyance with a bad situation and little expectation that it will be rectified this fall when another iteration of a misleading document is anticipated.

Ender
 
There isn’t a clear voice; that’s why so many of us have been so harsh in our criticism of the Faithful Citizenship document. It appears to have been purposely designed to be unclear and unhelpful.
Or, is it possibly written that way on purpose, so that Catholics weigh the issues and vote according to their own consciences. The Church believes God works through each of us and it is possible there is no clear definitive answer when mixing the secular with the spiritual? We know the Church teaches against forcing others against their well formed faith based consciences. Maybe the document is vague because of those reasons.
Yes, that’s one possibility. Another is an appropriate annoyance with a bad situation and little expectation that it will be rectified this fall when another iteration of a misleading document is anticipated.

Ender
I can agree with this and would say we have to be supportive of each other and avoid taking our annoyances out on others.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top